The death knell of the Irish Language

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 09:39AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because Google is not going to explain YOUR point or tell me what YOU think.

Nor will it tell me how graffiti increases interest in the language or the number of language speakers.

Again: the interest here merely in the status.of the language and not the actual language or its usage.

Militancy, as it is portrayed in your posts, will do nothing to revive the language.

The other poster suggested that we should learn lessons from Wales, the fact is that the language movement in Wales is far more militant and agressive than the language movement in Ireland.

The point re graffiti, and other methods of direct action, are that they have been shown to be effective at pushing change through, far more effictive than the middle class tut tuting that is the hallmark of the Irish language movement.

Hamsterchops · 30-08-2019 10:18AM

My kids learn Irish in school, as did my wife and myself, and our parents before us .......

None of us are fluent in Irish with only the cupla focal to get by with, so that we don't feel guilty when we tick the 'Irish language box' on the English language census form

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 11:15AM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The other poster suggested that we should learn lessons from Wales, the fact is that the language movement in Wales is far more militant and agressive than the language movement in Ireland.

Correct, but while they suggested learning from the Welsh, you switched that to militancy without any logic whatsoever. Correalation =/= causation.

The point re graffiti, and other methods of direct action, are that they have been shown to be effective at pushing change through, far more effictive than the middle class tut tuting that is the hallmark of the Irish language movement.

Accepted, but that doesn't challenge either of my my latter two points (and actually confirms the first)

Again: the interest here merely in the status.of the language and not the actual language or its usage.

Militancy, as it is portrayed in your posts, will do nothing to revive the language.

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 11:28AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Correct, but while they suggested learning from the Welsh, you switched that to militancy without any logic whatsoever. Correalation =/= causation.

The logic of bringing up militancy is that the most obvious difference between the Irish language movement and the Welsh Language Movement is that the latter is far more militant. If there is a lesson to be learned from Wales, it is that militancy works.

People bring up the Welsh example often without having any understanding of what actually happens in Wales in terms of language issues. If we were to follow the Welsh example we would have more stringent language legislation, we would still have compulson in schools but also a program to convert English medium schools to Gaelscoils and a much expanded effort to provide public services in Irish. Wales does what we do, but a lot moreso, and that effort is driven by a language movement that was founded in and to this days follows a strongly militant program. They occupy public buildings, blocade roads, damage public property, break windows, protest polititions, disrupt public meetings. They get themselves arrested and are proud that someone has been in jail for the Welsh language every day since the movement was founded.

On the few occisations that the Irish language movement has adopted these tactics, actual change came about, that is how we got TG4. But for the most part the Irish language movement is too middle class to get down and dirty like that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 11:43AM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The logic of bringing up militancy is that the most obvious difference between the Irish language movement and the Welsh Language Movement is that the latter is far more militant. If there is a lesson to be learned from Wales, it is that militancy works.

Not proven that this is the cause.

People bring up the Welsh example often without having any understanding of what actually happens in Wales in terms of language issues. If we were to follow the Welsh example we would have more stringent language legislation, we would still have compulson in schools but also a program to convert English medium schools to Gaelscoils and a much expanded effort to provide public services in Irish. Wales does what we do, but a lot moreso, and that effort is driven by a language movement that was founded in and to this days follows a strongly militant program. They occupy public buildings, blocade roads, damage public property, break windows, protest polititions, disrupt public meetings. They get themselves arrested and are proud that someone has been in jail for the Welsh language every day since the movement was founded.

On the few occisations that the Irish language movement has adopted these tactics, actual change came about, that is how we got TG4. But for the most part the Irish language movement is too middle class to get down and dirty like that.

This is pretty much repeating what you said in the post I replied to, so my repsonce to it is the same: I'm not disagreeing with you, but you're conforming one point I've made and not challenging the other.

Was there as much opposition to Welsh and as much promotion of student freedom in education as there is here?

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 12:05PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Was there as much opposition to Welsh and as much promotion of student freedom in education as there is here?

Can't say that I am aware of what you are talking about. There is a fairly low level of opposition to Irish here, and the case is similar in Wales. A few people have a problem with it but the vast majority are not against it.

I can't say I have come accross "promotion of student freedom in education" as an issue, and I was a trainee teacher at one point. Perhaps you are taking something that you care about and making the mistake that it is a thing others are concerned about too?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 12:58PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Can't say that I am aware of what you are talking about. There is a fairly low level of opposition to Irish here, and the case is similar in Wales. A few people have a problem with it but the vast majority are not against it.

I can't say I have come accross "promotion of student freedom in education" as an issue, and I was a trainee teacher at one point. Perhaps you are taking something that you care about and making the mistake that it is a thing others are concerned about too?

