The death knell of the Irish Language

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 01:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't agree because a multitude of studies state that bilingualism has multiple cognitive benefits.

I'm all for bilingualism. I think it's shameful that Ireland is the only country in Europe where children are not taught a foreign language at primary level.

Irish tax policy encourages multinationals to base their European headquarters in the country -- but Irish education policy means those companies then have to import workers with good foreign language skills from elsewhere. The average Irish person finishes school effectively monolingual in English, with a cupla focail in Irish and whatever smattering of French or German they picked up in secondary school.

It's a ridiculous situation. We should be getting kids going with foreign languages in preschool and continuing that all the way through, like other countries do.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:24PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

That’s an insane argument absent of any facts. Wgat language do you think was spoken in Ireland, where did it come from, what happened to it? Also, sources.

Oh for Christ sake. I didn’t say hedge schools. National schools.

In your original post that was your claim. That the Gaelic league invented Irish as the language of Ireland around the late 19C and subsequently forced it upon the country. You haven’t backed down on that either.

We still don’t know what language you think was prevalent in Ireland when Irish was spoken merely on the coasts.

I can tell you for a fact that English certainly was, by command. I am not even going to begin providing sources here, I don't need to. But I can guarantee you there is a lot more evidence of English being spoken than Irish. You will be telling me Red Hugh O'Donnell addressed the Cardinal in Rome as Gaelige when he arrived? When Fiach O'Bryne was sending ransom letters to the earl of Kildare do you think he wrote them in Irish? Do you?

There was no formal education system in Ireland during penal times. You either obeyed the law and became Protestant or you disobeyed it and taught your kids at the hedge schools. If you were wealthy this didn't matter. Not everyone was though, they never are.

You should read up about the Gaelic revival of the 19th century, it is not a myth.

For the record I believe that English was the predominantly spoken language throughout the country , that is why we are so comfortable with it today. Irish only existed in the Gaeltacht, even 400 years ago and beyond.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:26PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The aristocrats that funded the playwrights, authors, and poets were expelled. Not that there aren’t extant gaelic writings from the era, just not that many.

You seem to seriously believe that Irish wasn’t the majority language pre the 19C. Are you sure you are not a parody account?

Please name the aristocrats, please do. Who expelled them and when. If you talking flight of the earls we might have to start scraping the barrel for 500 years.

Please name these aristocrats.

Fourier · 25-08-2019 01:30PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

For the record I believe that English was the predominantly spoken language throughout the country , that is why we are so comfortable with it today. Irish only existed in the Gaeltacht, even 400 years ago and beyond.

This is a wind up. By the slim chance you genuinely think this have a read of "A History of the Irish Language: From the Norman Invasion to Independence" by Professor Aidan Doyle.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:33PM

Fourier wrote: »

This is a wind up. By the slim chance you genuinely think this have a read of "A History of the Irish Language: From the Norman Invasion to Independence" by Professor Aidan Doyle.

Just because I am challenging the notions of an Irish speaking Ireland does not mean I am winding anyone up.

The language definitely existed, Queen Elizabeth I even was fluent, but it was not commonly used.

Does Prof Aidan Doyle mention any of these Irish writers who were murdered?

Fourier · 25-08-2019 01:35PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Just because I am challenging the notions of an Irish speaking Ireland does not mean I am winding anyone up.

The language definitely existed, Queen Elizabeth I even was fluent, but it was not commonly used.

Does Prof Aidan Doyle mention any of these Irish writers who were murdered?

It's a history of the language during that entire period and yes talks about the decline of the poetic classes from loss of patronage and executions.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 01:37PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I can tell you for a fact that English certainly was, by command. I am not even going to begin providing sources here, I don't need to.

You do. By the way your claim was that Irish developed along the coast and not in the interior of Ireland. This was prior to the English plantations.

But I can guarantee you there is a lot more evidence of English being spoken than Irish. You will be telling me Red Hugh O'Donnell addressed the Cardinal in Rome as Gaelige when he arrived?

They probably talked Latin. The cardinal didn’t speak English for sure.

