The death knell of the Irish Language

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:14AM

tim3000 wrote: »

I absolutely do mean it. Its nothing to do with complexity or lack of understanding, its to do with utility. Irish is not useful to vast majority of people in their day to day lives. It is not the language of science, business, finance or entertainment. It is not a useful language to communicate with hence why you and I are debating in English.

But your hypothesis seems to be that once the usefulness of something is debated in public that means it's useless?

There's more people in the world claiming climate change research is useless than claiming Irish is useless. Is that debate over too?

25-08-2019 11:21AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But your hypothesis seems to be that once the usefulness of something is debated in public that means it's useless?

There's more people in the world claiming climate change research is useless than claiming Irish is useless. Is that debate over too?

They were saying the fact we're debating in English indicates that Irish is not useful, not that we're debating at all

tim3000 · 25-08-2019 11:24AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But your hypothesis seems to be that once the usefulness of something is debated in public that means it's useless?

There's more people in the world claiming climate change research is useless than claiming Irish is useless. Is that debate over too?

No thats not what I am saying I'm saying that the very fact that we are debating Irish's usefullness in English speaks volumes about the usefullness for Irish in the first place do you not agree?

janfebmar · 25-08-2019 11:25AM

bluewolf wrote: »

They were saying the fact we're debating in English indicates that Irish is not useful, not that we're debating at all

99% of Irish people could not debate in Irish, despite all the billions wasted on it over the years.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:34AM

tim3000 wrote: »

No thats not what I am saying I'm saying that the very fact that we are debating Irish's usefullness in English speaks volumes about the usefullness for Irish in the first place do you not agree?

No I don't at all. Wade Davis, the cultural anthropologist argues all the time about the usefulness of native languages in English.

In Canada they often debate the usefulness of French in English.

I'm not arguing that Irish is unique, I'm arguing against the dumbing down of a society. No one should be saying we're bilingual but aiming for that is a great thing. Aiming away from it is dumbing down IMHO.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:36AM

janfebmar wrote: »

99% of Irish people could not debate in Irish, despite all the billions wasted on it over the years.

J judging by some of the posts you've shared here I'd say 99% of English speakers can't debate in English either.

janfebmar · 25-08-2019 11:38AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

J judging by some of the posts you've shared here I'd say 99% of English speakers can't debate in English either.

More deflection from yourself. What else would anyone expect?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:39AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If someone can't speak it, then it's foreign to them.

OK like Spanish is a foreign language to an English speaker living in Spain. I don't think we should base our debates on what migrants into Ireland count as foreign?

swarlb · 25-08-2019 11:42AM

Everyone who has posted here can speak, write and read English, regardless of their debating prowess.
That is the point.
Possibly less than 1% could do the same in Irish.
Maybe someone should put up a post in Irish, just to see the extent of it's 'popularity'

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 11:43AM

Fourier wrote: »

To save Franz the effort. Irish was the majority language of the entire island until the 19th century.

At the end of the 18th century it was starting to decline so that by the famine it wasn't the language of the entire island. In 1801 >90% spoke Irish as we see from the census done at the time. By the famine it was less than this but we don't know the exact number but between 70% and 45% is what I've seen.

Why did O Connell address people in English? It's funny you picked this because the reason is he believed people should shift to English to be part of a modern society. He was speaking mainly to a younger bilingual generation and making a point to cast aside Irish. It was a rhetorical technique aimed at the fact that most spoke Irish at home.

As for poems etc we have reams of literary material from the professional poets, the Filid, who were a huge part of our political landscape for hundreds of years.

The idea that Irish developed on the coast in a few towns is just daft, what did it develop from?

Can you please post a link which can verify the results of the 1801 Irish census? I can't it find it anywhere, are you sure that you are not quoting the 1901 census?