A lot of people think compulsion should be dropped and the students be free to choose what they study.

I ask because it hasn't worked here and if it has worked over there, then it would most certainly be worth looking into what they did differently or how they got it to work. THAT would promote the language far better than writing on walls.

(Well, it would if the powers that be here actually took it on board and tired it, but we both know they won't)

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 01:19PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Tir gan teanga tir gan anam

A country with no language is a country without a soul.

One of the stupidest slogans ever.

Shows profound ignorance of the linguistic complexity of our continent, too. Several countries do not have "their own" language.

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 01:20PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

A lot of people think compulsion should be dropped and the students be free to choose what they study.

Be honest though, this is not as a result of any desire to see a better outcome in the learning of Irish. If the outcome was worse, and it would be, you would persist in your desire to see compulsion dropped, would you not?

I ask because it hasn't worked here and if it has worked over there, then it would most certainly be worth looking into what they did differently or how they got it to work. THAT would promote the language far better than writing on walls.

I am not sure that the average student in Wales leaving a Welsh school that teaches through English has any better Welsh than the equivilant student in Ireland has Irish. The significant difference between Wales and Ireland is that while the Irish primary school system is around 6% Gaelscoils, in Wales they are closer to 25% schools that teach through Welsh. At secondary level it is not even 2% of schools that teach through Irish but if memory serves it is closer to 20% in Wales. On top of that, the policy in Wales is to convert English medium schools to Welsh medium schools. There is no such policy here and the Dept of Education has traditionally been quite opposed to the establishment of Gaelscoils here.

If you want to do what Wales does, then you would favour keeping compulsory Irish, strenghtening language legislation, greatly expanding Irish Medium Education and you would make public services much more widely available in Irish. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you oppose all of that?

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 01:40PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Art has no practical purpose either. Should we let art die and frown upon artists wanting to keep it alive?

If those artists were lobbying for compulsory Art exams in the Leaving Cert we'd tell them to f*** off and rightly so. But every school should offer it.

BTW the last time a movement was set up to try to allow language choice in education they were violently attacked. Look up "Language Freedom Movement".

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 01:41PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

but it is Ireland, and it is part of our heritage

That doesn't follow.

I was born and have lived all my life in Dublin, a city founded by Vikings, then the Normans came, etc. It's very unlikely that Irish was ever spoken here other than by a minority, and probably a very small one. You can't "revive" something that never existed here.

Just because different people were born and live in the same country doesn't mean they share the same heritage or culture. The Ireland of Peig may as well be a foreign country as far as most of us are concerned.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 01:45PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Be honest though, this is not as a result of any desire to see a better outcome in the learning of Irish. If the outcome was worse, and it would be, you would persist in your desire to see compulsion dropped, would you not?

I'm against it for two reasons:
1 - when something doesn't work, either stop doing it or fix the problems.
2 - I believe that students after junior cert should be allowed choose (also with regard to Maths and English)

If the argument then becomes, that something bad will happen to the langauge; then:
1 - I disagree, there's enough enthsiasts to keep it alive
2 - It's not the students job to revive a language; nor should they be used as tools to do so.

Again - it's all about the status of the language and people who argue blindly in favour of it have no respect for either the language or the students.

But AGAIN - seeing as you've researched this - what did the Welsh do differently?

I am not sure that the average student in Wales leaving a Welsh school that teaches through English has any better Welsh than the equivilant student in Ireland has Irish. The significant difference between Wales and Ireland is that while the Irish primary school system is around 6% Gaelscoils, in Wales they are closer to 25% schools that teach through Welsh. At secondary level it is not even 2% of schools that teach through Irish but if memory serves it is closer to 20% in Wales. On top of that, the policy in Wales is to convert English medium schools to Welsh medium schools. There is no such policy here and the Dept of Education has traditionally been quite opposed to the establishment of Gaelscoils here.

If you want to do what Wales does, then you would favour keeping compulsory Irish, strenghtening language legislation, greatly expanding Irish Medium Education and you would make public services much more widely available in Irish. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you oppose all of that?

That's just ignorant. Surely, we should be in favour of finding out what it is they did first??! To want to do it without wanting to find out is just beyond stupid. Now - if it you can be PROVEN to work and can be implemented here without disruption to the student, THEN I'd be in favour of it.

---

Back on topic: you've now posted four or five times about learning from a Welsh revival, without ever once actually posting any indication that you actually know what they did that works!!

You're just guessing and bluffing.

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 01:45PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That doesn't follow.

I was born and have lived all my life in Dublin, a city founded by Vikings, then the Normans came, etc. It's very unlikely that Irish was ever spoken here other than by a minority, and probably a very small one. You can't "revive" something that never existed here.

