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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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  • #692
    ToBeFrank123
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The money was never about increasing the number of adult registered players.

    The money was all about increasing juvenile participation with the twin aims of raising awareness of our national game and improving long-term health and fitness outcomes. It is succeeding very well in those objectives as seen by the huge number of kids in Dublin now playing the games. If you preferred, the government could have put money into promoting soccer and rugby in Dublin, but instead it chose our national games for this important initiative. This is not something to be taken lightly. For all your rage about money and Dublin, the real danger to gaelic games is that the government decide to put money into Niall Quinn's ideas for academies for young soccer players attached to LOI clubs. That would be catastrophic for the GAA. We have already seen the effect of the tax breaks for professional rugby players.

    Going back to Dublin, the fact, which you so clearly acknowledge, that the investment in juvenile participation is not resulting in increased numbers of adult registered players only supports the argument that the money isn't aimed at the senior team and isn't the reason for the success of the Dublin team.

    It is good that you are beginning to see that this isn't a simple case of money = success.

    A bit busy with work so will respond in detail later. in summary, of course senior players and u20 players are benefitting from GDOs and do so throughout their entire career.

    Clubs in Dublin are run on a professional basis at this stage, with the help of the paid GDOs.

    Clubs in rural areas do not have these financial resources and are run on an amateur basis.


  • #693
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    ToBeFrank123 wrote: »
    More immature jibes and insults. I gave you the benefit of the doubt a number of times but won't be any more.

    Say hello to ignore.

    Dammit. How ever will we get through to you now?

    salmocab wrote: »
    That’s it your on ignore now, making his world slightly more of an echo chamber.

    I can't decide just yet if this is a success or failure on my part.

    I do enjoy that he got so wound up and resorted to that. That's him and Gachla taken out by their own bias and bullshít.

    I guess my work here is done.


  • #694
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    ToBeFrank123 wrote: »
    A bit busy with work so will respond in detail later. in summary, of course senior players and u20 players are benefitting from GDOs and do so throughout their entire career.

    Clubs in Dublin are run on a professional basis at this stage, with the help of the paid GDOs.

    Clubs in rural areas do not have these financial resources and are run on an amateur basis.

    Given the amazing amount of posts this guy has put out there on this subject this is as ludicrous as they come.

    Blanch, godspeed to you!

    I'm out!


  • #695
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    ToBeFrank123 wrote: »
    A bit busy with work so will respond in detail later. in summary, of course senior players and u20 players are benefitting from GDOs and do so throughout their entire career.

    Clubs in Dublin are run on a professional basis at this stage, with the help of the paid GDOs.

    Clubs in rural areas do not have these financial resources and are run on an amateur basis.

    Again with your vast knowledge of Dublin GAA could you please give examples of how clubs are run on such a professional level?


  • #696
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Humble????

    Humble????

    Are you for real?

    Dublin have crazy and mad advantages over every other county.

    Inherent advantages in terms of population and facilities as it is the capital city.

    then to add petrol to the fire HUGE financial advantages

    Yet He personally and the Dublin set up revel in it.

    What’s humble about that?

    The rest of the country is jumping up and down screaming for the inequality to be addressed and we supposed to respect a supposedly humble and polite man?

    Get real. Again, you and your like are fooling nobody.

    I mean, that's practically transparent!


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  • #697
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Have only come across Dublin players doing charity gigs for no appearance fees. You may be right but I haven't seen it.

    Jim Gavin takes no money in mileage or expenses either.


  • #698
    D9Male
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭D9Male


    This post from me was (rightly) moved from the GAA changes thread, so I am reposting it here.

    Full disclosure: I am a Dub.

    First of all people talk about the GAA as if senior intercounty football is the be all and end all. It is not, it's about minor B football championship club games and Saturday morning nursery for U6 and a multitude of blitzes and tournaments organised at underage level.

    The primary objective of funding is to improve participation and quality at all levels. The senior intercounty team is just the tip of the arrow.

    There are hundreds of thousands of kids in Dublin, so I think it is appropriate that a lot of the funding goes there.

    Next thing on the Dubs. For me, the main reason they're so dominant is playing population. Croke Park home games, good coaching, golden generation, etc. are all factors but they pale into insignificance against the sheer weight of numbers at Dublin. I coach at U12 and U10 level in Dublin, and looking at all the top U12 teams in Division 1, they're all clubs with big numbers. I think this holds true generally.

