Wealthy countries and higher suicide rates

Anus Von Skidmark · 29-08-2019 03:33PM

fryup wrote: »

in pooper countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

Are those what Donald Trump calls '****hole countries'?

fyfe79 · 29-08-2019 04:42PM

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also been found to be under the influence of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest. It may well also be partially informed by the cultural/religious taboos we hold about suicide (the Catholic Church used to forbid those who died by suicide from being buried in consecrated ground), and indeed insurance reasons: where a life assurance policy, for instance, won't pay out in a case of suicide, the coroner will likely be reluctant to deprive the surviving family of the money if there's any legal ambiguity about the cause of death. They will err on the side of caution.

Great point which I hadn't thought of.

Something I’ve been thinking of recently as a reason why there aren’t more suicides in poor countries, is maybe the suicidal person realises that if they’re gone, their family will be without a breadwinner and could end up in dire straits or on the street? There is a lot of responsibility on a person (not just men and women, but also teenagers who are expected to contribute to the family early) to remain fit and strong to support the family. In western countries, a lot of the time the family is no worse off (financially) after the suicide of a family member. Hell, I’m worth much more to my wife alive than dead – and that’s not a joke.

mikemac2 · 29-08-2019 05:12PM

Life insurance will still pay out in the event of suicide if the policy was existing for 24 months. Some might even be 12 months

It’s a limit but it doesn’t last forever

ChikiChiki · 29-08-2019 05:46PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

if you have alcohol or drugs in your system its classed as misadventure

Seriously? That is shocking. If that's the case I would say we only see half the suicide numbers.

freshpopcorn · 29-08-2019 05:50PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Seriously? That is shocking. If that's the case I would say we only see half the suicide numbers.

I remember reading a a report or something from a coroner that said over 50% of the suicides recorded had alcohol in their system.

vriesmays · 29-08-2019 06:02PM

The other 50% must have been on drugs.

BrokenArrows · 29-08-2019 06:21PM

People in wealthier countries have more free time to consider all the things they don't like about their lives.

They see all the people around them who are in their opinion doing better. Grass is greener mentality.

Less community and family connections.

More expectations. Raised in a wealthy country where everything has been provided, education, healthcare, support. When you still fail to achieve much then it's much worse than if you had nothing to begin with.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-08-2019 06:43PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I remember reading a a report or something from a coroner that said over 50% of the suicides recorded had alcohol in their system.

People assume this means it's the cause, but that's just an assumption.

Well, if I'd made my mind up to do it I wouldn't want to be stone cold sober doing it...

kneemos · 29-08-2019 07:02PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

People assume this means it's the cause, but that's just an assumption.

Well, if I'd made my mind up to do it I wouldn't want to be stone cold sober doing it...

If you're a troubled soul what are you going to do? Take drugs and alcohol.
They're just a symptom.

whiskeyman · 29-08-2019 07:07PM

I've always wondered about this.
So are the suicide figured in Ireland based where the cornoner explicitly stated 'suicide'?
In reality, we must be looking at a multiple of it if that's the case.

ILoveYourVibes · 29-08-2019 07:34PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

Just being alive is valued more.

Not just by the individual but by society.

I mean the little old man living alone. People don't pity him. He is lucky to be alive. That's great.

Life is great.

SEPT 23 1989 · 29-08-2019 07:39PM

whiskeyman wrote: »

I've always wondered about this.
So are the suicide figured in Ireland based where the cornoner explicitly stated 'suicide'?
In reality, we must be looking at a multiple of it if that's the case.

The “death by misadventure” is the figure that should be looked at

ILoveYourVibes · 29-08-2019 07:41PM

Actually having found this not sure the OP's theory is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Mrs OBumble · 29-08-2019 08:00PM

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Ye suppose, anyway the problem needs to be addressed in Ireland

Why?

Every human population has a certain proportion of self-harm deaths. There's no intrinsic reason why the rate should be the same across all countries. Some cultures, including Ireland's, have a focus on death (shure everyone loves a good funeral ... and then the day of mourning on the anniversary for the next 30 years), so it's not surprising that the rate of self-inflicted death is higher here.

It's quite likely that the next major social change legislation which is pushed for here will be euthanasia, ie state-approved suicide-by-doctor. Many many people have posted in other threads that they are in favour of this.

To be quite clear: suicide is an absolute tragedy for the family and friends of the bereaved. It's totally understandable that they want to stop it happening to other families. But it's equally unrealistic that it will be eliminated.

fyi - it's a few years ago now, but I do remember seeing papers suggesting that the biggest undercounting is actually suicide-by-car aka autocide. Single vehicle car hits-wall type of collisions where no one can figure out why there was a collision. There's also a particularly distressing car-hits-truck category, where the car driver assumes s/he will be the only one to die - but isn't.

ILoveYourVibes · 29-08-2019 08:37PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why?

Every human population has a certain proportion of self-harm deaths. There's no intrinsic reason why the rate should be the same across all countries. Some cultures, including Ireland's, have a focus on death (shure everyone loves a good funeral ... and then the day of mourning on the anniversary for the next 30 years), so it's not surprising that the rate of self-inflicted death is higher here.