Inexplicably census results for the famine period can never be found, it looks like that it was not just Irish agricultural practices which were being neglected at the time. Shít happens I suppose. The results of the 1813 census are the first ever recorded, so I don't know where you got your facts for the 90 % speakers of the 1801 census, you might clarify this for everyone.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/pre1901.html

How come no Irish language literature exists form the 16th, 17th and 18th century? I am not talking Martin O'Direain poems here either. If the Bronte sisters and Charles Dickens were knocking out fiction novels, where are the irish language equivalents, who was writing our fiction? Moreover, who was reading it?

The concept of the language developing in isolated parts of Western Ireland is not as daft as you would imagine, particularly given the fact that both Welsh and Gaelic in Scotland developed in the same way. As I mentioned before languages don't develop over night, not do they vanish overnight either. Irish as a language is thousands of years old, but it was only homogenised by the Gaelic league in the late 19th century, believe.

How come if 90% of us were speaking the language it was never formally recognised by the Catholic church, I respect that Catholicism was banned and censored during penal times, but how come Irish did not survive through the church?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:45AM

swarlb wrote: »

Everyone who has posted here can speak, write and read English, regardless of their debating prowess.
That is the point.
Possibly less than 1% could do the same in Irish.
Maybe someone should put up a post in Irish, just to see the extent of it's 'popularity'

But again I'll point out that popularity does not mean it's a bad thing. There may a be multitude of people in the UK who were uneducated and believed that the EU is a bad thing. They voted out and they're now finding out it's a bad thing.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 11:47AM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you please post a link which can verify the results of the 1801 Irish census? I can't it find it anywhere, are you sure that you are not quoting the 1901 census?

Inexplicably census results for the famine period can never be found, it looks like that it was not just Irish agricultural practices which were being neglected at the time. Shít happens I suppose. The results of the 1813 census are the first ever recorded, so I don't know where you got your facts for the 90 % speakers of the 1801 census, you might clarify this for everyone.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/pre1901.html

How come no Irish language literature exists form the 16th, 17th and 18th century? I am not talking Martin O'Direain poems here either. If the Bronte sisters and Charles Dickens were knocking out fiction novels, where are the irish language equivalents, who was writing our fiction? Moreover, who was reading it?

The concept of the language developing in isolated parts of Western Ireland is not as daft as you would imagine, particularly given the fact that both Welsh and Gaelic in Scotland developed in the same way. As I mentioned before languages don't develop over night, not do they vanish overnight either. Irish as a language is thousands of years old, but it was only homogenised by the Gaelic league in the late 19th century, believe.

How come if 90% of us were speaking the language it was never formally recognised by the Catholic church, I respect that Catholicism was banned and censored during penal times, but how come Irish did not survive through the church?

IAMMORON you sound very young but this is something you should probably look up yourself. Why don't you think people were widely educated in speaking Irish. I'll give you a clue it rhymes with Sh1tish rule in Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2019 11:50AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

OK like Spanish is a foreign language to an English speaker living in Spain. I don't think we should base our debates on what migrants into Ireland count as foreign?

If they are unfamiliar with it yes. That is the definition of the word: "strange or unfamiliar."

Implying that it ONLY extends to nationality is naive.

janfebmar · 25-08-2019 11:52AM

swarlb wrote: »

Everyone who has posted here can speak, write and read English, regardless of their debating prowess.
That is the point.
Possibly less than 1% could do the same in Irish.
Maybe someone should put up a post in Irish, just to see the extent of it's 'popularity'

Last time I looked the Irish language section on boards.ie had little or no posts, a few a month. There is no Irish language version of boards.ie. The language is dead. Apart from the hundreds of millions the taxpayer pays in to the Irish language, and the vested interests.

Portsalon · 25-08-2019 11:53AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

IAMMORON you sound very young but this is something you should probably look up yourself. Why don't you think people were widely educated in speaking Irish. I'll give you a clue it rhymes with Sh1tish rule in Ireland.

How about you answer the simple question that he asked you, viz. "Can you please post a link which can verify the results of the 1801 Irish census? I can't it find it anywhere, are you sure that you are not quoting the 1901 census?"

I'd like to see it too.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 11:53AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

IAMMORON you sound very young but this is something you should probably look up yourself. Why don't you think people were widely educated in speaking Irish. I'll give you a clue it rhymes with Sh1tish rule in Ireland.

