Wealthy countries and higher suicide rates

mr_fegelien

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

Mr. Incognito

Social Media and advertising selling people nonsense.

kneemos

Less social pressure?

Wibbs

Often more extended families and community feelings in poorer more traditional nations. Fewer nuclear families.

KilOit

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

Woke Hogan

In wealthier countries, though we live relatively comfortably and are mostly safe from the threat of war, an entire generation of people have been sold into a modern equivalent of indentured serfdom for the multinationals.

With the meteoric rise of rent prices thanks to greedy landlords and stagnant wages since 2008 young people can barely afford to work and live in the major European cities and their quality of life has freefallen.

Even those with "good jobs" are expected and encouraged to work 12+ hour days for the likes of Google who think installing fussball tables into their company rec room is a suitable substitute for a healthy work/life balance.

That doesn't even take it into account that everyone aged under 30 can look forward to spending their dotage on a dying planet and fleeing landwars in rags as climate refugees.

If I was thirty years younger I'd be depressed too.

J. Marston

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

A week, in just your area? That sounds a bit much.

the beer revolu

Woke Hogan wrote: »

In wealthier countries, though we live relatively comfortably and are mostly safe from the threat of war, an entire generation of people have been sold into a modern equivalent of indentured serfdom for the multinationals.

With the meteoric rise of rent prices thanks to greedy landlords and stagnant wages since 2008 young people can barely afford to work and live in the major European cities and their quality of life has freefallen.

Even those with "good jobs" are expected and encouraged to work 12+ hour days for the likes of Google who think installing fussball tables into their company rec room is a suitable substitute for a healthy work/life balance.

That doesn't even take it into account that everyone aged under 30 can look forward to spending their dotage on a dying planet and fleeing landwars in rags as climate refugees.

If I was thirty years younger I'd be depressed too.

Except that the phenomenon of more developed countries having higher rates of suicide isn't a new thing, asaik.

Stevieluvsye

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

kneemos

Illegality and cultural taboo's may lead to underreporting in some countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

PringleDemon

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

Seen an article recently about 12 death's in 15 days in the Belfast area all linked to suicides

Gregor Samsa

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also been found to be under the influence of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest. It may well also be partially informed by the cultural/religious taboos we hold about suicide (the Catholic Church used to forbid those who died by suicide from being buried in consecrated ground), and indeed insurance reasons: where a life assurance policy, for instance, won't pay out in a case of suicide, the coroner will likely be reluctant to deprive the surviving family of the money if there's any legal ambiguity about the cause of death. They will err on the side of caution.

kneemos

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also ingested a lot of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest.

Death by misadventure.

Stevieluvsye

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also ingested a lot of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest.

So if someone jumps off a bridge intentionally to commit suicide in this case the coroner would call it misadventure although family and friends they wern't nipping out for a midnight swim in January

BTW Not arguing, want to understand

Feisar

Navel Gazing may be a factor, we are not programmed for the sort of lifestyles we have. If ones next meal is the biggest concern it for of takes over from the sort of long term stress that wears people down. We were designed for short sharp stresses; kill mammoth, avoid sabertooth sort of stuff, not to fret over a huge mortgage. Basically we are not compatible with the sort of lifestyles we now have.

A book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is worth a look for those interested.

Whether we are slaves to the big corporations I don't know. One needs to eat and have a safe place to sleep. Were American Natives slaves to the seasons? We are slaves to our needs. What our needs are seems to have gotten fudged over the years and this would be big industry selling us happiness and us being complicit in buying into that don't forget.

Gregor Samsa

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

So if someone jumps off a bridge intentionally to commit suicide in this case the coroner would call it misadventure although family and friends they wern't nipping out for a midnight swim in January

BTW Not arguing, want to understand

Possibly, yes. Misadventure, or a narrative verdict. Other factors would have to be taken into consideration, of course. If they left a note or message, it might be a factor in determining intent. So too their behaviour and state of mind before the event.

But, in the absence of all other factors, if someone is simply found dead at the bottom of the bridge, they may not be legally recorded as dying by suicide, even if their family and friends "know" that they (most likely) jumped deliberately in order to take their own life.

