Chinese tyres. I am glad ......

20-08-2019 11:37AM

Cyclepath wrote: »

Ah sure maybe you're right. Sure you can prove anything with 'facts'!
Damn scientists fiddling about in their 'laboratories'...

And, why on earth would you want to use actual scientific data in your decision? Far better to base your purchase on some vague notion of branding and a few anecdotes that the barman passed on about a mate of his who knows this chap whose sister put her micra arse first through a hedge last year on those bloody chinese tyres...

You do know they actually drive around test tracks too don't you?

Eu marking is to certify the product is structurally safe as it it won’t just fall to pieces etc it is nothing to do with actual performance.

There is any amount of videos out there testing budget tyres vs premium which will tell the very same story as the two videos linked in this thread.

When it comes to tyres brand names matter, performance within brand names varies also but the worst tyres from a recognized manufacturer will be far far better than the best from an unknown budget brand.

Cyclepath · 20-08-2019 11:56AM

Luella Harsh Sideline wrote: »

Eu marking is to certify the product is structurally safe as it it won’t just fall to pieces etc it is nothing to do with actual performance.

There is any amount of videos out there testing budget tyres vs premium which will tell the very same story as the two videos linked in this thread.

When it comes to tyres brand names matter, performance within brand names varies also but the worst tyres from a recognized manufacturer will be far far better than the best from an unknown budget brand.

My point wasn't to argue for cheap tyres Vs expensive, or to claim that there's no difference. My point is that you should make a data driven decision.

If a tyre has an EU 'A' rating in the wet, you can trust that tyre's wet surface performance above one that has a 'C' rating in the wet. The EU tyre testing doesn't send a GTI around the Nurburgring in the wet, but you can be pretty sure that if a tyre gets a good lab rating, it's not too shabby.

Have you any data or information to suggest that a tyre can spoof the EU test and turn out to be dangerous in day to day usage?

bennya · 20-08-2019 12:22PM

Try having a car pull an unexpected U-turn in front of you when you're metres away, and having to simultaneously hit the anchors hard and steer around the obstacle with very little room to spare.

Come back and tell me that tyres don't matter, and I'll show you a spot where decent tyres avoided a fatality that day.

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 12:27PM

bennya wrote: »

Try having a car pull an unexpected U-turn in front of you when you're metres away, and having to simultaneously hit the anchors hard and steer around the obstacle with very little room to spare.

Come back and tell me that tyres don't matter, and I'll show you a spot where decent tyres avoided a fatality that day.

This is also a good example to know how your car reacts to sudden movements.

zilog_jones · 20-08-2019 12:39PM

Cyclepath wrote: »

You do know they actually drive around test tracks too don't you?

I'll admit I didn't. But the tests are limited to specific operating conditions, and there can still be a surprising difference just between tyres that are "A" rated for wet grip, for example.

I find the ADAC and German magazine (e.g. Auto Bild) tests usually provide more useful information, e.g. http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2019-ADAC-Summer-Tyre-Test-185-65-R15.htm

Of course they shouldn't be taken as gospel either, but it's good to see multiple opinions.

I'm not buying cheap junk either way, saving €50 or so on buying from unknown brands is not worth the risk IMO. It's the emergency situation where bad tyres will let you down. But "premium" brands aren't always going to mean they'll be optimal for your driving conditions - many expensive summer tyres are surprisingly poor in the wet, for example.

TheBoyConor · 20-08-2019 01:24PM

This whole nonsense of summer and winter tyres you'd be hearing about in recent years is nothing more than a wind up front the tyre sellers. Like, in an fairness now, who did you ever hear of who of changes their tyres coming into summer and into winter? I literally never heard of anyone doing that. If any of my family or friends heard I was doing that they'd think I had gone cracked wasting money.

Now, maybe if you were in Norway or Russia where they actually get proper winters it might be warranted. But here in Ireland we don't really get summers or winters. We just have a varying level of damp.

