Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

megatron989 · 02-09-2019 04:31PM

Does it not bother anyone in the leave side (or here) that the parties are happy to accept the ref result, even though it's blatantly obvious to the whole world that they were lied to over and over???
That's not normal. We'd riot here. In fact, in very democratic fashion we've revoted on referendum in the past when it was seen that people didn't understand the first time. We didn't vote wrong, we were misled or misguided by bad information.
What's happening in the UK right now is shocking, it's hard to believe that a population could be so easily led, literally the dogs licking at their masters ankles.
Madness.

ToBeFrank123 · 02-09-2019 04:32PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Like the Leader of the Opposition promising to block No Deal and run a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option?

Happened today, in case you missed it.

He had plenty of chances before to block No Deal like voting for the WA and backstop. He missed those chances. And now when it looks to be too late he's in favour of blocking No Deal.

He's coming across as a spoofer, in favour or against things, when there's no danger of him having to follow through. There isn't a hope of any of those things.

There was momentum towards a neutral caretaker Prime Minister to block No Deal but he got in the way of that too by insisting he'd be that Prime Minister. There was never a hope of that being accepted.

Bit cynical · 02-09-2019 04:33PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Unfortunately as always, FPTP would show its worthlessness, Alliance would need a far greater surge to actually gain any sizable number of seats.

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

SeaBreezes · 02-09-2019 04:35PM

Sorry if this question is incredibly dense, but how is it possible to hold an election
In 6 weeks but not a referdum on the actual issue?

prawnsambo · 02-09-2019 04:36PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

I don't think Farage minds losing his job if his version of Brexit is achieved. He can write his memoirs or run a pub or whatever. He probably doesn't want to lose his job without achieving Brexit however.

This isn't some ideological crusade for Farage. That man has skin in the game of some sort or other. Far too many dodgy friends and acquaintances on the other side of the Atlantic, never mind in Putinland. Even popped into the Ecuadorian embassy on occasion iirc. And of course him being financed by Arron Banks. Might have started off as an ideology, but I doubt it.

For Forks Sake · 02-09-2019 04:38PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

Of course he has, what is it - five times- he's run for Westminster unsuccessfully at this stage?

Zubeneschamali · 02-09-2019 04:38PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

He had plenty of chances before to block No Deal like voting for the WA and backstop. He missed those chances. And now when it looks to be too late he's in favour of blocking No Deal.

So he had plenty of chances to avoid No Deal by backing Tory policy, I see.

Perhaps somewhat in conflict with his job as leader of the Labour Party, charged with delivering Labour Party policy, generally not completely in synch with Tory policy on every detail.

farmchoice · 02-09-2019 04:39PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

i am convinced that johnson or no other senior tory will ever deal with farage and his various parties. the torys for all their shortcomings are one of the worlds oldest and most successful political parties. they are an elephant and farage is a flea.

to get into bed with the likes of farage and tice and arron banks would be so far beneath them as to be unthinkable. they dont say it but id say they would sooner see corbyn in power than share it with the Headers in the brexit party.

prawnsambo · 02-09-2019 04:39PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Sorry if this question is incredibly dense, but how is it possible to hold an election
In 6 weeks but not a referdum on the actual issue?

Mostly because the machinery of elections is well-oiled and settled. Referendums are complicated because they require legislation to start with. All the legislative bits on elections are already written. And then there's the whole registration of interested parties in referendums. They aren't the same as the political parties which are well established.

Bit cynical · 02-09-2019 04:40PM

megatron989 wrote: »

Does it not bother anyone in the leave side (or here) that the parties are happy to accept the ref result, even though it's blatantly obvious to the whole world that they were lied to over and over???
That's not normal. We'd riot here. In fact, in very democratic fashion we've revoted on referendum in the past when it was seen that people didn't understand the first time. We didn't vote wrong, we were misled or misguided by bad information.

I think in Ireland in the case of the Nice and Lisbon treaty referendums which were rerun, the impetus to run them again came from the national leadership or above, not the grass roots.

Stop moaning ffs · 02-09-2019 04:40PM

They’ve just scratched out the parts about the backstop. Hilarious.

Burke’s quote comes to mind (amended to include the backstop)
It was true then and it’s true now

‘the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland(and the backstop) which is to hear no more about it.’

trellheim · 02-09-2019 04:44PM

yep twitter starting to heat up now.... Sam Coates getting some exclusives and being retrweted

Stop moaning ffs · 02-09-2019 04:44PM

That’s surprising to me

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1168548005634555904?s=21

is_that_so · 02-09-2019 04:48PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mostly because the machinery of elections is well-oiled and settled. Referendums are complicated because they require legislation to start with. All the legislative bits on elections are already written. And then there's the whole registration of interested parties in referendums. They aren't the same as the political parties which are well established.

