The death knell of the Irish Language

Reati · 01-09-2019 01:39PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

There’s no appitite for that outside the internet as far as I can see

Absolutely. It's pretty clear from the fact no one has run a successful campaign on the platform of "let's get rid of Irish". Even when Seán Lemass was Taoiseach, who was pretty frosty towards any Irish language revival ideas to put it politely, couldn't even muster support for any removal.

In fact, polls continue to show the support for the Irish language is still very high throughout Ireland especially with younger people, who we are told are chomping at the bit to have Irish removed from schools.

69% of the people questioned, and who are aged between 18-34, as well as 60% of those between the ages of 35-54, believe that it is very important to use, promote and protect the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 01:43PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The leaving cert has more than one compulsory subject and since Irish is an official language either English would be non compulsory as well, or both have to be compulsory.

Neither should be compulsory.

Reati wrote: »

In fact, polls continue to show the support for the Irish language is still very high throughout Ireland especially with younger people, who we are told are chomping at the bit to have Irish removed from schools.

Strawman argument: most young people just want it removed from their personal syllabus, not from the entire school.

Compulsory Irish - beyond Junior cert - does nothing for the langauge or for the actual strudent.

Reati · 01-09-2019 01:50PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

most young people just want..

Where is the data for that?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Strawman argument: most young people just want it removed from their personal syllabus, not from the entire school.

Continuing with your line of commentary for discussions sake, I'd say most young people would bite the hand off you if you said they didn't have to do maths or English or a host of other subjects in school too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 01:58PM

Reati wrote: »

Where is the data for that?

You made the point that "polls continue to show the support for the Irish language is still very high throughout Ireland especially with younger people, who we are told are chomping at the bit to have Irish removed from schools.

I just clarified it to say that they don't want to removed from schools, just from their syallabus (or, to further clarify) want the choice. Not wanting it to be removed is NOT the same as not wanting it to be optional.

Continuing with your line of commentary for discussions sake, I'd say most young people would bite the hand off you if you said they didn't have to do maths or English or a host of other subjects in school too.

Probably so - what's you point?

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 01-09-2019 02:04PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Probably so - what's you point?

His point was we can’t tell much from individual (and anecdotal) students wanting Irish to not be compulsory as they would like everything to be non compulsory. Probably, that is, as we are data free.

Reati · 01-09-2019 02:09PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I just clarified it to say that they don't want to removed from schools, just from their syallabus (or, to further clarify) want the choice. Not wanting it to be removed is NOT the same as not wanting it to be optional.

You didn't clarify you made a statement that a majority want something with no facts or proof to back up that "clarification".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

most young people just want it removed from their personal syllabus, not from the entire school.

It's quite impressive to know what a group wants while being unable to quantify it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 02:12PM

Reati wrote: »

You didn't clarify you made a statement that a majority want something with no facts or proof to back up that "clarification".

It's based on observation and talking to leaving cert students. Not every point is deduced via studies and statistics.

if you want to disagree with it, then say so. Say that you believe that the majority of leaving cert students are happy to do compulsory Irish - and we'll agree to disagree.

I was just pointing out that your poll doesn't prove anything we don't already know.

Reati · 01-09-2019 02:22PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's based on observation and talking to leaving cert students.

For a poster who loves calling out logic fallacies like strawman, I'm a tad surprised your happy to take anecdotal chats with leaving cert students as proof of anything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I was just pointing out that your poll doesn't prove anything we don't already know.

You didn't point out anything. You made a statement of fact based on an anecdotal conversation. It's at best sloppy debating.

Also, not my poll. Red C poll.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 02:27PM

Reati wrote: »

For a poster who loves calling out logic fallacies like strawman, I'm a tad surprised your happy to take anecdotal chats with leaving cert students as proof of anything.

You didn't point out anything. You made a statement of fact based on an anecdotal conversation. It's at best sloppy debating.

In fairness, yes, I could have made the distinction between opinion and fact clearer. Let's go back.

IN MY OPINION, most young (as in school-age) students are supportive of the langauge, as you point out, BUT most of them are not supportive of the subject being compulsory.
Agree or disagree or don't care?

So. While "support for the Irish language is still very high throughout Ireland especially with younger people" they are not "chomping at the bit to have Irish removed from schools".

Imreoir2 · 01-09-2019 02:45PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Compulsory Irish - beyond Junior cert - does nothing for the langauge or for the actual strudent.

It does nothing for the student post JC? What is the case for learning Irish to JC, or even in Primary school in your opinion?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 02:55PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It does nothing for the student post JC? What is the case for learning Irish to JC, or even in Primary school in your opinion.

Firstly, what do you think compulsory Irish do for them post JC?