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-08-2019 01:32PM

True. Its certainly a tiny factor compared to all the accidents and deaths caused by people driving cars fitted with Chinese tyres. The all too familiar news item about the sad death on the road that finished up with "...the car was fitted with Chinese tyres...".

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 01:32PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

This whole nonsense of summer and winter tyres you'd be hearing about in recent years is nothing more than a wind up front the tyre sellers. Like, in an fairness now, who did you ever hear of who of changes their tyres coming into summer and into winter? I literally never heard of anyone doing that. If any of my family or friends heard I was doing that they'd think I had gone cracked wasting money.

Now, maybe if you were in Norway or Russia where they actually get proper winters it might be warranted. But here in Ireland we don't really get summers or winters. We just have a varying level of damp.

I'd see it as more of a get out of jail free card for tyre manufacturers if anyone ever took them to court.
"Of course you crashed, you were on summer tyres in December" or something.

CJhaughey · 20-08-2019 01:35PM

Cyclepath wrote: »

My point wasn't to argue for cheap tyres Vs expensive, or to claim that there's no difference. My point is that you should make a data driven decision.

If a tyre has an EU 'A' rating in the wet, you can trust that tyre's wet surface performance above one that has a 'C' rating in the wet. The EU tyre testing doesn't send a GTI around the Nurburgring in the wet, but you can be pretty sure that if a tyre gets a good lab rating, it's not too shabby.

Have you any data or information to suggest that a tyre can spoof the EU test and turn out to be dangerous in day to day usage?

The EU tyre label is a step in the right direction but the test is woefully inadequate in terms of rating more than one parameter.
Tyre wet grip is straight line braking in wet conditions.
No wet cornering, no dry grip and no aquaplane performance.
Just because it says A Wet Grip doesn't mean it will perform in all conditions.
A tyre that has a C rating for wet grip may actually be better in many other conditions then just straight line wet braking which sounds confusing but it may be the truth.

Who assesses the tyre manufacturers tyres?
The manufacturer is responsible for testing and labelling, there are parameters but there is plenty of variance as well.

I don't look at EU tyre labels, I'm not buying a fridge I am buying safety critical parts for my car and the current label is just a piece of coloured plastic.

Reviews and tests are always going to be better than a self assessed label.

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-08-2019 01:38PM

If a safety critical part weren't safe, then it wouldn't be on sale.

Of course, safety critical is rated for normal driving. They don't cater for those who want to drive unsafely. Quite reasonably.
So anyone actually noticing a difference in tyre performance in the real world, is driving unsafely.

zilog_jones · 20-08-2019 01:48PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

This whole nonsense of summer and winter tyres you'd be hearing about in recent years is nothing more than a wind up front the tyre sellers. Like, in an fairness now, who did you ever hear of who of changes their tyres coming into summer and into winter? I literally never heard of anyone doing that. If any of my family or friends heard I was doing that they'd think I had gone cracked wasting money.

Now, maybe if you were in Norway or Russia where they actually get proper winters it might be warranted. But here in Ireland we don't really get summers or winters. We just have a varying level of damp.

Average (daily mean) temperatures in Ireland are below 7 degrees for nearly half of the year - that's often regarded as the threshold of where winter tyres perform better than summer tyres.

And you say yourself we don't really get summers, so why is everyone buying summer tyres?

All-season tyres might be the middle ground that actually suit Irish driving conditions. One key point is that they generally perform much better than the average summer tyre in the wet - and we certainly get a lot of that. And on the few occasions we get ice and snow, they should be less useless than summers. I just bought some last week so not jumping to any conclusions yet, but I will see how they go.

20-08-2019 01:51PM

And once again I've read the last hundred posts wondering what "dear" and "budget" tyres actually means.

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 01:51PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If a safety critical part weren't safe, then it wouldn't be on sale.

Of course, safety critical is rated for normal driving. They don't cater for those who want to drive unsafely. Quite reasonably.
So anyone actually noticing a difference in tyre performance in the real world, is driving unsafely.