When Fiach O'Bryne was sending ransom letters to the earl of Kildare do you think he wrote them in Irish? Do you?

I’m sure that he wrote in whatever language the earl of Kildare would understand.

There was no formal education system in Ireland during penal times. You either obeyed the law and became Protestant or you disobeyed it and taught your kids at the hedge schools. If you were wealthy this didn't matter. Not everyone was though, they never are.

Not sure that helps your cause. People don’t need to be educated to speak a language.

You should read up about the Gaelic revival of the 19th century, it is not a myth.

I’m not saying that it was a myth, I am arguing that the revival of Gaelic wasnt inventing a mythical past.

For the record I believe that English was the predominantly spoken language throughout the country , that is why we are so comfortable with it today. Irish only existed in the Gaeltacht, even 400 years ago and beyond.

That’s insane. Sources for languages spoken in 1600?

By the way you initially weren’t clear about which language you said was indigenous to Ireland when Irish merely existed on the coast* - now it appears to be English. Of course English existed as a transplanted language. It wasn’t native.

* in fact it was on the coast where Irish was less likely to be spoken historically, of course. Given the pale and Viking cities.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 01:40PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Just because I am challenging the notions of an Irish speaking Ireland does not mean I am winding anyone up.

The language definitely existed, Queen Elizabeth I even was fluent, but it was not commonly used.

Does Prof Aidan Doyle mention any of these Irish writers who were murdered?

You are challenging without any facts. Irish was a coastal language only. No facts. English was predominant in the 16C. No facts.

So you may not be on a wind up but you are a bit divorced from reality.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 01:46PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I’m not saying that it was a myth, I am arguing that the revival of Gaelic wasnt inventing a mythical past.

It certainly went hand-in-hand with the Celtic Revival, a major project of which was resurrecting a mythical past based on Irish legends. This revival was driven mostly by the Anglo-Irish intelligentsia (William Butler Yeats, Lady Gregory, "AE" Russell, etc.), most of whom had no Irish or only rudimentary Irish themselves.

The J Stands for Jay · 25-08-2019 01:49PM

paleoperson wrote: »

It's all a bit of a scam I think, a sort of ponzi scheme.

Could there be any more cozy a life to lead than an Irish teacher? You learn a language once and that's it, you're set for life. What a racquet.

You're right, they should have to learn the language every 6 months.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 02:00PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Just because I am challenging the notions of an Irish speaking Ireland does not mean I am winding anyone up.

The language definitely existed, Queen Elizabeth I even was fluent, but it was not commonly used.

Does Prof Aidan Doyle mention any of these Irish writers who were murdered?

Moron you're going in opposition to all historical sources. You should be able to provide evidence to your counter claims.

Upforthematch · 25-08-2019 02:11PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

For the record I believe that English was the predominantly spoken language throughout the country , that is why we are so comfortable with it today. Irish only existed in the Gaeltacht, even 400 years ago and beyond.

Define Gaeltacht please! By Gaeltacht you mean most of munster, connaught & ulster?

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:12PM

janfebmar wrote: »

Hang on a sec. A United Ireland is not coming down the line, we could not afford it and do not want the extremists from both sides anyway. And Irish is not the language of the state, you never see it in a newsagent or book shop or hear it spoken. Up the yard with ye, as they say.

Speak for yourself.

Upforthematch · 25-08-2019 02:13PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If someone can't speak it, then it's foreign to them.

Irish language is not foreign to Ireland though. Neither is English for that matter.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 02:13PM

I am nailing my position to the mast in fairness. I stand by it also.

I thoroughly believe that the power vacuum created after the establishment of the Free state allowed a lot of influences into the power vacuum. Not only did the church massively exploit this to their advantage , I also believe Gaelic revivalists did so as well, albeit not to the same sinister levels as the church did.

The language and the rise of cultural identity were paramount in the spread of the new republic. It needed an enemy to blame for 800 years of oppression and it also needed a language to reprise. It got both.

Hidden between the lie is the truth that it was the English language which was the common spoken tongue. Gaelic revivalists don't like the concept, but covering up with tales of murders, fires and executions doesn't sell it to me either. I am not denying that Irish nationalists weren't persecuted by the ruling British classes, but I am deny the fallacy that they were all talking in Irish, they weren't.

