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Property Market 2019

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    #3542
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Many small landlords were amateurs. an acceptable return for many of them was rent covering the mortgage. They viewed this as the tennant was paying for their asset. This asset would generate income for them upon retirement.
    the demonisation of landlords excessive taxation on these LL versus close to 0 tax for corporate landlords plus the RPZs killed the above practice

    And rightly so in many peoples views. There's a strong case for landlords and companies to have & rent a portfolio of properties as a business, a means of employing and generating incomes.

    But not for Sean or Sinead Citizen who wants someone else to fund their retirement nest egg.


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    #3543
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Absolutely! 100%.

    Why didn't they put up the rent in the preceding 4 years?

    Because they didn't want to? There was absolutely nothing whatsoever from stopping them putting it up.

    They didn't suddenly gain any new right to increase the rent. It didn't get any easier to increase the rent.

    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that your rent would not have increased anyway.


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    #3544
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    beauf wrote: »
    There used to be lots of reasons not to increase the rent.

    There are none now.

    Rather the opposite. The LL is penalized now if they don't.

    Like what?

    The reason landlords didn't feel the need to increase rent every single year was they were free to increase it by large amounts whenever they wanted. You could tell your tenant the rent was going up 10/20% next month, no problem. This is not hypothetical, this is what happened, and why RPZs were brought in.

    There was no epidemic of landlords not increasing rents, we wouldn't have RPZs if there was.

    Landlords will say "yes, having the security to increase the rent if we need to allowed us to not increase every year". Talking as if rent increases was just theoretical and rarely happened, just kept in the back pocket in case it's ever needed. In reality, it wasn't theoretical, they actually did it frequently, and rents soared as a result, so RPZs were brought in to put the brakes on.


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    #3545
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    rightmove wrote: »
    Awec I have been a tenant and LL simultaneously for most of last 10 years and I honestly think you dont see the effect of the policies. I knew as a tenant that my rent was going to increase because of the rpz and that I was going to have to get a grip on the sweet deal my tenants had

    I rented in Dublin from 2009 -> 2019. I saw (and lived) the effect of the policies.

    My rent increased 3 or 4 times in that period. I am not naive enough to think the only reason my rent increased was the RPZs. In fact, my landlord, one of the big property investment companies, didn't even put it up every year, which sort of blows this "RPZs guarantee a 4% increase every year" notion out of the water.

    Pre-RPZ I saw rent hikes of like 30% in 2 years. This is exactly why the RPZs were introduced.


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    #3546
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    awec wrote: »
    Like what?

    Its cheaper keeping a good tenant than picking up the pieces after a bad one.


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    #3547
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    beauf wrote: »
    Its cheaper keeping a good tenant than picking up the pieces after a bad one.

    Nobody is forcing them to put the rent up now. Why do you think it's more difficult to retain a good tenant in an RPZ?


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    #3548
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Absolutely! 100%.

    Why didn't they put up the rent in the preceding 4 years?

    The main reason is likely because the financial and housing landscape between 2012 and 2016 was very different to that of 2016 to 2019. Do you think they're comparable?


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    #3549
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    awec wrote: »
    Nobody is forcing them to put the rent up now. Why do you think it's more difficult to retain a good tenant in an RPZ?

    The RPZ forces them because a low rent is locked to the property not to the tenancy. Thus devalues the commercial value of that property.
    So to keep the property value line with similar properties, the rent also has to be inline.


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    #3550
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    aloooof wrote: »
    The main reason is likely because the financial and housing landscape between 2012 and 2016 was very different to that of 2016 to 2019. Do you think they're comparable?

    Exactly what I was going to say. I was renting a place in Ballsbridge back around 2014 for 1500p/m (and the landlord tried to put the rent up by over 10%, we said no and told them we'd move out, they relented and left it as it was). It would be well over 2k now. Just how the market has gone.