Stevieluvsye

phutyle wrote: »

Possibly, yes. Misadventure, or a narrative verdict. Other factors would have to be taken into consideration, of course. If they left a note or message, it might be a factor in determining intent. So too their behaviour and state of mind before the event.

But, in the absence of all other factors, if someone is simply found dead at the bottom of the bridge, they may not be legally recorded as dying by suicide, even if their family and friends "know" that they (most likely) jumped deliberately in order to take their own life.

Ye suppose, anyway the problem needs to be addressed in Ireland

Gregor Samsa

I'd also question the OP's assertion about the correlation between suicide rates and the wealth of the country

These WHO statistics from 2018 don't seem to bear this out:


http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/

Sweden, the highest ranking Scandinavian country (called out by the OP) is ranked 28th, with a lot of poor countries appearing above it. In fact, from this table, I don't think you can draw any conclusions based on wealth. The fact is that there's a lot more poor countries in the world than rich ones, so you're bound to see less rich ones in any given section of the table. The rich ones certainly aren't concentrated in the top 20 or anything.

Maybe the OP could provide the source of the data that led them to their conclusion?

There might be a better collection of statistics in some countries.

4068ac1elhodqr

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

With a slight partial exception of Southern Japan & Korea, places at 53oN or higher suffer from lack of sunlight and it's benefits (vitamins and hormones), hence an elevated rate is present.
Japan also suffers from indoor locked-in type syndromes (aided by technological conviences). S.Korea is all 5G now, so might have higher amounts of mobile-zombie drones gazing with empty hearts at their HDR 4k screens, public transport and cafes may well be totally absent of a friendly wink or smile as it wouldn't be reciprocated.

Poorer nations on average have plenty of sunnytimes, and even a better sense of community if there's feck all else to do but sit around a shared pot of soup and have a chinwag.

ChikiChiki

Materialism and comparison have a big psychological effect.

People in developing countries seem content with simpler lives. The people of Thailand and Vietnam are ridicously poor yet happy.

wakka12

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

No, its calculated per capita. So the population size is irrelevant

And yeh it doesnt suprise me really. More doesnt always make you happier. Just look at spoilt children, giving them more things doesnt make them more happy or grateful

fryup

in poorer countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

4068ac1elhodqr

kneemos wrote: »

Illegality and cultural taboo's may lead to underreporting in some countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Surprised by Greenland, then again it has little sunlight (for vitamins & hormones), might explain the high alchohol consumption (guess it would increase for their 6mths of darkness). Same for Litu & Russ.

Maybe the Donald would do them a huge favour with a buy-out. They could all head down to MIA to see the sunny bikinis n' boardwalks instead of clubbing bears or whatever they usually do in the artic.

banie01

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

It is, but an indicator of the underreporting of suicide would be to compare the numbers of suicide versus death by misadventure.

There is an onerous level of proof required before a coroner will issue a finding of suicide.
It does the mental health services no good at all when this underreporting is endemic.

There was a thread on a similar topic a few yrs ago where if memory serves the HSE placed the number of people attending A+E for injuries arising from self harm at 80000, yet the suicide rate was less than 500.

The numbers are deliberately skewed, not out of religious or insurance concerns as an earlier poster posited.
But simply because a high burden of proof exists before a death is recorded as such.

There is also a persistent myth that life assurance doesn't cover suicide.
Quite often after a 2yr period it does, suicide is included in all actuarial calculations.

SEPT 23 1989

if you have alcohol or drugs in your system its classed as misadventure

mr_fegelien

fryup wrote: »

in pooper countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

In a way I think ignorance really is bliss.....

It was bhudda was said the pursuit of fulfilling desires brings suffering and that may explain why westerners are more discontent that starving kids in Africa. If you were born in an African village, you don't know about the next iPhone, the next big house,etc... everyone around you is equally poor and so you don't feel too bad about living in a ****hole to speak.

But if you're in somewhere like Ireland, you can see wealth inequality. Look at rich people living in South Dublin and bad living conditions in the inner city. Even if you don't go outside your house you can feel bad by going on social media.

I think this is what fuels suicidality. The feeling that someone has it better than you and knowing that one mistake could land you living in terrible conditions/homeless.

Now that I think about it I read an article that said suicide was strongest in countries with highest inequality, regardless of how rich or poor it is.