Just because different people were born and live in the same country doesn't mean they share the same heritage or culture. The Ireland of Peig may as well be a foreign country as far as most of us are concerned.

Both the Vikings and the Normans were assimilated and adopted the Irish language, ever heard the phrase "more Irish than the Irish themselves"? The idea that Irish was never spoken in Dublin is based on historical ignorance.

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 02:04PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm against it for two reasons:
1 - when something doesn't work, either stop doing it or fix the problems.
2 - I believe that students after junior cert should be allowed choose (also with regard to Maths and English)

If the argument then becomes, that something bad will happen to the langauge; then:
1 - I disagree, there's enough enthsiasts to keep it alive
2 - It's not the students job to revive a language.

Again - it's all about the status of the language and people who argue blindly in favour of it have no respect for either the language or the students.

You are blindly saying that compulsion does not work. What evidence have you that compulsion is the problem? Firstly what outcome do you expect to be achieved and how do you know that some other factor is not the issue? You can't expect me to allow you make the assumption that compulsion does not work at face value without any atempt to show that it is indeed the case.

For you it seems to be all about Irish being a core subject for the LC, and you are blindly arguing against it becasue your oppinion happens to be that students should be able to make their own choice rather than the state deciding that a number of subjects should be taken to LC level. Your argument is based, seemingly, on nothing more than an opinion. Where is the evidence that such a change would benefit the students in any way? Are we to take that at face value aswell?

But AGAIN - seeing as you've researched this - what did the Welsh do differently?

In the area of compulsion they didn't do something differently. They do the same as us, which suggests to me that the factor in our failure is not compulsion after all as they have the same policy and yet succeed better than us.

I favour finding out what it is first!! To not want to know is just beyond stupid. And if it can be PROVEN to work and can be implemented here without disruption to the student, then I've be in favour of it.

As I said, there is no differnece when it comes to compulsion, but plenty of differences in other areas such as the vast difference in the rate of students educated through Welsh in Wales as compared to the rate of students being educated through Irish here, the much stronger language legislation in Wales and the much wider availability of public services through Welsh in Wales. Perhaps your obsession with compulsion has blinded you to those other factors?

Back on topic: you've now posted four or five times about learning from a Welsh revival, without ever once actually posting any indication that you actually know what they did that works!!

You're just guessing and bluffing.

I have shown several factors, but you seem to have ignored them becuase of an obsession with the one factor that is not different between Ireland and Wales. You seem determined to find out what they are doing differently on compulsion in Wales because seemingly that is the only important factor, when in fact they are not doing anything significantly different in relation to compulsion and it is clear that it is other factors that explain the difference in outcomes between Wales and Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 02:08PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Both the Vikings and the Normans were assimilated and adopted the Irish language, ever heard the phrase "more Irish than the Irish themselves"? The idea that Irish was never spoken in Dublin is based on historical ignorance.

Evidence please.

Imreoir2 · 30-08-2019 02:11PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Evidence please.

I really dont have time to educate you, look it up if you like, or don't.

Fourier · 30-08-2019 02:14PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Evidence please.

Don Piatt - Gaelic Dialects of Leinster records elements of the dialect spoken in Dublin up until the 1880s. Though it stopped being a common language in the city around 1750.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 02:15PM

Gas how people are so dead set on retaining compulsion. Of course, we must remember there's a massive vested interest here - teachers of Irish.

It's the exact same when the TUI refused to implement the directive allowing pupils to choose another subject instead of religion.

They're worried a large proportion of pupils will opt out of a subject because they see it as useless and/or dislike it, and make some teachers' jobs redundant.

Why are you so voiciferous against people having freedom of choice?

Can you not justify it as a subject on its own terms? Clearly not.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 02:16PM

Fourier wrote: »

Don Piatt - Gaelic Dialects of Leinster records elements of the dialect spoken in Dublin up until the 1880s. Though it stopped being a common language in the city around 1750.

Thanks. Was it ever a majority language and when? Not being common means getting close to extinct

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 02:22PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I really dont have time to educate you, look it up if you like, or don't.

And yet here you are.

In other words, you don't know if it's even true yourself.

Fourier · 30-08-2019 02:40PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Thanks. Was it ever a majority language and when? Not being common means getting close to extinct

1200s to 1650s is the usual estimate of when it was the majority language

FTA69 · 30-08-2019 03:21PM

I organised an event yesterday which was a film screening for an Irish-language documentary about Irish people who went to fight with the Kurds against ISIS. The gaff was packed out and well over half the people there were speaking Irish and conversing in it in the pub. The staff in the Kurdish centre in which it was held we're delighted at the novelty and said we should we be very proud.