That's untrue.
Having to brake in the wet on a bend happens, as does aquaplaning, yet they don't seem to be tested.

bennya · 20-08-2019 01:56PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Of course, safety critical is rated for normal driving. They don't cater for those who want to drive unsafely. Quite reasonably.
So anyone actually noticing a difference in tyre performance in the real world, is driving unsafely.

Did you even read my post?

CJhaughey · 20-08-2019 01:57PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If a safety critical part weren't safe, then it wouldn't be on sale.

Of course, safety critical is rated for normal driving. They don't cater for those who want to drive unsafely. Quite reasonably.
So anyone actually noticing a difference in tyre performance in the real world, is driving unsafely.

So a tyre that aquaplanes more easily than another tyre but has an A rating for wet grip is safe?

An A rated tyre that lets go in a wet corner with no warning is safe?

A Tyre that is shocking in the dry but has an A rating for wet grip is safe?

You have seen the videos above demonstrating how poorly the budget tyres gripped in wet corners at even moderate speeds and you will still defend poor quality tyres?

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So anyone actually noticing a difference in tyre performance in the real world, is driving unsafely.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen on all the tyre threads I have seen on here and I have seen a few.
:rolleyes:

meeeeh · 20-08-2019 01:59PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

This whole nonsense of summer and winter tyres you'd be hearing about in recent years is nothing more than a wind up front the tyre sellers. Like, in an fairness now, who did you ever hear of who of changes their tyres coming into summer and into winter? I literally never heard of anyone doing that. If any of my family or friends heard I was doing that they'd think I had gone cracked wasting money.

Now, maybe if you were in Norway or Russia where they actually get proper winters it might be warranted. But here in Ireland we don't really get summers or winters. We just have a varying level of damp.

In any region with likelihood of snowfall people should and mostly do use winter tyres. It's makes a huge difference (I know from experience, there is always one stuck in the snow with wrong tyres and a line of cars trying to pass them).

I don't bother changing in Ireland because the temperatures are not low enough and except once or twice in 10 years there is not enough snowfall where we live. I would consider it if I lived somewhere in the mountains. One good thing about seasonal swapping of tyres was that people were advised if they need a new set. You can have best brand of tyres but if there is no thread left on them they will be just as dangerous as some Chinese rubbish. I notice people in Ireland are more reluctant to change tyres often enough (my parents have a garage and even after 13 years away I still look at thread depth on cars).

TheBoyConor · 20-08-2019 02:14PM

Interesting how there are never Chinese summer or winter tyres! Or are there?

Chinese tyres getting an awfull level of aduse here. Let's not forget that the likes of Kenda, Linglong etc product huge volumes of tyres and are amongst the largest tyre producers in the world. They make them for trucks and heavy machinery like dumpers too. Some of those are certainly not cheap and can cost thousands per tyre.

Incidentally, what do people think of Indian tyres?
Apollo are Indian and are the 7th largest tyre manufacturer in the world. I should think that they'd know what they are doing.

And another thing, how do you know that Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone tires or whatever are actually made in dedicated premium tire factories?
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to hear that Pirelli or Michelin or whatever premium brand are actually contracting out the manufacture of their fancy tires to the likes of Indian or Chinese manufacturers like Linglong or Triangle. It could be all an exercise in brand or badge engineering. Good ole "Designed in Germany, assembled in Bangladesh" type set up.

I wonder to premium car buyers mind that the steel used in making their premium performance car might have been produced in India or China. Would they turn their noses up at a BMW or AMG on the forecourt if they saw that the steel cage from Tata, an Indian company and one of the largest steel producers in the world, or the Chinese Baowu Steel Group, the 2nd largest steel producer globally?

At the end of the day, an awful lot of this comes down to good old fashioned racism. "Oh look, Chinese/Indian/Bangladeshi tyres!.... must be inferior to good ole British or American branded tyres" (because of the subconscious belief that said peoples or cultures are inferior to Western).
I

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 02:22PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Interesting how there are never Chinese summer or winter tyres! Or are there?