In answer to your questions, though:

Up to primary - I think kids should be introduced to the language. When I hear "it's a part of [[someone's] culture" I think it's a bit ignorant; but it would be equally ignorant to think it genuinely ISN'T a part of someone else's and what they may personally identify with. For that reason, I think they shouldlearn the basics and get a feel for it.

Up to Junior Cert - I'd actually be happy for it to be optional for this period too, to be honest, but I'm flexible. I'm also open to the idea what kids who don't like it might have had bad teachers (and by bad, I mean uninspiring or overly strict, not nessecarily inadequate) and that they could still feel a change of heart.

After Junior Cert - at this point, it'll be twelve years. No amount of wonderful teaching or positive experience is going to change things. They're old enough to make a decision about their education and if they STILL reject it by that stage, take the hint.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-09-2019 03:04PM

We do 7 subjects in the leaving cert.
the English equivalent?
Two subjects

And English isn’t a compulsory subject

Look how that’s worked out for them.

Reati · 01-09-2019 03:16PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

IN MY OPINION, most young (as in school-age) students are supportive of the langauge, as you point out, BUT most of them are not supportive of the subject being compulsory.
Agree or disagree or don't care?

I've already kinda answered it but let me add colour to it.

The laser focusing on Irish as a compulsory subject is misplaced. It is semantics that we state Irish is compulsory and ignore many universities require English, Irish and maths, others Maths, English or Irish and while others also require a European language to have been studied as entry criteria to many courses. It could be argued Maths is by far more compulsory being the common requirement across the majority.

So, if we were to remove entry requirements having any specific subjects, of course children would drop Subjects all over the place. Not because of a like or dislike but because the leaving cert is a highest point system to be beaten. For 3 years all I heard was ways to maximise points. I took subjects I had no interest in to maximise points. Students would take the easiest courses to maximise points.

So, do I think they'd drop Irish? Sure, but they'd also drop Math, English and another European language just as fast if they could.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So. While "support for the Irish language is still very high throughout Ireland especially with younger people" they are not "chomping at the bit to have Irish removed from schools".

I'm not sure what your are trying to say here?

johnmcdnl · 01-09-2019 03:21PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

After Junior Cert - at this point, it'll be twelve years. No amount of wonderful teaching or positive experience is going to change things. They're old enough to make a decision about their education and if they STILL reject it by that stage, take the hint.

I loved history and still do but there was zero chance I was going to do it for the leaving cert given the perceived work load in it, considering there were loads of other easier subjects to do.
The same for chemistry and geography, I'd have loved to study them, but I was on the lazier side and seen easier subjects to do to get handy points.

Likewise with Irish, I enjoy and am happy I studied it, but there again is zero chance I'd volunteer to choose it over French in school. An no its not because French is taught better, its because the level of French you need to get a good grade is far lower than the level of Irish you need.
You can get a half decent grade in French with limited vocabulary and grammar, whereas to get the same grade in Irish you need to be a hell of a lot more fluent.

When there's a game to get easier points, making Irish optional will result in it being dropped by many, simply because its easier to get marks in other subjects. I and many others would have dropped English too given the chance, but it's deemed mandatory in order to ensure a high standard is maintained.

It's an impossible task to push Irish to a higher level by making it optional, unless you give bonus points for it.

Imreoir2 · 01-09-2019 03:30PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We do 7 subjects in the leaving cert.
the English equivalent?
Two subjects

And English isn’t a compulsory subject

Look how that’s worked out for them.

The English example is quite instructive, about a decade ago they had a second language as a compulsory subject but decided to drop that requirement in the interests of "greater choice and unlocking potential". Most schools followed suit and made learning a second language optional and as a result the rate of learning a second language dropped like a stone. Demand in many schools was so low that they could no-longer justify offering it as a choice at all and a lot of schools in England now do not offer a second language as a choice at all.
This was most pronounced in disadvantaged schools and schools in working class areas. Private schools, and schools in wealthier areas kept learning a second language as compulsory for all students in the school in many cases and now there is a big gap in language learning in England. The children of the more privlaged often take a second language while the children of the disadvantaged often dont even have the choice.

Universities, especially the top level universities have kept a second language as an entry requirement and a lack of a second language has become a means to prevent those from a lower socio-economic background from accessing the best courses. This has in turn put pressure on universities to drop language requirements, but this has not happend accross the bord and has led to greater class stratification in education with top level universities becoming even more the preserve of the wealthy and privlaged.

This is the problem with focusing on the individual and ignoring the wider socital impact of such a change.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 03:33PM

Reati wrote: »

I've already kinda answered it but let me add colour to it.

