Wealthy countries and higher suicide rates

mr_fegelien · 29-08-2019 12:33PM #1

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

Mr. Incognito · 29-08-2019 12:35PM

Social Media and advertising selling people nonsense.

kneemos · 29-08-2019 12:40PM

Less social pressure?

Wibbs · 29-08-2019 12:40PM

Often more extended families and community feelings in poorer more traditional nations. Fewer nuclear families.

KilOit · 29-08-2019 12:41PM

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

Woke Hogan · 29-08-2019 12:42PM

In wealthier countries, though we live relatively comfortably and are mostly safe from the threat of war, an entire generation of people have been sold into a modern equivalent of indentured serfdom for the multinationals.

With the meteoric rise of rent prices thanks to greedy landlords and stagnant wages since 2008 young people can barely afford to work and live in the major European cities and their quality of life has freefallen.

Even those with "good jobs" are expected and encouraged to work 12+ hour days for the likes of Google who think installing fussball tables into their company rec room is a suitable substitute for a healthy work/life balance.

That doesn't even take it into account that everyone aged under 30 can look forward to spending their dotage on a dying planet and fleeing landwars in rags as climate refugees.

If I was thirty years younger I'd be depressed too.

J. Marston · 29-08-2019 12:45PM

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

A week, in just your area? That sounds a bit much.

the beer revolu · 29-08-2019 12:45PM

Woke Hogan wrote: »

In wealthier countries, though we live relatively comfortably and are mostly safe from the threat of war, an entire generation of people have been sold into a modern equivalent of indentured serfdom for the multinationals.

With the meteoric rise of rent prices thanks to greedy landlords and stagnant wages since 2008 young people can barely afford to work and live in the major European cities and their quality of life has freefallen.

Even those with "good jobs" are expected and encouraged to work 12+ hour days for the likes of Google who think installing fussball tables into their company rec room is a suitable substitute for a healthy work/life balance.

That doesn't even take it into account that everyone aged under 30 can look forward to spending their dotage on a dying planet and fleeing landwars in rags as climate refugees.

If I was thirty years younger I'd be depressed too.

Except that the phenomenon of more developed countries having higher rates of suicide isn't a new thing, asaik.

Stevieluvsye · 29-08-2019 12:47PM

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

kneemos · 29-08-2019 12:48PM

Illegality and cultural taboo's may lead to underreporting in some countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

PringleDemon · 29-08-2019 12:53PM

KilOit wrote: »

A lot of suicides in Ireland aren't documented in the death cert for religious/insurance reasons etc. Few hangings a week in my area.

Seen an article recently about 12 death's in 15 days in the Belfast area all linked to suicides

Gregor Samsa · 29-08-2019 01:03PM

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also been found to be under the influence of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest. It may well also be partially informed by the cultural/religious taboos we hold about suicide (the Catholic Church used to forbid those who died by suicide from being buried in consecrated ground), and indeed insurance reasons: where a life assurance policy, for instance, won't pay out in a case of suicide, the coroner will likely be reluctant to deprive the surviving family of the money if there's any legal ambiguity about the cause of death. They will err on the side of caution.

kneemos · 29-08-2019 01:09PM

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also ingested a lot of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, - and maybe it's even wrong that it's done - but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest.

Death by misadventure.

Stevieluvsye · 29-08-2019 01:09PM

phutyle wrote: »

For suicide to be recorded, the coroner needs to be certain that the individual intended in taking their life. To give a very extreme example, if there was a video found of the deceased and in it they said "I'm going to kill myself now.", then pulled out a gun and fatally shot themselves in the head, they yes it's very likely this would be recorded as suicide.

But if someone is found dead in their bed having ingested 2 bottles of pills, even if it can be established that they deliberate took the pills themselves, it may not necessarily follow that the coroner will record a verdict of death by suicide. It may be argued that the person did not, in the end, intend to actually kill themselves - that they possibly went too far with something and couldn't undo it if they changed their mind. Or if someone is found hanged, and they've also ingested a lot of alcohol (or drugs), it may be argued that they weren't in a state that they could fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.

That they died by their own hand is not necessarily reason enough to officially record death by suicide.