Chinese tyres getting an awfull level of aduse here. Let's not forget that the likes of Kenda, Linglong etc product huge volumes of tyres and are amongst the largest tyre producers in the world. They make them for trucks and heavy machinery like dumpers too. Some of those are certainly not cheap and can cost thousands per tyre.

Incidentally, what do people think of Indian tyres?
Apollo are Indian and are the 7th largest tyre manufacturer in the world. I should think that they'd know what they are doing.

And another thing, how do you know that Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone tires or whatever are actually made in dedicated premium tire factories?
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to hear that Pirelli or Michelin or whatever premium brand are actually contracting out the manufacture of their fancy tires to the likes of Indian or Chinese manufacturers like Linglong or Triangle. It could be all an exercise in brand or badge engineering. Good ole "Designed in Germany, assembled in Bangladesh" type set up.

I wonder to premium car buyers mind that the steel used in making their premium performance car might have been produced in India or China. Would they turn their noses up at a BMW or AMG on the forecourt if they saw that the steel cage from Tata, an Indian company and one of the largest steel producers in the world, or the Chinese Baowu Steel Group, the 2nd largest steel producer globally?

At the end of the day, an awful lot of this comes down to good old fashioned racism. "Oh look, Chinese/Indian/Bangladeshi tyres!.... must be inferior to good ole British or American branded tyres" (because of the subconscious belief that said peoples or cultures are inferior to Western).
I

How are you shoehorning racism into a tyre thread?

Cheap Chinese tyres are proven to be useless in most driving situations, generally down to how little grip they have/how hard the compound of the tyre is, giving it so little grip. Generally a cheap Chinese tyre will have a ****ty compound that gives it next to no grip, a lot are also poorly assembled. I've had a tyre peel the centre off like an orange skin.

There's a reason you won't see a set of Wanli's on a performance car.

CJhaughey · 20-08-2019 02:29PM

I don't generally have any preconceptions about the make of tyre, some premium manufacturers have made some pretty awful tyres not looking at Michelin Energy saver + in particular.
But in general you do get what you pay for, tyre R+D is not cheap but there are budget brands that have decent tyres as well, GT radial and Nexen have some decent tyres but its really up to people to do their own research and find out what works well on their wheel size and car.
The trouble is that tyres are not sexy like a spoiler or the latest car electronic phone connection, they are round and black and the good ones look exactly the same as the sh1t ones.

TheBoyConor · 20-08-2019 02:31PM

Well I've been driving on Chinese tyres for 15 years or so, often on salvaged wheels from scrap yards, and have never had a problem. But then I don't drive like a boyracer thinking he's vin diesel.

As I said above, are you so sure that your expensive Pirellis or Goodyears were not produced on an production line which was producing Wanlis or Bangladeshi Apollos the week before the Goodyear production run? Do your Bridgestone or designer Pirelli tires come with a manufacturer's declaration that they were produced in Great Britain or 'Muricuh?

zilog_jones · 20-08-2019 02:35PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And another thing, how do you know that Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone tires or whatever are actually made in dedicated premium tire factories?
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to hear that Pirelli or Michelin or whatever premium brand are actually contracting out the manufacture of their fancy tires to the likes of Indian or Chinese manufacturers like Linglong or Triangle. It could be all an exercise in brand or badge engineering. Good ole "Designed in Germany, assembled in Bangladesh" type set up.

They literally say the country of manufacture on the sidewall, it's not that hard :rolleyes: The e-mark with corresponding UNECE country code is also there (although that would be the country of type approval IIRC). I've never seen a premium tyre sold in Ireland that was made outside of the EU (maybe Turkey at a push), probably due to the extra costs of tariffs of imported tyres - costs which are offset by using lower quality materials regarding "budget" Chinese tyres.