Wanderer2010

Social media has a lot to answer for when it comes to suicide risks, pushing people into thinking they need to have the "perfect" life on FB, and feeling deeply depressed if they fail to measure up. Facebook is all one big con, nobody ever says they are feeling bad on FB or feel depressed, anxious etc. And those that do usually are jumping on the latest simplistic "Its ok not to be ok" campaign in an attempt to get another few likes.

What we need is more authentic and genuine relationships between people that are not based on their FB account or how much money they have. Sadly I don't see that happening any time soon, and it contributes so much towards the decision of young people in particular to take their lives.

life comes easy and is self-evaluated appropriately, perhaps

freshpopcorn

I'm in my late twenties now.
I remember some suicides in the early 2000's and people said they were down to people not being able to keep up with the demand of a Celtic Tiger lifestyle.
Then in the later 2000's it was because of the recession.
Now it's because of the the social media.

ToddyDoody

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm in my late twenties now.
I remember some suicides in the early 2000's and people said they were down to people not being able to keep up with the demand of a Celtic Tiger lifestyle.
Then in the later 2000's it was because of the recession.
Now it's because of the the social media.

Too much exteriority, not enough interiority.

Anus Von Skidmark

fryup wrote: »

in pooper countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

Are those what Donald Trump calls '****hole countries'?

fyfe79

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also been found to be under the influence of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest. It may well also be partially informed by the cultural/religious taboos we hold about suicide (the Catholic Church used to forbid those who died by suicide from being buried in consecrated ground), and indeed insurance reasons: where a life assurance policy, for instance, won't pay out in a case of suicide, the coroner will likely be reluctant to deprive the surviving family of the money if there's any legal ambiguity about the cause of death. They will err on the side of caution.

Great point which I hadn't thought of.

Something I’ve been thinking of recently as a reason why there aren’t more suicides in poor countries, is maybe the suicidal person realises that if they’re gone, their family will be without a breadwinner and could end up in dire straits or on the street? There is a lot of responsibility on a person (not just men and women, but also teenagers who are expected to contribute to the family early) to remain fit and strong to support the family. In western countries, a lot of the time the family is no worse off (financially) after the suicide of a family member. Hell, I’m worth much more to my wife alive than dead – and that’s not a joke.

mikemac2

Life insurance will still pay out in the event of suicide if the policy was existing for 24 months. Some might even be 12 months

It’s a limit but it doesn’t last forever

ChikiChiki

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

if you have alcohol or drugs in your system its classed as misadventure

Seriously? That is shocking. If that's the case I would say we only see half the suicide numbers.

freshpopcorn

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Seriously? That is shocking. If that's the case I would say we only see half the suicide numbers.

I remember reading a a report or something from a coroner that said over 50% of the suicides recorded had alcohol in their system.

vriesmays

The other 50% must have been on drugs.

BrokenArrows

People in wealthier countries have more free time to consider all the things they don't like about their lives.

They see all the people around them who are in their opinion doing better. Grass is greener mentality.

Less community and family connections.

More expectations. Raised in a wealthy country where everything has been provided, education, healthcare, support. When you still fail to achieve much then it's much worse than if you had nothing to begin with.

Hotblack Desiato

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I remember reading a a report or something from a coroner that said over 50% of the suicides recorded had alcohol in their system.

People assume this means it's the cause, but that's just an assumption.

Well, if I'd made my mind up to do it I wouldn't want to be stone cold sober doing it...

kneemos

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

People assume this means it's the cause, but that's just an assumption.

Well, if I'd made my mind up to do it I wouldn't want to be stone cold sober doing it...

If you're a troubled soul what are you going to do? Take drugs and alcohol.
They're just a symptom.

whiskeyman

I've always wondered about this.
So are the suicide figured in Ireland based where the cornoner explicitly stated 'suicide'?
In reality, we must be looking at a multiple of it if that's the case.

ILoveYourVibes

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

Just being alive is valued more.

Not just by the individual but by society.

I mean the little old man living alone. People don't pity him. He is lucky to be alive. That's great.

Life is great.