It may seem like a semantic argument, and it's easy to flippantly reject it here on Boards where nothing is of major consequence, but that's the level of detailed consideration that goes into an inquest.

So if someone jumps off a bridge intentionally to commit suicide in this case the coroner would call it misadventure although family and friends they wern't nipping out for a midnight swim in January

BTW Not arguing, want to understand

Feisar · 29-08-2019 01:12PM

Navel Gazing may be a factor, we are not programmed for the sort of lifestyles we have. If ones next meal is the biggest concern it for of takes over from the sort of long term stress that wears people down. We were designed for short sharp stresses; kill mammoth, avoid sabertooth sort of stuff, not to fret over a huge mortgage. Basically we are not compatible with the sort of lifestyles we now have.

A book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is worth a look for those interested.

Whether we are slaves to the big corporations I don't know. One needs to eat and have a safe place to sleep. Were American Natives slaves to the seasons? We are slaves to our needs. What our needs are seems to have gotten fudged over the years and this would be big industry selling us happiness and us being complicit in buying into that don't forget.

Gregor Samsa · 29-08-2019 01:22PM

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

So if someone jumps off a bridge intentionally to commit suicide in this case the coroner would call it misadventure although family and friends they wern't nipping out for a midnight swim in January

BTW Not arguing, want to understand

Possibly, yes. Misadventure, or a narrative verdict. Other factors would have to be taken into consideration, of course. If they left a note or message, it might be a factor in determining intent. So too their behaviour and state of mind before the event.

But, in the absence of all other factors, if someone is simply found dead at the bottom of the bridge, they may not be legally recorded as dying by suicide, even if their family and friends "know" that they (most likely) jumped deliberately in order to take their own life.

Stevieluvsye · 29-08-2019 01:26PM

phutyle wrote: »

Possibly, yes. Misadventure, or a narrative verdict. Other factors would have to be taken into consideration, of course. If they left a note or message, it might be a factor in determining intent. So too their behaviour and state of mind before the event.

But, in the absence of all other factors, if someone is simply found dead at the bottom of the bridge, they may not be legally recorded as dying by suicide, even if their family and friends "know" that they (most likely) jumped deliberately in order to take their own life.

Ye suppose, anyway the problem needs to be addressed in Ireland

Gregor Samsa · 29-08-2019 01:30PM

I'd also question the OP's assertion about the correlation between suicide rates and the wealth of the country

These WHO statistics from 2018 don't seem to bear this out:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/

Sweden, the highest ranking Scandinavian country (called out by the OP) is ranked 28th, with a lot of poor countries appearing above it. In fact, from this table, I don't think you can draw any conclusions based on wealth. The fact is that there's a lot more poor countries in the world than rich ones, so you're bound to see less rich ones in any given section of the table. The rich ones certainly aren't concentrated in the top 20 or anything.

Maybe the OP could provide the source of the data that led them to their conclusion?

29-08-2019 01:36PM

There might be a better collection of statistics in some countries.

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-08-2019 01:39PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

With a slight partial exception of Southern Japan & Korea, places at 53oN or higher suffer from lack of sunlight and it's benefits (vitamins and hormones), hence an elevated rate is present.
Japan also suffers from indoor locked-in type syndromes (aided by technological conviences). S.Korea is all 5G now, so might have higher amounts of mobile-zombie drones gazing with empty hearts at their HDR 4k screens, public transport and cafes may well be totally absent of a friendly wink or smile as it wouldn't be reciprocated.

Poorer nations on average have plenty of sunnytimes, and even a better sense of community if there's feck all else to do but sit around a shared pot of soup and have a chinwag.

ChikiChiki · 29-08-2019 01:47PM

Materialism and comparison have a big psychological effect.

People in developing countries seem content with simpler lives. The people of Thailand and Vietnam are ridicously poor yet happy.

wakka12 · 29-08-2019 01:49PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If you look at statistics on suicide from places like Scandanavia, South Korea, Japan, and even Ireland, you'll see a much higher suicide rate than many poor nations.

Although there are poor nations with high suicide rates, Guyana, they are the exception not the norm. If you factor in the large population of third world countries then the suicide rates are even lower than imagined.

