Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:17PM

MadYaker wrote: »

The UK stands to suffer much more than anyone else in a hard brexit so I’m not sure why they think the EU will link first. I think the current UK gov underestimates the importance of the gfa and the EUs commitment to it.

The UK is not breaching the Belfast Agreement.

Charles Babbage · 24-08-2019 05:23PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The UK is not breaching the Belfast Agreement.

Repeating a lie does not make it true.

We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South and between these islands.

.......the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:23PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The EU will do nothing to put pressure on Ireland, it would be the end of the union. Shafting a loyal and committed member state to please a departing one, who is essentially telling the EU to eff off.

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

Nody · 24-08-2019 05:25PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

You know I've heard this lie since before the Brexit vote and "how EU will backstab Ireland soon(tm)"; how have you still not picked up on the fact that there is zero, nada, none, interest of EU to backstab Ireland because it simply does not make sense? If you want to talk about backstabbing however we have Boris and his lovely tories we can discuss in great detail but honestly it's a waste time simply because come Oct. 31st their lies will be exposed.

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:44PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Thing is, Ireland could just veto any deal for the British.

It's not really in the EU's interest to allow Britain to dictate the terms, or allow them to break up the EU.

Britain again, are overestimating their power, all they really have are lies about trade (with Ireland), German car industry no nonsense, a belief they are funding Europe and a whole lot of nationalist bluster and obnoxious smirks.

What they easily want to forget, is that the deadline had already passed, I don't remember the EU dealing with them against our interests.

It's why I was against the original extension and any new extension.

It's essentially appeasement.

There's no veto, it's a qualied majority vote.

Seth Brundle · 24-08-2019 05:48PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

Can you please provide one example of where this has actually happened?

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:48PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Repeating a lie does not make it true.

We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South and between these islands.

.......the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;

Nice highlighting but it proves my point.

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:51PM

Nody wrote: »

You know I've heard this lie since before the Brexit vote and "how EU will backstab Ireland soon(tm)"; how have you still not picked up on the fact that there is zero, nada, none, interest of EU to backstab Ireland because it simply does not make sense? If you want to talk about backstabbing however we have Boris and his lovely tories we can discuss in great detail but honestly it's a waste time simply because come Oct. 31st their lies will be exposed.

So far it's been in the EU's interest to use you as a bargaining chip, if it perceives you as a liability instead of an asset then it will act in what it perceives to be its interests.

ThePanjandrum · 24-08-2019 05:54PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Can you please provide one example of where this has actually happened?

The EU allowed Greece into the Euro Zone when it should not have been permitted to do so. When the wheels came off the cart the EU ensured that Greece suffered rather than the EU itself.

FrancieBrady · 24-08-2019 05:56PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

So far it's been in the EU's interest to use you as a bargaining chip, if it perceives you as a liability instead of an asset then it will act in what it perceives to be its interests.

It really is rather juvenile to paint the EU as this sinister organisation which, when it suits you, we are somehow not a part of.

fash · 24-08-2019 05:58PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The UK is not breaching the Belfast Agreement.

Indeed - however it currently plans to do so and its current actions- including going into government with the DUP come very close to doing so.

fash · 24-08-2019 06:00PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

I think you are projecting from what the UK had done, does and intends to do.

24-08-2019 06:04PM

It's always important to remember that " the needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few" and in this context to maintain the single market on Mainland EU, it is easier to have the customs border along the English channel, than in the Irish sea.

In the event of a no deal or a bad deal (for the EU), they would have no qualms in imposing such a border to "protect" the EU, in reality all crossing points are checkpoints now as the movement of everything through them are already controlled to some extent.

trellheim · 24-08-2019 06:06PM

When people say the EU is there some shadowy cabal I am missing ? We are the EU , 28 countries. Soon to be 27, but nevertheless.

fash · 24-08-2019 06:10PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

There's no veto, it's a qualied majority vote.