And that's in countries who know how to run them. This is Britain we're talking about!

trellheim · 02-09-2019 04:48PM

Peter foster agreeing with Sam Coates -

I just asked senior source on this who is across detail. Response? &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;

Apparently there is, technically a 'legal text', but it's just the old backstop "with all the important bits crossed out"...it "took about half an hour". #BrexitPeter Foster added,

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster

is_that_so · 02-09-2019 04:51PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s surprising to me

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1168548005634555904?s=21

This is the risk he faces. It could be good or a disaster.

ToBeFrank123 · 02-09-2019 04:51PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The SNP have called the referendum and the result illegitimate from day one (35 votes in the HoC)

Source?

Bit cynical · 02-09-2019 04:51PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

This isn't some ideological crusade for Farage. That man has skin in the game of some sort or other. Far too many dodgy friends and acquaintances on the other side of the Atlantic, never mind in Putinland. Even popped into the Ecuadorian embassy on occasion iirc. And of course him being financed by Arron Banks. Might have started off as an ideology, but I doubt it.

But even with dodgy money and even dodgier characters involved, that doesn't mean that for Farage personally it isn't an ideological crusade.

But regardless of whether it is financial reward or ideological satisfaction, the big payout, financial or otherwise, comes when Brexit is delivered, and Farage does appear to be working towards that goal. Contrast this, say, with Corbyn who is quite happy to drag things out provided the damage falls on the Tories.

For Forks Sake · 02-09-2019 04:53PM

trellheim wrote: »

Peter foster agreeing with Sam Coates -

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster

One step removed from the (new) dog ate my homework at this stage.

Stop moaning ffs · 02-09-2019 04:53PM

is_that_so wrote: »

This is the risk he faces. It could be good or a disaster.

How are those 7 MPs caught in camera publicly saying proroguging parliament is insane etc, going o hold their seats? Surely everyone knows they lied now. In constituencies like those they could be anyone’s to win

Zubeneschamali · 02-09-2019 04:54PM

is_that_so wrote: »

This is the risk he faces. It could be good or a disaster.

Unclear if this poll accounts for the possibilty of a Remain pact.

BarryD2 · 02-09-2019 04:56PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Still engaging in questioning the Referendum Result I see. You might agree or disagree with the result, but the Referendum is done, over, finito.

Its the ultimate waste of time discussing the Referendum result, time I don't intend to waste. The debate has moved on. We are now at the stage of looking at a No Deal Brexit and how it can be avoided.

It is indeed finito, history. The question now is whether the public of the UK should have a confirmatory referendum, on the terms that their government wants to ask them to leave on. That is an entirely logical and reasonable course of action. They are different beasts.

Water John · 02-09-2019 04:57PM

Someone presumes there that the DUP will stay at 10 seats.

is_that_so · 02-09-2019 04:59PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Unclear if this poll accounts for the possibilty of a Remain pact.

It's more the level of the risk he could be taking, I'm thinking of. I think almost everyone else will band together in a new parliament, except the DUP of course.

Zubeneschamali · 02-09-2019 05:00PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The SNP have called the referendum and the result illegitimate from day one (35 votes in the HoC)

Here is Sturgeon's first statement on the result.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-36620375

She does not claim the referendum or result are illegitimate, she just says that since Scotland voted to remain, she will work to see that Scotland remains.

Even if that means leaving the UK (her real goal).

Stop moaning ffs · 02-09-2019 05:00PM

Water John wrote: »

Someone presumes there that the DUP will stay at 10 seats.

Poll earlier suggested alliance were going to take 3 DUP seats. They will turn up at parliament and will vote whatever way defends NI and the backstop.

is_that_so · 02-09-2019 05:00PM

Water John wrote: »

Someone presumes there that the DUP will stay at 10 seats.

Actually that's pointed out in a further tweet.

VinLieger · 02-09-2019 05:01PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

It is indeed finito, history. The question now is whether the public of the UK should have a confirmatory referendum, on the terms that their government wants to ask them to leave on. That is an entirely logical and reasonable course of action. They are different beasts.

A 2nd confirmatory referendum of such a kind was suggested by Mogg, Farage and numerous other leavers prior to the referendum, none of them will agree its necessary or acknowledge suggesting it anymore

swampgas · 02-09-2019 05:01PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

How are those 7 MPs caught in camera publicly saying proroguging parliament is insane etc, going o hold their seats? Surely everyone knows they lied now. In constituencies like those they could be anyone’s to win

In a single seat contituency you're really voting for the party rather than the candidate. So they'll probably just go all out on the fear-mongering - Jeremy "Stalin" Corbyn will take all their stuff if they don't vote Tory.

Itssoeasy · 02-09-2019 05:01PM

As if this whole brexit carry on wasn't already a farce, it seems that the draft policy on Northern Ireland that the British cabinet are nearing approval of is the same one as before but with the backstop references crossed out. Yes minister wasn't even this bad.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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