SEPT 23 1989

whiskeyman wrote: »

I've always wondered about this.
So are the suicide figured in Ireland based where the cornoner explicitly stated 'suicide'?
In reality, we must be looking at a multiple of it if that's the case.

The “death by misadventure” is the figure that should be looked at

ILoveYourVibes

Actually having found this not sure the OP's theory is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Mrs OBumble

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Ye suppose, anyway the problem needs to be addressed in Ireland

Why?

Every human population has a certain proportion of self-harm deaths. There's no intrinsic reason why the rate should be the same across all countries. Some cultures, including Ireland's, have a focus on death (shure everyone loves a good funeral ... and then the day of mourning on the anniversary for the next 30 years), so it's not surprising that the rate of self-inflicted death is higher here.

It's quite likely that the next major social change legislation which is pushed for here will be euthanasia, ie state-approved suicide-by-doctor. Many many people have posted in other threads that they are in favour of this.

To be quite clear: suicide is an absolute tragedy for the family and friends of the bereaved. It's totally understandable that they want to stop it happening to other families. But it's equally unrealistic that it will be eliminated.

fyi - it's a few years ago now, but I do remember seeing papers suggesting that the biggest undercounting is actually suicide-by-car aka autocide. Single vehicle car hits-wall type of collisions where no one can figure out why there was a collision. There's also a particularly distressing car-hits-truck category, where the car driver assumes s/he will be the only one to die - but isn't.

ILoveYourVibes

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why?

Every human population has a certain proportion of self-harm deaths. There's no intrinsic reason why the rate should be the same across all countries. Some cultures, including Ireland's, have a focus on death (shure everyone loves a good funeral ... and then the day of mourning on the anniversary for the next 30 years), so it's not surprising that the rate of self-inflicted death is higher here.

It's quite likely that the next major social change legislation which is pushed for here will be euthanasia, ie state-approved suicide-by-doctor. Many many people have posted in other threads that they are in favour of this.

To be quite clear: suicide is an absolute tragedy for the family and friends of the bereaved. It's totally understandable that they want to stop it happening to other families. But it's equally unrealistic that it will be eliminated.

fyi - it's a few years ago now, but I do remember seeing papers suggesting that the biggest undercounting is actually suicide-by-car aka autocide. Single vehicle car hits-wall type of collisions where no one can figure out why there was a collision. There's also a particularly distressing car-hits-truck category, where the car driver assumes s/he will be the only one to die - but isn't.

Euthanasia is more about organizing a peaceful death as opposed to an agonizing one.

Suicide is more about a violent painful agonizing death as opposed to a life with distress caused by the person's own mind/brain.

Suicide is also to do with a belief system. That death is going to somehow be better than life.

What about mass suicides? What about mass suicides in cults etc?

They have a common factor with individual suicides the people/person believes they are going to a better state of being or place than they are currently experiencing.

That is a belief system.

scamalert

while i agree with OPs statement, but a lot of 3rd world countries have massive violent crime issues, so while it might seem they are more chill but death wise they rank top in other fields.

Gregor Samsa

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Actually having found this not sure the OP's theory is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Exactly. The WHO stats I posted earlier don’t back up the assertion at all either. There doesn’t seem to be any correlation between a nations wealth and suicide rates.

pinkyeye

I honestly believe it's the gap in society we have now. During true recessionary times, it seems to me the majority were equal. So that we were all struggling, it didn't seem like if you had nothing that you were a failure?

Now when you have nothing you feel like the very bottom of society. Especially for men I think this is particularly hard to live with.

mr.anonymous

It's more to do with inequality than wealth. The more inequality there is, the less people you have as peers and the more isolated you feel. The loneliness and perpetual anxiety of modern society wears us down.

With another economic downturn supposedly on the way (according to some) it wouldn't be surprising to see more suicides.

That earlier post on how suicide is recorded, or not, is an eye opener.

Greyfox

mr.anonymous wrote: »

It's more to do with inequality than wealth. The more inequality there is, the less people you have as peers and the more isolated you feel. The loneliness and perpetual anxiety of modern society wears us down.

That's exactly it. If your poor and every one else is poor you know your in the same boat as those around you. But if you know there's people around you that are much better off than you it can make you feel crappy even if your doing ok. Too many people think that having a nice car and nice clothes etc is important when there not really that important