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    #3551
    youwhoglue
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭youwhoglue


    Lots of inaccuracies re Dublin rent prices, go straight to the daft report for the asking prices truth.
    https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2019q2-daftrentalprice
    https://www.daft.ie/report/2019-Q2-rental-daftreport.pdf
    Page 21 - See pic


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    #3552
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Outside Dublin is interesting, Galway city is back where as Limerick city is still rising


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    #3553
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    Because they didn't want to? There was absolutely nothing whatsoever from stopping them putting it up.

    They didn't suddenly gain any new right to increase the rent. It didn't get any easier to increase the rent.

    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that your rent would not have increased anyway.

    Exactly and they would have continued to not want to if the rent cap basically didn't tell landlords to put it up by 4% a year.


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    #3554
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Outside Dublin is interesting, Galway city is back where as Limerick city is still rising

    Galway city had increased by wholly improbable amounts- whereas Limerick did not. Galway was in bubble territory- and living on hot air- Limerick- which had not experienced commensurate increases- was not living in the rarefied territory that Galway was experiencing.

    Its entirely probable that Galway has a long way further to fall- but Limerick may be more sustainable in nature.........


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    #3555
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    youwhoglue wrote: »
    Lots of inaccuracies re Dublin rent prices, go straight to the daft report for the asking prices truth.
    https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2019q2-daftrentalprice
    https://www.daft.ie/report/2019-Q2-rental-daftreport.pdf
    Page 21 - See pic

    Those are asking rather than achieved prices.
    Many viewings are now like tumbleweed- sure, desirable areas have people fighting for properties- but many areas are no longer experiencing the demand that many landlords seem to think is their right......... Asking prices- and achieved prices- are two entirely different kettle of fish...........


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    #3556
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    awec wrote: »
    Nobody is forcing them to put the rent up now. Why do you think it's more difficult to retain a good tenant in an RPZ?

    Thats not the point.

    The point is many landlords were perfectly happy to keep a good tenant- and willing to leave the rent be, as they appreciated the good relationship they had with their tenant. Now- a future tenant is entitled to freeload on the goodwill generated by a prior tenant. QED- the current decent tenant does not get the goodwill they would previously have enjoyed- as a landlord cannot trust that they will have a commensurate good relationship with a future tenant.

    Its called the law of unintended consequences.


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    #3557
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Exactly and they would have continued to not want to if the rent cap basically didn't tell landlords to put it up by 4% a year.

    It doesn't tell them this at all.

    It tells them if they want to up the rent, the maximum they can up it by is 4%.


  • Options
    #3558
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Thats not the point.

    The point is many landlords were perfectly happy to keep a good tenant- and willing to leave the rent be, as they appreciated the good relationship they had with their tenant. Now- a future tenant is entitled to freeload on the goodwill generated by a prior tenant. QED- the current decent tenant does not get the goodwill they would previously have enjoyed- as a landlord cannot trust that they will have a commensurate good relationship with a future tenant.

    Its called the law of unintended consequences.

    Given the soaring rents that forced RPZs to be introduced, I fear this notion of rents being left be was nowhere near as widespread as you want us to believe.

    Rents hit their lowest around December 2011. Between then, and RPZs being introduced in December 2016, rents had risen around 50%. By 2016 we were above peak Tiger prices.


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    #3559
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    It doesn't tell them this at all.

    It tells them if they want to up the rent, the maximum they can up it by is 4%.

    I wonder how many people in Dublin, surrounding areas have not had a 4% increase? Any 1% increases? Highly doubt!

    I even see landlords phrasing it like "due to government legislation we are raising the rent by 4%."


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    #3560
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    I wonder how many people in Dublin, surrounding areas have not had a 4% increase? Any 1% increases? Highly doubt!

    I even see landlords phrasing it like "due to government legislation we are raising the rent by 4%."

    On two occasions, my landlord (one of the big investment companies) didn't increase my rent despite being completely entitled to an extra 4%.

    Of course, as I already said, there are some losers in RPZs. But we shouldn't try to pretend like this is anything other than a fraction of tenants. As said already, RPZs were designed to work make things a lot better for the vast majority, even if it made things a bit worse for the minority.

    When making policy governments don't focus on wee Jimmy who has a handy relationship with his landlord, they look at things far more broadly. Int he case of rents, they were absolutely soaring year on year.