Didn't seem at all dead to me when people are speaking it in East London.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-08-2019 03:28PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

One of the stupidest slogans ever.

Shows profound ignorance of the linguistic complexity of our continent, too. Several countries do not have "their own" language.

You’re getting that worked up about a line from a poem or whatever it’s from.

I’ll leave you to it.

30-08-2019 03:30PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I organised an event yesterday which was a film screening for an Irish-language documentary about Irish people who went to fight with the Kurds against ISIS. The gaff was packed out and well over half the people there were speaking Irish and conversing in it in the pub. The staff in the Kurdish centre in which it was held we're delighted at the novelty and said we should we be very proud.

Didn't seem at all dead to me when people are speaking it in East London.

people who turn up to watch irish language documentaries speak irish

thats a headline now is it

James Brown · 30-08-2019 03:37PM

It's part of the Irish culture and heritage. I will support it being retained. It should be at least thought in primary and optional in secondary for the leaving.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 04:23PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You’re getting that worked up about a line from a poem or whatever it’s from.

Ah yes the old "calm down dear" :rolleyes:

If you can't meaningfully engage, then just patronise people instead... very passive aggressive

The fact that that profoundly stupid, empty, hollow phrase is now a slogan of the Irish language lobby says it all really. That's the best they could come up with.

So, are you going to tell e.g. a Belgian that he or she is not from a real country? Somehow I doubt it.

I’ll leave you to it.

You won't, though. And you won't leave my taxes to it or leave my kids to it to decide their LC subjects either.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-08-2019 04:29PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah yes the old "calm down dear" :rolleyes:

If you can't meaningfully engage, then just patronise people instead... very passive aggressive

The fact that that profoundly stupid, empty, hollow phrase is now a slogan of the Irish language lobby says it all really. That's the best they could come up with.

So, are you going to tell e.g. a Belgian that he or she is not from a real country? Somehow I doubt it.

You won't, though. And you won't leave my taxes to it or leave my kids to it to decide their LC subjects either.

Wow. Haha

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 01-09-2019 12:50PM

"A country without a language is a country without a soul" comes from Patrick Pearse, who had distinct ideas about how to sustain a country's heart and soul. Another of his noted enthusiasms was for copious bloodshed. He wrote in December 1915, during the carnage of World War I: "The last 16 months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for the love of country."

Forgive me, then, for disregarding Pearse's distinctly nutty ideas about what a country needs for self-sustenance.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 01-09-2019 01:06PM

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

"A country without a language is a country without a soul" comes from Patrick Pearse, who had distinct ideas about how to sustain a country's heart and soul. Another of his noted enthusiasms was for copious bloodshed. He wrote in December 1915, during the carnage of World War I: "The last 16 months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for the love of country."

Forgive me, then, for disregarding Pearse's distinctly nutty ideas about what a country needs for self-sustenance.

His ideas were fairly standard at the time, which is why the European countries went to war in the first place. For honour, for glory and for country. For empire. (Sometimes democracy was mentioned but it was relatively rare until the end of the war when the US came in).

Support for WWII was not universal - the left was broadly anti war until it happened and in Ireland of course opposition to imperialist wars was strong.

This is a strange kind of revisionism that finds support for WWII in an Irish nationalist, a group largely hostile to the war, but ignores where the vast majority of that type of rhetoric came from.

And of course Pearse was actually killed in part because of an uprising during the war, he was killed as a traitor.

This is a bad argumentative style anyway, I don’t like A because proponent of A (if we go through his voluminous writings) once said B. It’s like dismissing the US constitution because Jefferson once said.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants

As you can see blood mixing with soil is a fairly common metaphor.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 01-09-2019 01:15PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah yes the old "calm down dear" :rolleyes:

If you can't meaningfully engage, then just patronise people instead... very passive aggressive

The fact that that profoundly stupid, empty, hollow phrase is now a slogan of the Irish language lobby says it all really. That's the best they could come up with.

So, are you going to tell e.g. a Belgian that he or she is not from a real country? Somehow I doubt it.

They have two languages there, which is exactly what you oppose here.

You won't, though. And you won't leave my taxes to it or leave my kids to it to decide their LC subjects either.

The way democracy works is we decide together where our taxes go. Nearly everybody has some tax they would prefer not paying, or some institution or program they would prefer not to fund. Get elected and change that.

The leaving cert has more than one compulsory subject and since Irish is an official language either English would be non compulsory as well, or both have to be compulsory.

For all the rest - like not having government documents produced in Irish - this needs a change to the constitution. There’s no appitite for that outside the internet as far as I can see

The death knell of the Irish Language

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