Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

gmisk wrote: »

Its already been mentioned here a lot but that is really unlikely seemingly as in UK they use FPTP.

FPTP's strength is also its weakness. It is designed for a two-party system in a stable political environment. The UK is a very, very long way from that now, which means that "anything's possible" ... and indeed, the "impossible" has already happened in at least one seat (Canterbury's forever-safe Tory seat being lost to Labour in 2017).

When you infuse a bucket of newly-registered young pro-Remain voters into a mix of older, hard-core never-waverers, and then add Leaver Tory voters, Remainer Labour voters, disillusioned abstentionists, protest voters against the failure to respect "democracy" and a bus-load of easily swayed gullibles who walked past a carefully placed billboard-ad on their way to the polling station ... FPTP means you don't need the butterfly to flap its wings too energetically in some forgotten constituency to cause a hurricane in Westminster.

Without any regard for seat-by-seat polling, I'm pretty sure the next UK government will be a rainbow coalition ... and I wouldn't be surprised if such an alliance comes with the promise of both a Scotish Independence referendum and steps towards some kind of PR for future elections.

Labour should say to BJ they will vote for an election via a short bill requiring only a majority in the HOC rather than two thirds as long as they can amend it and insert the date of November 1st or later. And after the blocking no deal bill is the law of the land. Of course then Boris won't immediately agree to this, but then what will he do? He's only been a "proper" PM in my eyes i.e. under the scrutiny of people other than his right wing media chums for a couple of days and already the show is unravelling at serious speed.

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

In a seat that'd elect a donkey with a blue rosette and no chance of deselection.

Water John wrote: »

Forty Seven you need to read up Edmund Burke. An MP is basically elected by the people whom they entrust to exercise, good judgement. An elected MP doesn't even have to reflect the views of the majority of his constituents on any given issue. Just need to bring their best judgement to the subject.
No a voter doesn't elect a party, in UK or Ireland. You do have list systems in some other countries.

Indeed, there seems to be a complete misconception that an MP is answerable only to the people who voted for him / her. The MP represents the people of the entire constituency and therefore it is irrelevant if they change party at some point.

Tell me how wrote: »

Farage attempted to win a seat in Westminster 7 times, across 6 different constituencies.

Including losing to a dolphin. A dolphin.

It was the time when he ran against the speaker, John Bercow, iirc.

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

Just wondering if you found the answer yet to the question of how the EU is restricting your freedom and cite those laws as well as they impact us here as well and it would be great to know what they are.

As for Brexit, this tweet sums it up really,

https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1169590695088271366?s=20

That is one of the members of the House of Lords commenting that article 50 seems to say the EU has to give the UK a deal. Problem? One of the authors of article 50 is sitting right behind her and shaking his head and laughing as she is saying this.

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

You vote on policy not party. Many would have campaigned on a deal. And yet here is Boris shutting down negotiations (not that May kept up much) and trying to force through no deal. The conservatives did not stand on no deal in 2017. They did not stand on reduced parlimentery sovereignty. Up until the last week or two Boris was still talking about no deal being a million to one (even as he attempted to force it through via any trick he could use to get around the democratically elected parliment).

Should Boris have to step down? He fairly well 180 degree turned on the no prorogue thing which was his policy.

If someone feels that their party has drifted too far from what they campaigned on they have a duty to leave if they wish to respect their voters. This should not cost them their job. If anything anyone not jumping ship in this case should face a by election as they are not standing what they were elected on.

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

Except that in Ireland the representation of independents is around 15% of the seats in the Dail, and in the UK you are lucky to see one elected in total out of 651. So while you may be correct that people do vote for their party, the system in Ireland encourages more people with independent thought and not bound to a central party, which surely is a good thing as it would encourage less entrenchment of positions, I think.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If ''No Deal Brexit'' passes into law, is it there for good? Even with a new PM in place. Does it confirm once and for all that there can never be a 'No Deal Brexit''

It can be repealed by a new government as you cannot be bound by the previous decisions. I guess mostly laws like this is just accepted and people move onto the next item for discussion, but seeing as this would effectively be an opposition motion you can bet it would be in the firing line for the Tories at the next election.

I guess the same as same-sex marriage or the abortion laws, they can be changed by why go through the hassle of it when most has already forgotten about them.

Also it obviously doesn't stop no deal? It just requires he asks for an extension, which I'm guessing the EU will want a good reason. We need to move out of limbo and get on with developing our bloc with or without the UK and I'm betting Boris is not goinv to sell any reason when he doesn't actually want one...

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The problem with the Irish system is that it encourages parochialism, the national interest is often secondary, particularly among backbenchers.

To be fair, the same can be said of pretty much any election. People vote for their members of Congress based on what they get promised, or for Commons based on how much so-and-so has improved their quality of life.

It isn't a problem with the Irish system, it's one of the endemic problems with democracy. People notice what effects them directly more easily and readily.

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'd rather have a few politicians in our Dail who are actually concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in

Except that the problem in Ireland is that you have some TDs (Lowry, The Healy-Raes etc.) who are only concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in and couldn't care less about the national interest.

Perfect example of this is one of the regular items they do in the papers when they analyse the amount of speaking time of a Deputy in the Dail. To no-ones surprise Michael Lowry had the worst record. When the paper contacted him he said something to the effect that "I'm not here to speak in Dail, I'm here to represent my constituents".

The effect is that TDs behave like super county-councillors with little regard to the national interest, and makes one wonder if the Irish electorate know what a national election is for.