Upforthematch · 25-08-2019 02:16PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am nailing my position to the mast in fairness. I stand by it also.

I thoroughly believe that the power vacuum created after the establishment of the Free state allowed a lot of influences into the power vacuum. Not only did the church massively exploit this to their advantage , I also believe Gaelic revivalists did so as well, albeit not to the same sinister levels as the church did.

The language and the rise of cultural identity were paramount in the spread of the new republic. It needed an enemy to blame for 800 years of oppression and it also needed a language to reprise. It got both.

Hidden between the lie is the truth that it was the English language which was the common spoken tongue. Gaelic revivalists don't like the concept, but covering up with tales of murders, fires and executions doesn't sell it to me either. I am not denying that Irish nationalists weren't persecuted by the ruling British classes, but I am deny the fallacy that they were all talking in Irish, they weren't.

What sources are you drawing from to back up your view?

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

im telling you thats exactly what happens.

and not "someone", but an cigire

and they know when hes coming

and he knows who to call to.

the whole thing is a joke and its a well known joke.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no cigire that makes any kind of inspection on private citizens in the Gaeltacht. This well know joke of yours is fictional.

Only the schools have a cigire visit, but that is the same for every school in the state.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

its not a primary language, there is no such distinction

its one of two official languages

the fact that you can and must be able to transact in Irish in any one of a number of official operations is another item that should absolutely be looked at and scrapped, its far from a moot point and certainly supports nothing in terms of actual demand for usage

There is a clear destinction in the constitution, Irish is the First official and national language, English is accepted as a second official language. The courts have ruled in the past that the constitutional position of Irish is superior to that of English.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 02:22PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am nailing my position to the mast in fairness. I stand by it also.

Most scholars believe that English replaced Irish in the second half (and especially in the final quarter) of the 18th century, which is earlier than many nationalists have historically been willing to admit, but later than your own timeline.

That said, English became the dominant language of government, business, and literature long before it became the dominant language of the entire country. The more prosperous regions of the country (the Pale and the northeast) were the first to become majority English speaking, while the poorest regions were the last. So English was arguably more influential than Irish even while still a minority language.

Fan of Netflix · 25-08-2019 02:24PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language

Could Irish be revived like Hebrew was in Israel? I don't think the will from the state or the people is there. It will likely die off once the Gaeltacht goes. Sad.

Upforthematch · 25-08-2019 02:29PM

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

Most scholars believe that English replaced Irish in the second half (and especially in the final quarter) of the 18th century, which is earlier than many nationalists have historically been willing to admit, but later than your own timeline.

That said, English became the dominant language of government, business, and literature long before it became the dominant language of the entire country. The more prosperous regions of the country (the Pale and the northeast) were the first to become majority English speaking, while the poorest regions were the last. So English was arguably more influential than Irish even while still a minority language.

I think that's really important point. English has always been the language of influence in Ireland for the past 500 years at least.

We all know the north v south partition of Ireland today. But there was the Pale (East) v Rest (West) partition also which was as real for a few hundred years before.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:30PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

State is legally required to provide an education is both official languages of the State.

I'm quite certain that this is not the case, there has been no precedent for such a requirement under the constitution being used to force the state to provide education through Irish were none is currently available. Given the huge battle parents have had to go through in many cases to get the Dept of Education to open a Gaelscoil, I am sure a court case would have been taken long ago if the constitution placed such a duty on the state.

As such, I am confident that there is no constitutional imperative to provide education in either language.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 02:35PM

Upforthematch wrote: »

What sources are you drawing from to back up your view?

I am going for lunch , let's discuss later.

I haven't started on the parallels of the growth of the GAA and the English FA yet, I am terrified it might go off topic.

If you can name me one Irish novel written between say 1641 and lets say Charles Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (1859) your input would be massively appreciated.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 02:36PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Where were people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht? Where exactly?

Everywhere. Everywhere was the Gaeltacht pre 18C.