It doesn't matter if they're made in the same factory as some lesser brand (e.g. Continental own Semperit, Barum, etc. so could easily share factories) - different tyres are going to use different tread patterns, different compound formulations, etc.

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 02:36PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well I've been driving on Chinese tyres for 15 years or so, often on salvaged wheels from scrap yards, and have never had a problem. But then I don't drive like a boyracer thinking he's vin diesel.

As I said above, are you so sure that your expensive Pirellis or Goodyears were not produced on an production line which was producing Wanlis or Bangladeshi Apollos the week before the Goodyear production run? Do your Bridgestone or designer Pirelli tires come with a manufacturer's declaration that they were produced in Great Britain or 'Muricuh?

Put the tar brush down there buddy, I've had skids at under 30mph on them. Hardly "boy racer" speeds.

They may well be made in China or the likes, they're still using better compounds than the usual Chinese brands, hence the price and performance difference.

GreeBo · 20-08-2019 02:53PM

bennya wrote: »

Try having a car pull an unexpected U-turn in front of you when you're metres away, and having to simultaneously hit the anchors hard and steer around the obstacle with very little room to spare.

Come back and tell me that tyres don't matter, and I'll show you a spot where decent tyres avoided a fatality that day.

Try leaving more of a gap, your underwear will thank you for it.
What speed were you driving at mere metres away from another car where you couldn't just stop?

20-08-2019 02:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And once again I've read the last hundred posts wondering what "dear" and "budget" tyres actually means.

Budget tyres are ones normally produced in China but some other Asian counties also. They will have silly names like landsail, hyfly, triangle etc rather than a recognizable name like good year, Bridgestone etc.

Now it should be noted that there are premium or midrange tyres manufacturers in Japan and South Korea also but they are well known brands like Yokohama and Hankook.

The price difference is not that large either. I paid 125 a tyre for good year eagle f1s recently one of the best tyres money can buy. I would probably have paid 70 to 80 per tyre for a budget tyre. Front tyres last me about 2 years so the difference is nothing over that time.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And another thing, how do you know that Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone tires or whatever are actually made in dedicated premium tire factories?
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to hear that Pirelli or Michelin or whatever premium brand are actually contracting out the manufacture of their fancy tires to the likes of Indian or Chinese manufacturers like Linglong or Triangle. It could be all an exercise in brand or badge engineering. Good ole "Designed in Germany, assembled in Bangladesh" type set up.

I wonder to premium car buyers mind that the steel used in making their premium performance car might have been produced in India or China. Would they turn their noses up at a BMW or AMG on the forecourt if they saw that the steel cage from Tata, an Indian company and one of the largest steel producers in the world, or the Chinese Baowu Steel Group, the 2nd largest steel producer globally?

At the end of the day, an awful lot of this comes down to good old fashioned racism. "Oh look, Chinese/Indian/Bangladeshi tyres!.... must be inferior to good ole British or American branded tyres" (because of the subconscious belief that said peoples or cultures are inferior to Western).
I

My Goodyear’s are made in Germany and Poland (slightly newer model tyres on the front than the back so obviously just made in a different factory).

That’s beside the point though, even if they were made in China that makes little difference. They would be made to Goodyear’s standards using their compounds and meeting their standards.

In the same way my iPhone is made in China but using apples processes, quality standards, design etc which is incomparable to some piece of crap Chinese phone that cost 150 euro.

meeeeh · 20-08-2019 02:54PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well I've been driving on Chinese tyres for 15 years or so, often on salvaged wheels from scrap yards, and have never had a problem. But then I don't drive like a boyracer thinking he's vin diesel.

As I said above, are you so sure that your expensive Pirellis or Goodyears were not produced on an production line which was producing Wanlis or Bangladeshi Apollos the week before the Goodyear production run? Do your Bridgestone or designer Pirelli tires come with a manufacturer's declaration that they were produced in Great Britain or 'Muricuh?

