Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I could be wrong here but I believe at one stage or another every single party leader in the UK has said the referendum result needs to be respected.

I think the LibDems have always been for some sort of second referendum. But yes, Labour outwardly respect the referendum result.

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is possible to respect a result without actually implementing it. For example, you can show respect by explaining why it is a very bad idea to go through with it, because the original result came about by misleading information or even by deliberate lies.

The problem with this is that, though we can speculate, we actually don't know why other people voted the way they did. You or I might vote a particular way but we not obliged to explain our choice to anyone.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think an election before Brexit Day will go badly for the Tories - Leavers will split to support the Brexit Party as Johnson has failed, Remainers will be energized by the possibility that a Remain Alliance can stop Brexit altogether.

this is the gamble Johnson has to take. he has worked since the summer to convince the brexit party types that he is gung ho enough for them. his lunatic brexit credentials are there for all to see. he has done things farage would never even have considered. he can say to the brexit party voters ''i have balked at nothing to get you what you want, i even called an election to get one over on corbyn now support me to get this over the line.


he is bizarrely popular in the UK and there is every change he will get his majority. then its''goodbye the dup, hello border down the irish sea''



or he loses the election and corbyn cobbles together a confidence and supply with the SNP and the greens and plaid and alliance in the north. he then gets to own brexit while johnson leads the charge for the pro brexit betrayed.

corbyns government is doomed to failure for a myriad of reasons and Boris is back in power in 18 months to 2 years after remain win the second referendum 51 to 49. johnson promises to work to reform the EU from within and to halt any advances towards federalism.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Corbyn couldn't be dumb enough to go along with a snap election?

Labour are miles behind in the polls. And an election would likely guarantee a No Deal Brexit as the clock is wound down.

corbyn is mad for an election, but he would be mad to fall into this trap alright, but then a lot of people not least in his own party say he's a bit mad.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

What facts did you mention?

I'm not sure there is anything worth engaging with here to be honest. You like to use metaphors and such but there is no substance and you didnt address my response to your point on the vote. I'm not sure we will be able to debate in a purposeful manner, but - as I mentioned - it was not a legitimate vote and can't be considered one - would you care to address that point?

That point aside, there are several other issues.

It was actually an advisory (non-binding) referendum which was overly simplistic and did not provide a specific mandate. Yes/No for an extremely complex issue with far reaching implications that weren't sufficiently clear. It certainly did not instruct the government to behave like a clown academy and steer toward a crash out brexit.

The referendum itself was run in an unbelievably cavalier manner: no proper oversight as to the conduct of the respective campaigns and no proper referendum commission providing impartial, factual information. You see, the UK arent used to running referendums, and it shows.

Part of the problem was that barely anyone in the UK even knew what the EU was at the point. Many still don't. There were certainly some vague notions that they outlawed bananas of a particular shape. Theresa May bravely triggered Article 50 in a patriotic flourish... but 'without a sketch of a plan'.

The mandate is bollocks. The far right types have been literally making it up as they go along, becoming progressively more obtuse and obdurate. They are spurred on by some bizarre exceptionalism and a nasty, nationalistic media.

Still engaging in questioning the Referendum Result I see. You might agree or disagree with the result, but the Referendum is done, over, finito.

Its the ultimate waste of time discussing the Referendum result, time I don't intend to waste. The debate has moved on. We are now at the stage of looking at a No Deal Brexit and how it can be avoided.

Crying over the spilled milk that was the election result gets no-one nowhere fast.

Any chance of it being re-run is long gone.

Any chance of its impact being reduced was rejected in the HoC including by the likes of Corbyn who by their actions handed Brexit on a plate to Boris Johnson.

Don’t look at this questionable, non-binding referendum, look at that other thing over there.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Even if he won a majority there is no guarantee the ERG will play ball after the election. They could still oppose any deal, including one with border down the Irish Sea. Some Conservatives might do this too. Its very difficult to get a deal that suits even the whole of the Conservative party.

That's why the election has to be before b-day. As long as the threat of no deal is there, all other outcomes look better. Push their noses up against the window of whatever hellscape he can leak into the press and tell them it's his deal or oblivion in a post-brexit Corbyn government. All the bogeymen in one neat little parcel. And it works equally well for ERG head-bangers and remainers alike.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Most likely they will lose 50 seats and the Tories gain them. That will weaken him further. There might be a heave against them at that stage.

if you are right then johnson would be mad not to push for an election in fact its bizarre he has not done it before now.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Alliance are gobbling up support from everywhere it looks like. SDLP, SF, DUP and a little bit of UUP. Will be an interesting election in NI if it happens soon.

Unfortunately as always, FPTP would show its worthlessness, Alliance would need a far greater surge to actually gain any sizable number of seats.

Expect this thread to get moving even faster tonight and tomorrow , we will look back on today as a period of calm restraint **

** relatively speaking of course

Me again

NEW

Cabinet ministers to be told draft legal text on Northern Ireland plan has been drawn up and ready to be introduced

BUT

��A source says draft legal text is just the existing protocol with the relevant articles on the backstop crossed out - not exactly a worked up plan��

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1168543706472943616

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Until he actually delivers, there will always be a more brexity candidate - the one with Brexit Party beside their name.

Who will point out that Boris is a big fat liar who caused this election by deliberately provoking his rebels into stopping Brexit, something that will not happen if you elect the Brexit Party.

At least, that's what I would say if I was Zara ffoulkes Cholmondley Rees-Mogg or whoever.

the thing is all those brexit party votes or the vast majority of them are died in the wool tories. people who have voted tory all there lives and are desperatly looking for a reason to go back to being tories. Boris can be that reason as long as he can keep up the brexit hard man act and make sure he has not let himself get caught preforming an un-brexit act.
therefore a pre 31 October election is risky for sure but perhaps not as risky as as being forced into a back down by parliament or crashing out and facing the inevitable consequences of that.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I prefer to stick to what is actually happening at present.

Like the Leader of the Opposition promising to block No Deal and run a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option?

Happened today, in case you missed it.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

All parties but the Lib Dems accepted the Referendum Result. Jeremy Corbyn, lately hero of remainers, said the result needed to be respected.

The referendum where the winning side's manifesto said that they would negotiate a deal BEFORE triggering Article 50?

Anyway, there has been a GE since then. Labour stood on a platform of getting the "exact same benefits" as membership, and leaving with a deal. Given that neither of those is looking very likely now it's completely keeping with respecting the two previous votes to oppose a no-deal crash and second referendum on the available options (cancel, May's deal or no-deal).