It's quite likely that the next major social change legislation which is pushed for here will be euthanasia, ie state-approved suicide-by-doctor. Many many people have posted in other threads that they are in favour of this.

To be quite clear: suicide is an absolute tragedy for the family and friends of the bereaved. It's totally understandable that they want to stop it happening to other families. But it's equally unrealistic that it will be eliminated.

fyi - it's a few years ago now, but I do remember seeing papers suggesting that the biggest undercounting is actually suicide-by-car aka autocide. Single vehicle car hits-wall type of collisions where no one can figure out why there was a collision. There's also a particularly distressing car-hits-truck category, where the car driver assumes s/he will be the only one to die - but isn't.

Euthanasia is more about organizing a peaceful death as opposed to an agonizing one.

Suicide is more about a violent painful agonizing death as opposed to a life with distress caused by the person's own mind/brain.

Suicide is also to do with a belief system. That death is going to somehow be better than life.

What about mass suicides? What about mass suicides in cults etc?

They have a common factor with individual suicides the people/person believes they are going to a better state of being or place than they are currently experiencing.

That is a belief system.

scamalert · 29-08-2019 09:10PM

while i agree with OPs statement, but a lot of 3rd world countries have massive violent crime issues, so while it might seem they are more chill but death wise they rank top in other fields.

Gregor Samsa · 29-08-2019 09:23PM

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Actually having found this not sure the OP's theory is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Exactly. The WHO stats I posted earlier don’t back up the assertion at all either. There doesn’t seem to be any correlation between a nations wealth and suicide rates.

pinkyeye · 29-08-2019 09:31PM

I honestly believe it's the gap in society we have now. During true recessionary times, it seems to me the majority were equal. So that we were all struggling, it didn't seem like if you had nothing that you were a failure?

Now when you have nothing you feel like the very bottom of society. Especially for men I think this is particularly hard to live with.

mr.anonymous · 29-08-2019 09:52PM

It's more to do with inequality than wealth. The more inequality there is, the less people you have as peers and the more isolated you feel. The loneliness and perpetual anxiety of modern society wears us down.

With another economic downturn supposedly on the way (according to some) it wouldn't be surprising to see more suicides.

That earlier post on how suicide is recorded, or not, is an eye opener.

Greyfox · 30-08-2019 12:55AM

mr.anonymous wrote: »

It's more to do with inequality than wealth. The more inequality there is, the less people you have as peers and the more isolated you feel. The loneliness and perpetual anxiety of modern society wears us down.

That's exactly it. If your poor and every one else is poor you know your in the same boat as those around you. But if you know there's people around you that are much better off than you it can make you feel crappy even if your doing ok. Too many people think that having a nice car and nice clothes etc is important when there not really that important

kowloon · 30-08-2019 01:16AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's quite likely that the next major social change legislation which is pushed for here will be euthanasia, ie state-approved suicide-by-doctor. Many many people have posted in other threads that they are in favour of this.

It would be interesting to see how much that would cut down the rate. I expect a not so trivial number of people with serious illnesses die from suicide rather than the illness itself. How many of them do it before it is necessary as they are afraid they won't be able to later on?

cj maxx · 30-08-2019 01:39AM

J. Marston wrote: »

A week, in just your area? That sounds a bit much.

It does but I remember a good few years ago a spate of hangings in a period in our area. Plus a gun and a tablet suicide thrown in. That was in the mid 90's.
Seemed like one a week or more

NoteAgent · 30-08-2019 05:18AM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

People in wealthier countries have more free time

Huh? Wealthier people have less free time. Way less. If you run a successful business you're never off the clock. Ever. Even when on holidays.

The opposite is true as well. I dont see the people of Sudan running around looking at their watch all stressed out.

s7ryf3925pivug · 30-08-2019 05:30AM

People compare themselves to people around them. The highest suicide rates are often in the happiest countries as a result.

Victor · 30-08-2019 05:58AM

It seems a lot of suicides are among older people. Wealthier countries have a lot more older people.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-08-2019 10:21AM

It's seen as pretty normal for oul lads to hang around the pub all day every day but surely that's slow suicide?

suicide_circus · 30-08-2019 10:24AM

mr.anonymous wrote: »

It's more to do with inequality than wealth. The more inequality there is, the less people you have as peers and the more isolated you feel. The loneliness and perpetual anxiety of modern society wears us down.

With another economic downturn supposedly on the way (according to some) it wouldn't be surprising to see more suicides.

That earlier post on how suicide is recorded, or not, is an eye opener.

is there any evidence that its the poor people in a generally affluent society that are the ones committing suicide?

mikemac2 · 30-08-2019 10:34AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's seen as pretty normal for oul lads to hang around the pub all day every day but surely that's slow suicide?

John B Keane had a play on that called the Chastitute. An old farmer just couldn’t meet a wife and he couldn’t kill himself so he decided he would drink himself to death

He wrote some depressing stuff

Wealthy countries and higher suicide rates

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