It's not where they are produced, it's what rubber is used, quality control, thread and so on. I'm not saying all Chinese tyres are bad, after all I have no connection to this type of business for well over 10 years but I don't know of anyone who worked for us and thought all tyres were equal. As by the by Michelin also own Kormoran and their sales rep was telling us they got unusually high amount of defects on tyres. They checked the production date and they were all produced in December. As for where tyres are made it depends. Sava factory was bought by Goodyear and Goodyear and I think Fulda were produced there and Sava production was moved to cheaper countries. I'm sure Chinese and Indian people are just as capable as anyone else but there will be less money spent on quality control and materials for cheaper brands.

Personally I go for decent brand, not because I need to race but because I prefer decent grip when you need it and we all need it sometimes. There will be less of a likelihood of other defects too.

Tazzimus · 20-08-2019 03:06PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Try leaving more of a gap, your underwear will thank you for it.
What speed were you driving at mere metres away from another car where you couldn't just stop?

It could have been a car doing a u turn from the other side of the road.
You can't fully anticipate the stupidity of other drivers. Good tyres, reflexes, and knowing how your car reacts to sudden direction and momentum changes help though. Certainly helped me avoid several crashes over the years *touches wood*

tossy · 20-08-2019 03:07PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Chinese tyres getting an awfull level of aduse here. Let's not forget that the likes of Kenda, Linglong etc product huge volumes of tyres and are amongst the largest tyre producers in the world. They make them for trucks and heavy machinery like dumpers too. Some of those are certainly not cheap and can cost thousands per tyre.

Incidentally, what do people think of Indian tyres?
Apollo are Indian and are the 7th largest tyre manufacturer in the world. I should think that they'd know what they are doing.

Do you think these companies are big producers of tyres because they are good or because of the number of people in the market they cater for ?

Lego are the biggest producer of tyres in the world but i wouldn't rate them, although they probably make better tyres than linglong.

bennya · 20-08-2019 03:11PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Try leaving more of a gap, your underwear will thank you for it.
What speed were you driving at mere metres away from another car where you couldn't just stop?

65 km/h, and the car pulled a sudden u-turn while still indicating left. Try predicting that from your high horse.

20-08-2019 03:15PM

Luella Harsh Sideline wrote: »

Budget tyres are ones normally produced in China but some other Asian counties also. They will have silly names like landsail, hyfly, triangle etc rather than a recognizable name like good year, Bridgestone etc.

Now it should be noted that there are premium or midrange tyres manufacturers in Japan and South Korea also but they are well known brands like Yokohama and Hankook.

The price difference is not that large either. I paid 125 a tyre for good year eagle f1s recently one of the best tyres money can buy. I would probably have paid 70 to 80 per tyre for a budget tyre. Front tyres last me about 2 years so the difference is nothing over that time..

"Budget" as in Chinese? I pay under 70 each for Toyos, 70 to 80 budgets seems a bit much.

wonski · 20-08-2019 03:31PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Budget" as in Chinese? I pay under 70 each for Toyos, 70 to 80 budgets seems a bit much.

Some sizes are expensive.

I paid 125 per corner for Falkens, that are rather middle shelf option..

Chinese would be 75 and no name provided by the fitter.

While some Chinese budget tires might be OK, interesting point was raised about quality standards. That's where the difference is.

Large companies with history and a brand to protect don't spare money on that aspect while all these random names manufactured there have nothing to protect apart from the profit.

Both premium and budget tires cost roughly the same to manufacture, its the R&D, QA, QC where they are excelling after years of being on the market. Very demanding market including racing etc.

Some budget brands will join them and move up the ladder, some will just change the name of the tire and try again.

I had rear wheels loosing traction in 1.4 Scenic on a roundabout years ago. Some ****ty budget tires undriveable. I wasn't boy racing them

Had some Chinese made strange name tires that were just fine, too.

But they are inconsistent in what they manufacture.

Chinese tyres. I am glad ......

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