The laser focusing on Irish as a compulsory subject is misplaced. It is semantics that we state Irish is compulsory and ignore many universities require English, Irish and maths, others Maths, English or Irish and while others also require a European language to have been studied as entry criteria to many courses. It could be argued Maths is by far more compulsory being the common requirement across the majority.

So, if we were to remove entry requirements having any specific subjects, of course children would drop Subjects all over the place. Not because of a like or dislike but because the leaving cert is a highest point system to be beaten. For 3 years all I heard was ways to maximise points. I took subjects I had no interest in to maximise points. Students would take the easiest courses to maximise points.

So, do I think they'd drop Irish? Sure, but they'd also drop Math, English and another European language just as fast if they could.

If that's the case, then there is waaaay more wrong with the system than I thought.

I've no problems with subject requirements for thrid level if it's practical. Irish to become and Irish teacher? Sure. Makes sense. Irish to become a veterinary scientist? Why?

If we just want to make it hard, why not just take the students out to the yard and give them to the one who can dig the most holes?

I'm not sure what your are trying to say here?

The idea that young people want to scrap Irish is ridiculous. Some might, but they'd be in the minority, while most others probably just don't want to have to study it, but are fine for others to do so.

The problem - again - is that the focus is on the status of the lnagauge and not the language itself. People just come up with reasons for the sake of it.

And THIS obcession with status is the BIGGEST thing blocking an Irish revival.

Imreoir2 · 01-09-2019 03:37PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And THIS obcession with status is the BIGGEST thing blocking an Irish revival.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How is a supposed obsession with status blocking a revival? And how would a revival come about if this obsession with status was removed?

Reati · 01-09-2019 03:49PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If that's the case, then there is waaaay more wrong with the system than I thought.

I've no problems with subject requirements for thrid level if it's practical. Irish to become and Irish teacher? Sure. Makes sense. Irish to become a veterinary scientist? Why?

If we just want to make it hard, why not just take the students out to the yard and give them to the one who can dig the most holes?

Different thread altogether.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The idea that young people want to scrap Irish is ridiculous. Some might, but they'd be in the minority, while most others probably just don't want to have to study it, but are fine for others to do so.

The problem - again - is that the focus is on the status of the lnagauge and not the language itself. People just come up with reasons for the sake of it.

And THIS obcession with status is the BIGGEST thing blocking an Irish revival.

I agree in part though it's not the biggest thing, it's one of many things but I'm up a ladder so it's not the time for a long post!

Stop moaning ffs · 01-09-2019 03:52PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The English example is quite instructive, about a decade ago they had a second language as a compulsory subject but decided to drop that requirement in the interests of "greater choice and unlocking potential". Most schools followed suit and made learning a second language optional and as a result the rate of learning a second language dropped like a stone. Demand in many schools was so low that they could no-longer justify offering it as a choice at all and a lot of schools in England now do not offer a second language as a choice at all.
This was most pronounced in disadvantaged schools and schools in working class areas. Private schools, and schools in wealthier areas kept learning a second language as compulsory for all students in the school in many cases and now there is a big gap in language learning in England. The children of the more privlaged often take a second language while the children of the disadvantaged often dont even have the choice.

Universities, especially the top level universities have kept a second language as an entry requirement and a lack of a second language has become a means to prevent those from a lower socio-economic background from accessing the best courses. This has in turn put pressure on universities to drop language requirements, but this has not happend accross the bord and has led to greater class stratification in education with top level universities becoming even more the preserve of the wealthy and privlaged.

This is the problem with focusing on the individual and ignoring the wider socital impact of such a change.

I think I love you

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 03:52PM

johnmcdnl wrote: »

I loved history and still do but there was zero chance I was going to do it for the leaving cert given the perceived work load in it, considering there were loads of other easier subjects to do.
The same for chemistry and geography, I'd have loved to study them, but I was on the lazier side and seen easier subjects to do to get handy points.

Likewise with Irish, I enjoy and am happy I studied it, but there again is zero chance I'd volunteer to choose it over French in school. An no its not because French is taught better, its because the level of French you need to get a good grade is far lower than the level of Irish you need.
You can get a half decent grade in French with limited vocabulary and grammar, whereas to get the same grade in Irish you need to be a hell of a lot more fluent.

When there's a game to get easier points, making Irish optional will result in it being dropped by many, simply because its easier to get marks in other subjects. I and many others would have dropped English too given the chance, but it's deemed mandatory in order to ensure a high standard is maintained.

It's an impossible task to push Irish to a higher level by making it optional, unless you give bonus points for it.

Then this is the problem - but again: how does all this help a revival?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 03:56PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How is a supposed obsession with status blocking a revival? And how would a revival come about if this obsession with status was removed?