Ireland has an effective veto - to prove that the EU (unlike the UK) cares about the interests of its small elements - which consist the greater part and greater political force within the EU, to demonstrate the reason for banding together, because the EU (shock horror - and unlike the UK) actually cares about peace, human rights and peace treaties, to show that the EU's word is its bond and to show that "Bojo-ism" is not effective.
To go against Ireland would prove the Brexiters "right" and end the EU - it is even less likely than the UK having its cake and eating it or £350M per week extra going to the NHS.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-08-2019 06:10PM

Jizique wrote: »

The thought of damage to Ireland is almost the only thing that keeps them going at this stage

Ibec warns economic growth could half in event of no-deal Brexit

GPD next year might grow 4% unless Trump starts downturn in which case it would be 2.7%

Best case halving our growth to 2% still puts us above UK growth for all but 2 years out of the last decade.

2018 2,828,640M.$ 1.4%
2017 2,639,970M.$ 1.8%
2016 2,669,110M.$ 1.8%
2015 2,897,060M.$ 2.3%
2014 3,036,310M.$ 2.9%
2013 2,755,360M.$ 2.0%
2012 2,677,080M.$ 1.4%
2011 2,635,800M.$ 1.6%
2010 2,455,310M.$ 1.7%
2009 2,403,360M.$ -4.2%
2008 2,934,750M.$ -0.3%

Worst case if Trump pushes the button on a trade war our economy will only grow by typical UK amounts , while the UK needs trade deals, it won't be pretty for them.

And IBEC use the poor mouth all the time, can't afford to pay taxes, can't afford to be paying the workers.

trellheim · 24-08-2019 06:12PM

sorry spent ages fighting brexiteers on twitter its fking ridiculous, amount of strawmen and dead cats.

Farage currently believes Boris is going for (WA minus) . The sheer silence from the ERG (and I know I do go on about this) makes me believe .

I think they believe they can do it

Next up in pressure stakes : direct rule of NI I would say

storker · 24-08-2019 06:13PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

So far it's been in the EU's interest to use you as a bargaining chip, if it perceives you as a liability instead of an asset then it will act in what it perceives to be its interests.

Very possibly, but it's very unlikely that the EU will perceive such an act to be in its best interests, as it would be very damaging to the EU project as a whole, sending the message that the EU is happy to throw a member state to the wolves in order to satisfy one that is rushing, no wait, sidling, painfully slowly, towards the exit. There are more than just British and Irish eyes watching this fiasco unfold.

fash · 24-08-2019 06:21PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

So far it's been in the EU's interest to use you as a bargaining chip, if it perceives you as a liability instead of an asset then it will act in what it perceives to be its interests.

That sounds suspiciously like the UK, how it behaves and what its politicians have repeatedly said about Ireland.
Have you considered that you are just projecting? I mean this seriously.

storker · 24-08-2019 06:24PM

fash wrote: »

That sounds suspiciously like the UK, how it behaves and what its politicians have repeatedly said about Ireland.
Have you considered that you are just projecting? I mean this seriously.

There's an old saying about how people who don't trust other people tend to be that way because the can't be trusted themselves...

Seth Brundle · 24-08-2019 06:42PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The EU allowed Greece into the Euro Zone when it should not have been permitted to do so. When the wheels came off the cart the EU ensured that Greece suffered rather than the EU itself.

So Greece isn't in recovery and showing positive signs?
Has the Greek government not decided to commit with the EU?
The Greeks weren't thrown under a bus despite your claim!

Capt'n Midnight · 24-08-2019 06:51PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

In other news the House of Commons canteen is still in the midst of its longest cutlery shortage.

And everyone knows the DUP will be thrown under a bus the instant they are no longer needed. And the last thing they'll hear is the beeping as the bus reverses back over them.