Don't condescend me, I am probably older than you.

Can you please post a link for the 1801 census results , I cannot find them anywhere?

tim3000 · 25-08-2019 11:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

No I don't at all. Wade Davis, the cultural anthropologist argues all the time about the usefulness of native languages in English.

In Canada they often debate the usefulness of French in English.

I'm not arguing that Irish is unique, I'm arguing against the dumbing down of a society. No one should be saying we're bilingual but aiming for that is a great thing. Aiming away from it is dumbing down IMHO.

Instead of referencing an antropologist whose livelihood is the study of culture and language why dont you tell me why you don't agree?

My apologies if the above sounds aggressive I dont mean to be.

I agree that a bilingual nation is something to strive for but dont you think that the time/money/effort spent on Irish could not be spent on something a little more worth while such as the STEM fields?

Fourier · 25-08-2019 12:09PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you please post a link which can verify the results of the 1801 Irish census? I can't it find it anywhere, are you sure that you are not quoting the 1901 census?

Sorry got it mixed up. It's from Mac Giolla Chríost "The Irish Language in Ireland" 2005, where he looks at data from various Baronies taken from 1771 - 1781.

How come no Irish language literature exists form the 16th, 17th and 18th century? I am not talking Martin O'Direain poems here either. If the Bronte sisters and Charles Dickens were knocking out fiction novels, where are the irish language equivalents, who was writing our fiction? Moreover, who was reading it?

Because the literate classes were executed or killed during the 17th century. There is literature from the 16th or before in manuscripts. The printing press never took off here for various reasons.

The concept of the language developing in isolated parts of Western Ireland is not as daft as you would imagine, particularly given the fact that both Welsh and Gaelic in Scotland developed in the same way.

Irish as attested in 10th century manuscripts was spoken across the country. No academic account says Irish developed along the coasts. Irish and Welsh evolved from Proto-Celtic and were the majority language of this island and lower Britain respectively by the 2nd century BC. English didn't arrive in England until the 6th century.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 12:13PM

Portsalon wrote: »

How about you answer the simple question that he asked you, viz. "Can you please post a link which can verify the results of the 1801 Irish census? I can't it find it anywhere, are you sure that you are not quoting the 1901 census?"

I'd like to see it too.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Don't condescend me, I am probably older than you.

Can you please post a link for the 1801 census results , I cannot find them anywhere?

Guys why are you asking me for the census? I didn't mention it once.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 12:16PM

tim3000 wrote: »

Instead of referencing an antropologist whose livelihood is the study of culture and language why dont you tell me why you don't agree?

I don't agree because a multitude of studies state that bilingualism has multiple cognitive benefits.

My apologies if the above sounds aggressive I dont mean to be.

No problem I love a good debate.

I agree that a bilingual nation is something to strive for but dont you think that the time/money/effort spent on Irish could not be spent on something a little more worth while such as the STEM fields?

We should definitely spend more money on STEM but it doesn't have to an either or scenario.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 12:23PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Guys why are you asking me for the census? I didn't mention it once.

Noted, my apologies for snapping also.

But if you can find the link it would be great. I am not sure it exists if I am honest.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2019 12:27PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't agree because a multitude of studies state that bilingualism has multiple cognitive benefits.

No problem I love a good debate.

We should definitely spend more money on STEM but it doesn't have to an either or scenario.

Bilingualism is not the only way to achieve said benefits. A person or society is not more intelligent than someone else just because they speak more languages.

This is confirmation bias: you're starting with the (false) confirmation that people need Irish. Now you're looking for evidence to confirm your conclusion.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 12:33PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Noted, my apologies for snapping also.

But if you can find the link it would be great. I am not sure it exists if I am honest.

No problem, nor did I want to appear condescending. I'll have a look.

Fourier · 25-08-2019 12:36PM

There isn't an 1801 census, I had it confused with Barony data studied in the paper I mentioned above.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 12:47PM

Are we really arguing that Irish and Scottish were only spoken on the coastlines and in the middle of the country people spoke English or some other language? Where does this come from.