Because the energy is being put into maintaining said status as opposed to initiatives to actually teach Irish to people who might enjoy it.

If the Gaelogiori could have ONE thing: cumpolsory Irish OR more Irish speakers annually, you just know they'd pick the former every time.

Reati wrote: »

Different thread altogether.

Then don't bring up third-level education entry requirements!

Stop moaning ffs · 01-09-2019 04:02PM

Can we drop or even ban the gaa then? Serves no purpose. Went to an all Irish school and was forced to play it. Hate it to this day.

‘But it’s part of our culture’. Is it though?

The language might be around a small bit longer.

To be fair you can be fairly certain the vast majority of people in Croker right now have a basic up to fluent grasp of Irish. I’ll give them that.

Reati · 01-09-2019 04:04PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because the energy is being put into maintaining said status as opposed to initiatives to actually teach Irish to people who might enjoy it.

If the Gaelogiori could have ONE thing: cumpolsory Irish OR more Irish speakers annually, you just know they'd pick the former every time.

No they wouldn't.

Edit: btw is this another "fact" or your opinion?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then don't bring up third-level education entry requirements!

Fine, let's derail and discuss why the leaving cert is broken and why it should be a test of hole digging ability.

I'll kick it off. Should construction involve a test of block stacking?

Imreoir2 · 01-09-2019 04:08PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I think I love you

Tog go bog é

johnmcdnl · 01-09-2019 04:18PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then this is the problem - but again: how does all this help a revival?

There's a balance thay needs to be struck between maintaining Irish and keeping a high level in the educational system.

I don't have the answer to how to modify the leaving cert to avoid the points game, while simultaneously keeping a high level. I'll be the first to admit that.
I do however know that Irish will be dropped by most if it is made optional in the current system.

Maybe a fair middle ground would be to maintain the second language requirement for university, but increase the level of difficulty of European languages, so thay you're expected to be able to write 2 page essays on interpreting French literature, instead of a 75 word email to your French friend who is asking for the answer to 3 easy questions.

That way learning a second language is still a requirement, but it gives a fair playing field to a student who has to choose between a European language and Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-09-2019 04:18PM

Reati wrote: »

No they wouldn't.

Fine, let's derail and discuss why the leaving cert is broken and why it should be a test of hole digging ability.

I'll kick it off. Should construction involve a test of block stacking?

So you're saying that.irish for third level scpyld be o the same footing as every other subject? Grand - that's that sorted out so.

Reati · 01-09-2019 04:25PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So you're saying that.irish for third level scpyld be o the same footing as every other subject? Grand - that's that sorted out so.

No, I didn't but you seem to be less interested in the debating now your points have started to run out of steam.

What is the discussion point you want to have? Irish the language, Irish as a subject, entry requirements for universities, problems with the leaving cert points game? None of the above?

Dravokivich · 01-09-2019 04:32PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The English example is quite instructive, about a decade ago they had a second language as a compulsory subject but decided to drop that requirement in the interests of "greater choice and unlocking potential". Most schools followed suit and made learning a second language optional and as a result the rate of learning a second language dropped like a stone. Demand in many schools was so low that they could no-longer justify offering it as a choice at all and a lot of schools in England now do not offer a second language as a choice at all.
This was most pronounced in disadvantaged schools and schools in working class areas. Private schools, and schools in wealthier areas kept learning a second language as compulsory for all students in the school in many cases and now there is a big gap in language learning in England. The children of the more privlaged often take a second language while the children of the disadvantaged often dont even have the choice.

Universities, especially the top level universities have kept a second language as an entry requirement and a lack of a second language has become a means to prevent those from a lower socio-economic background from accessing the best courses. This has in turn put pressure on universities to drop language requirements, but this has not happend accross the bord and has led to greater class stratification in education with top level universities becoming even more the preserve of the wealthy and privlaged.

This is the problem with focusing on the individual and ignoring the wider socital impact of such a change.

To me that reads like the education system is not aligned end to end. Trying to right that wrong from our perspective should mean we dont push preference or obligations onto subjects that are not actually required. Someone who wants to pursue engineering needs good maths and physics. They dont need another language.

Montage of Feck · 01-09-2019 04:34PM

The template on how to save the language is just a short hop across the sea in Wales. But of course the real reason for the lack of action is too many snouts in the trough.

Dravokivich · 01-09-2019 04:40PM

Montage of Feck wrote: »

The template on how to save the language is just a short hop across the sea in Wales. But of course the real reason for the lack of action is too many snouts in the trough.

If people want to learn it and use it, they have to go out and pursue it. But they dont, it's all about keeping it in the schools and getting every form duplicated to show an "effort" in keeping it alive.

The death knell of the Irish Language

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