The ERG are on record saying that the Backstop isn't enough. And anyone with an inking of UK history will know that appeasement didn't work. Join the dots.

prunudo · 24-08-2019 07:05PM

Slightly off topic but just listened to a piece from Boris on his way to the G7 summit with his faux worry how the issues of the Amazon burning and climate change is top priority.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Brexit all about ripping up trade deals with your neighbours to do trade with far off places around the globe. What effect will all these products being distributed around the world have on climate change. The whole thing is the biggest hypocritical con.

fash · 24-08-2019 07:14PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The EU allowed Greece into the Euro Zone when it should not have been permitted to do so.

Technically complied with the requirements (insufficiently well drafted requirements) and innocent optimism over skepticism pragmatism.
Perhaps the EU should learn from that when in future dealing with those clearly acting in bad faith...

When the wheels came off the cart the EU ensured that Greece suffered rather than the EU itself.

Actually if you paid attention, you'll see that the EU (or rather Eurozone - not the UK) took quite a lot of the pain.
I'm sure you'll also agree that the UK - with its parasitic treatment of Ireland as shown by its refusal to accept early payment of the "Ulster Bank Loan" and centuries of truly appalling parasitic and blood sucking "lending" viciously enforced by mafia-esque brutal violence- is not in a position to criticise anyone.

24-08-2019 07:20PM

prunudo wrote: »

Slightly off topic but just listened to a piece from Boris on his way to the G7 summit with his faux worry how the issues of the Amazon burning and climate change is top priority.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Brexit all about ripping up trade deals with your neighbours to do trade with far off places around the globe. What effect will all these products being distributed around the world have on climate change. The whole thing is the biggest hypocritical con.

Ask most Brexiteers and they'll say it's the importation of people to undercut wages for unskilled work and the export of skilled jobs to cheaper countries.

Both things that are not really EU related, rather they are as a result of globalisation.

Big business loves globalisation as they can cherry pick where to employ people and where to pay taxes, UK employees were shafted by their own elite, but they don't realise this.

Strazdas · 24-08-2019 07:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ask most Brexiteers and they'll say it's the importation of people to undercut wages for unskilled work and the export of skilled jobs to cheaper countries.

Both things that are not really EU related, rather they are as a result of globalisation.

Big business loves globalisation as they can cherry pick where to employ people and where to pay taxes, UK employees were shafted by their own elite, but they don't realise this.

If anyone is 'driving down wages', it's their own British bosses but they don't want to hear that.

24-08-2019 07:38PM

Strazdas wrote: »

If anyone is 'driving down wages', it's their own British bosses but they don't want to hear that.

A lot of those bosses have even sold their businesses to foreign (non EU) multinational corporations, a trend that started with Thatcher & Reagan and their "monitorist" policies as demanded by the industrialists of the time.
Dismantling of union power etc.

First Up · 24-08-2019 07:39PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

It would happily stab you in the back if it felt that it was in its interest.

Who's "it"?

Flex · 24-08-2019 07:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's always important to remember that " the needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few" and in this context to maintain the single market on Mainland EU, it is easier to have the customs border along the English channel, than in the Irish sea.

In the event of a no deal or a bad deal (for the EU), they would have no qualms in imposing such a border to "protect" the EU, in reality all crossing points are checkpoints now as the movement of everything through them are already controlled to some extent.

I just cant see that happening; if the EU did that they would have just demonstrated to every small and medium sized member that if an external state begins agitating and targeting any specific member state, that the EU will capitulate and abandon that member to make the external state happy, in effect destroying the European project. It would also fly completely in the face of what the EU has been saying the past three years.

24-08-2019 08:04PM

Flex wrote: »

I just cant see that happening; if the EU did that they would have just demonstrated to every small and medium sized member that if an external state begins agitating and targeting any specific member state, that the EU will capitulate and abandon that member to make the external state happy, in effect destroying the European project. It would also fly completely in the face of what the EU has been saying the past three years.

It would be more of a defensive position to protect the integrity of the single market.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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