Irish died out across the 19C in part because national schools didn’t teach it, which means the Catholic Church bears some responsibility. It’s the opposite of what’s been claimed here though - this situation lasted until 1890. So much for a fake urban cultural catholic nationalism imposing its will on a peasantry by forcing Irish on them, the opposite is true.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 12:50PM

Fourier wrote: »

There isn't an 1801 census, I had it confused with Barony data studied in the paper I mentioned above.

Can you post a link for the Barony data, I would like to see it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not denying the existence of the language. My beef is the perception and notion that the entire country were dancing at the crossroads as Gaeilge before the Roundheads arrived. I just don't buy it if I am honest.

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 12:56PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Are we really arguing that Irish and Scottish were only spoken on the coastlines and in the middle of the country people spoke English or some other language? Where does this come from.

Irish died out across the 19C in part because national schools didn’t teach it, which means the Catholic Church bears some responsibility. It’s the opposite of what’s been claimed here though - this situation lasted until 1890. So much for a fake urban cultural catholic nationalism imposing its will on a peasantry by forcing Irish on them, the opposite is true.

This is exactly my argument.

Your second paragraph is the conjecture we were taught in school, I am frankly not all that comfortable with it. It is too easy to blame the language demise on the hedge schools, it is a lot more complex than that.

If you could contextualise what you are actually trying to emphasise in your final sentence I would love to discuss, you are being slightly vague however.

" So much for a fake urban cultural catholic nationalism imposing its will on a peasantry by forcing Irish on them, the opposite is true"

What is this exactly, where did you read about this?

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:05PM

Fourier wrote: »

Sorry got it mixed up. It's from Mac Giolla Chríost "The Irish Language in Ireland" 2005, where he looks at data from various Baronies taken from 1771 - 1781.

Because the literate classes were executed or killed during the 17th century. There is literature from the 16th or before in manuscripts. The printing press never took off here for various reasons.

Irish as attested in 10th century manuscripts was spoken across the country. No academic account says Irish developed along the coasts. Irish and Welsh evolved from Proto-Celtic and were the majority language of this island and lower Britain respectively by the 2nd century BC. English didn't arrive in England until the 6th century.

This is waffle. This is the diatribe we are forced to believe , it is worse than religion. Your telling me that every Irish playwright, author, poet was somehow executed or murdered? Name them please , I am all ears.

Furthermore you are saying that none of their works survived because we had no printing presses? Are you being serious here?

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 01:11PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is exactly my argument.

That’s an insane argument absent of any facts. What language do you think was spoken in Ireland, where did it come from, what happened to it? Also, sources.

second paragraph is the conjecture we were taught in school, I am frankly not all that comfortable with it. It is too easy to blame the language demise on the hedge schools, it is a lot more complex than that.

Oh for Christ sake. I didn’t say hedge schools. National schools.

If you could contextualise what you are actually trying to emphasise in your final sentence I would love to discuss, you are being slightly vague however.

" So much for a fake urban cultural catholic nationalism imposing its will on a peasantry by forcing Irish on them, the opposite is true"

What is this exactly, where did you read about this?

In your original post that was your claim. That the Gaelic league invented Irish as the language of Ireland around the late 19C and subsequently forced it upon the country. You haven’t backed down on that either.

We still don’t know what language you think was prevalent in Ireland when Irish was spoken merely on the coasts.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 01:13PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

This is waffle. This is the diatribe we are forced to believe , it is worse than religion. Your telling me that every Irish playwright, author, poet was somehow executed or murdered? Name them please , I am all ears.

Furthermore you are saying that none of their works survived because we had no printing presses? Are you being serious here?

The aristocrats that funded the playwrights, authors, and poets were expelled. Not that there aren’t extant gaelic writings from the era, just not that many.

You seem to seriously believe that Irish wasn’t the majority language pre the 19C. Are you sure you are not a parody account?

The death knell of the Irish Language

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