Please name me these " English Towns " , which ones are they ? I am not being smart here, but name me 5 " English towns " in Ireland. Only five, but name them. Name them in the context of your argument.

Basically any town founded by Normans. Places like Clonmel etc.

If all the farmers were speaking Irish where are their poems, stories and novels that they wrote about their lives? Name me a few famous Gael scribes from 400 years ago, who wrote it all down before the evil Saxons came and burnt it all down in their big bonfire?

I’m not the expert in Irish literature but it surely existed. I recall doing 16C Irish poetry in school.

The famine happened in 1845. Are you telling me that everyone spoke Irish before that?

The majority.

If that is the case then why did Daniel O'Connell address 100,000 people in the town of Ennis in English 25 years before the famine even started? Please explain that , especially given that 80% were farmers who only spoke Irish?

Well they were possibly multi lingual but O’Connell himself didn’t like Irish that much.

It’s very hard to get a read on your philosophy.

Would it be right in saying that.

1) Irish wasn’t the majority language in Ireland even in 1600 or before, or
2) it was never the majority language at all confined to the coasts, or/and
3) the majority language was always English?

Is that your claim.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 02:37PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am going for lunch , let's discuss later.

I haven't started on the parallels of the growth of the GAA and the English FA yet, I am terrified it might go off topic.

If you can name me one Irish novel written between say 1641 and lets say Charles Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (1859) your input would be massively appreciated.

In other words I know what I posted is rubbish so I can't back it up now.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 02:37PM

Upforthematch wrote: »

I think that's really important point. English has always been the language of influence in Ireland for the past 500 years at least.

We all know the north v south partition of Ireland today. But there was the Pale (East) v Rest (West) partition also which was as real for a few hundred years before.

Yes. It was the language of the ruling classes, largely invaders.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 02:40PM

The whole asking for a novel in Irish as proof etc would rule out if existence any language that never produced a novel, which is many of them.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:45PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Where were people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht? Where exactly?

Please name me these " English Towns " , which ones are they ? I am not being smart here, but name me 5 " English towns " in Ireland. Only five, but name them. Name them in the context of your argument.

If all the farmers were speaking Irish where are their poems, stories and novels that they wrote about their lives? Name me a few famous Gael scribes from 400 years ago, who wrote it all down before the evil Saxons came and burnt it all down in their big bonfire?

The famine happened in 1845. Are you telling me that everyone spoke Irish before that?

If that is the case then why did Daniel O'Connell address 100,000 people in the town of Ennis in English 25 years before the famine even started? Please explain that, especially given that 80% were farmers who only spoke Irish?

Most large towns in Ireland were garrision towns. Any town that had a wall was an English town. I can use Waterford as an example because a map of Irish language writers from the county was recently published. Waterford City, Dungarvan and Lismore were all English Towns, and yet you get Irish language writers from all over the county not just the small Gaeltacht that remains today.

http://waterfordcouncil.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapTour/index.html?appid=8872d536fd30470ea5a7073b43392f86

It's well known that the majority of the crowd at O'Connolls monster meatings could not understand him because he spoke in English. There were no loud speakers at the time so the vast majority of people there could not hear him speak anyway. What he said was pased by word of mouth through the crowd and was translated to Irish as it went.

Upforthematch · 25-08-2019 02:47PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am going for lunch , let's discuss later.

I haven't started on the parallels of the growth of the GAA and the English FA yet, I am terrified it might go off topic.

If you can name me one Irish novel written between say 1641 and lets say Charles Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (1859) your input would be massively appreciated.

I'm heading off as well so I don't have the time to research for you.

Off the top of my head a book you would benefit from if you are interested in irish literature from the time is Sean O Tuama's An Duanaire Poems of the Dispossessed. Reviews on Amazon here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Duanaire-1600-1900-Poems-Dispossessed/dp/0851053645/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=duanaire&qid=1566740234&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 02:48PM

Upforthematch wrote: »

I think that's really important point. English has always been the language of influence in Ireland for the past 500 years at least.

When you say "language of influence" do you mean language with the most powerful military force supporting it?

The death knell of the Irish Language

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