  • Options
    #3561
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    On two occasions, my landlord (one of the big investment companies) didn't increase my rent despite being completely entitled to an extra 4%.

    Of course, as I already said, there are some losers in RPZs. But we shouldn't try to pretend like this is anything other than a fraction of tenants. As said already, RPZs were designed to work make things a lot better for the vast majority, even if it made things a bit worse for the minority.

    When making policy governments don't focus on wee Jimmy who has a handy relationship with his landlord, they look at things far more broadly. Int he case of rents, they were absolutely soaring year on year.

    Why 4% at all then? Why not 1% or 0%? Rents were already soaring 3 years ago.


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    #3562
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Why 4% at all then? Why not 1% or 0%? Rents were already soaring 3 years ago.

    Because there has to be a balance between giving tenants some level of stability, and allowing landlords to increase rent to cover increased costs and take some advantage of increased demand.


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    #3563
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    youwhoglue wrote: »
    Lots of inaccuracies re Dublin rent prices, go straight to the daft report for the asking prices truth.
    https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2019q2-daftrentalprice
    https://www.daft.ie/report/2019-Q2-rental-daftreport.pdf
    Page 21 - See pic

    Maybe I'm not seeing it, but those reports don't seem to mention how this aligns with population growth and immigration and emigration..

    ... Which is the demand. Because the shortage is not simply a supply issue. It's a increasing demand issue.


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    #3564
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Also the population movement within the country.


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    #3565
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    awec wrote: »
    ...

    ....Of course, as I already said, there are some losers in RPZs. But we shouldn't try to pretend like this is anything other than a fraction of tenants. As said already, RPZs were designed to work make things a lot better for the vast majority, even if it made things a bit worse for the minority.

    When making policy governments don't focus on wee Jimmy who has a handy relationship with his landlord, they look at things far more broadly. Int he case of rents, they were absolutely soaring year on year....

    They still are. The difference its increasing more slowly in areas already at top prices, and much faster in the rest of the country as it catches up.

    The main issue is supply and demand...

    https://extra.ie/2019/05/14/news/irish-news/rental-market-starved-of-supply/amp


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    #3566
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Outside Dublin is interesting, Galway city is back where as Limerick city is still rising

    Galway city had increased by wholly improbable amounts- whereas Limerick did not. Galway was in bubble territory- and living on hot air- Limerick- which had not experienced commensurate increases- was not living in the rarefied territory that Galway was experiencing.

    Its entirely probable that Galway has a long way further to fall- but Limerick may be more sustainable in nature.........

    As recently as 2016,Galway was 40% more expensive than Limerick, the gap is less than 10% now and rents are every bit as high in Limerick today


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    #3567
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭rightmove


    awec wrote: »
    I rented in Dublin from 2009 -> 2019. I saw (and lived) the effect of the policies.

    My rent increased 3 or 4 times in that period. I am not naive enough to think the only reason my rent increased was the RPZs. In fact, my landlord, one of the big property investment companies, didn't even put it up every year, which sort of blows this "RPZs guarantee a 4% increase every year" notion out of the water.

    Pre-RPZ I saw rent hikes of like 30% in 2 years. This is exactly why the RPZs were introduced.

    Ok so tenant view only as I mentioned. I saw both sides of the coin


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    #3568
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭rightmove


    awec wrote: »
    It doesn't tell them this at all.

    It tells them if they want to up the rent, the maximum they can up it by is 4%.

    Ofcourse it tells them . Seriously like!!


  • Options
    #3569
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    Has anyone seen the figures for the % of 2nd hand homes the councils are buying. Why aren't the council building houses was that not the way it used to be?


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    #3570
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 963 ✭✭✭Greyian


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/dublin-house-prices-now-falling-for-first-time-in-seven-years-1.4016008

    First decline in house prices (on an annual basis) in Dublin since October 2012.


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    #3571
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Behind Paywall. What is this report, its probably published somewhere else.

    I don't think anyone will be surprised by this.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/residential-property-prices-edged-up-in-year-to-july-38491575.html


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