Why is this?

No, its calculated per capita. So the population size is irrelevant

And yeh it doesnt suprise me really. More doesnt always make you happier. Just look at spoilt children, giving them more things doesnt make them more happy or grateful

fryup · 29-08-2019 01:52PM

in poorer countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-08-2019 01:59PM

kneemos wrote: »

Illegality and cultural taboo's may lead to underreporting in some countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Surprised by Greenland, then again it has little sunlight (for vitamins & hormones), might explain the high alchohol consumption (guess it would increase for their 6mths of darkness). Same for Litu & Russ.

Maybe the Donald would do them a huge favour with a buy-out. They could all head down to MIA to see the sunny bikinis n' boardwalks instead of clubbing bears or whatever they usually do in the artic.

banie01 · 29-08-2019 02:06PM

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

What's this?

Is it not the coroner who provides the cert?

It is, but an indicator of the underreporting of suicide would be to compare the numbers of suicide versus death by misadventure.

There is an onerous level of proof required before a coroner will issue a finding of suicide.
It does the mental health services no good at all when this underreporting is endemic.

There was a thread on a similar topic a few yrs ago where if memory serves the HSE placed the number of people attending A+E for injuries arising from self harm at 80000, yet the suicide rate was less than 500.

The numbers are deliberately skewed, not out of religious or insurance concerns as an earlier poster posited.
But simply because a high burden of proof exists before a death is recorded as such.

There is also a persistent myth that life assurance doesn't cover suicide.
Quite often after a 2yr period it does, suicide is included in all actuarial calculations.

SEPT 23 1989 · 29-08-2019 02:07PM

if you have alcohol or drugs in your system its classed as misadventure

mr_fegelien · 29-08-2019 02:13PM

fryup wrote: »

in pooper countries all they've got is each other to survive...they don't care about material wealth or how many likes they got on facebook/instagram...

look at the street kids in africa always smiling ...just a game of street football keeps them happy, a much simpler life

*in a way i envy them

In a way I think ignorance really is bliss.....

It was bhudda was said the pursuit of fulfilling desires brings suffering and that may explain why westerners are more discontent that starving kids in Africa. If you were born in an African village, you don't know about the next iPhone, the next big house,etc... everyone around you is equally poor and so you don't feel too bad about living in a ****hole to speak.

But if you're in somewhere like Ireland, you can see wealth inequality. Look at rich people living in South Dublin and bad living conditions in the inner city. Even if you don't go outside your house you can feel bad by going on social media.

I think this is what fuels suicidality. The feeling that someone has it better than you and knowing that one mistake could land you living in terrible conditions/homeless.

Now that I think about it I read an article that said suicide was strongest in countries with highest inequality, regardless of how rich or poor it is.

Wanderer2010 · 29-08-2019 02:21PM

Social media has a lot to answer for when it comes to suicide risks, pushing people into thinking they need to have the "perfect" life on FB, and feeling deeply depressed if they fail to measure up. Facebook is all one big con, nobody ever says they are feeling bad on FB or feel depressed, anxious etc. And those that do usually are jumping on the latest simplistic "Its ok not to be ok" campaign in an attempt to get another few likes.

What we need is more authentic and genuine relationships between people that are not based on their FB account or how much money they have. Sadly I don't see that happening any time soon, and it contributes so much towards the decision of young people in particular to take their lives.

29-08-2019 02:21PM

life comes easy and is self-evaluated appropriately, perhaps

freshpopcorn · 29-08-2019 03:00PM

I'm in my late twenties now.
I remember some suicides in the early 2000's and people said they were down to people not being able to keep up with the demand of a Celtic Tiger lifestyle.
Then in the later 2000's it was because of the recession.
Now it's because of the the social media.

ToddyDoody · 29-08-2019 03:15PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm in my late twenties now.
I remember some suicides in the early 2000's and people said they were down to people not being able to keep up with the demand of a Celtic Tiger lifestyle.
Then in the later 2000's it was because of the recession.
Now it's because of the the social media.

Too much exteriority, not enough interiority.

Wealthy countries and higher suicide rates

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