    The game is remarkably healthy. On Sunday I will be up in Armagh at an U12 blitz with almost 500 kids from 28 clubs from 9 counties in attendance. Next month I will be at a similar event for U10 in Westmeath. These things are absolutely brilliant and are important for the mental and physical health of our country. Not just the GAA, but the IRFU, FAI and other bodies are really important in getting kids off the couch and onto a pitch. So let's not forget all this positivity when we talk of the doom and gloom on Dublin winning lots of All Irelands.

    And what about changes to intercounty? When the GAA was established, Dublin was not the most populated county (it was Cork). Now it is over twice the size of the next most populated county (Antrim). In my opinion, intercounty football won't be competitive with the existing structure. Personally I think we need to either amalgamate counties, split Dublin or a combination of both. But I hate both solutions. I kind of think it is unsolvable while Dubiln has such an advantage in playing numbers.


  • #699
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,189 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    We are in the endgame of the amateur inter county structure.
    Without the funding Dublin were likely to dominate this decade. It’s just demographics mainly and a couple of other advantages and factors around economies of scale in the current quasi professional era.
    The richest and most populated countries always win the most medals at the Olympics. This is the same except this is the USA competing in every Olympics in their own country against only countries with a tenth of their size in population
    Dublin have a superb team that are breaking new ground in the bar of performance any team has ever reached before. Dubs should enjoy it but also show more humility.

    You might be right about the endgame... but Dublin doesn't compete against only counties with a tenth of their population; and on the figures of registered players it's a lot closer.

    Plus, even in 1996 the USA topped the medal table but only won 44/271 gold medals and 61 silvers. So they were beaten as many times as they won.

    Dublin's population is increasing, but look at West Germany versus United Germany performance at sports. Population increased by 25%. Number of gold medals at summer Olympics is about the same, win a soccer world cup once every 20 years. I think Dublin at 1 million or Dublin at 1.5 million is secondary to how many are actually playing, and I think above a certain point there's diminishing returns to population numbers versus on field. You could field a strong second and third teams, but it's crowded out.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #700
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    kilns wrote: »
    Again with your vast knowledge of Dublin GAA could you please give examples of how clubs are run on such a professional level?

    I think in his terms 'professional' means run properly?
    Code for 'run well' = professional
    As opposed to the 'd'unbelievable' stereotypical rural county/club boards where it is based on nepotism, and who you know.
    Not the level of expertise of an individual.
    It is no wonder that many other counties have regressed - but of course that question is never asked.

    How did Meath f**k up so badly they won Sam in 99 and only now after over a decade they are back in division 1.
    Who is to blame for that dramatic fall?

    Galway the same Corofin flying internal politics mean that they are not integrated into the County set up.
    Who is to blame for that Dublin?

    Tyrone - Micky Harte cannot think of any way to play except one way - other teams are passing them by - no variation in thier play - McShane is thier outball - that is it.
    Is that Dublin's fault as well?

    Cork - had a fantastic team in 2010 - internal politics and made a balls of it - they should have dominated the decade.
    They had giants of men all over the panel and let the whole thing collapse - unbelievable, really.
    The biggest f**k up of them all.
    What happened?
    Dublin's fault?
    Now Cork are only to start to fix from a really low base again - so it looks more impressive

    None of this is spoken about at all it is like the brightest kid in the class has to read at remedial level, to let the other kids catch up?
    That seems to be what some people want to do - destroy Dublin.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #701
    Happyilylost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭Happyilylost


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Have only come across Dublin players doing charity gigs for no appearance fees. You may be right but I haven't seen it.

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-football-stars-commanding-hefty-fees-for-promotional-appearances-38193584.html


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  • #702
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    D9Male wrote: »
    This post from me was (rightly) moved from the GAA changes thread, so I am reposting it here.

    I think your post is accurate.

    I think the funding issue has an effect but it is a small factor in explaining Dublin’s dominance.

    The funding was largely a financial decision not a player development one. All those kids getting coaching; their parents pay memberships for the kids. This brings in money to clubs that dwarves the salaries paid to GDOs.

    I think this point is completely missed when talking about the sums paid in grants to Dublin.


  • #703
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,966 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Happyilylost wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-football-stars-commanding-hefty-fees-for-promotional-appearances-38193584.html

    Fair enough, but as I said, I have only met them at numerous charity events where they were appearing for no fee.

    If a few companies want to pay them for their time, that is no different to the way that jobs are given to county players around the country all the time, and have been for decades.


  • #704
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,247 ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I think your post is accurate.

    I think the funding issue has an effect but it is a small factor in explaining Dublin’s dominance.

    The funding was largely a financial decision not a player development one. All those kids getting coaching; their parents pay memberships for the kids. This brings in money to clubs that dwarves the salaries paid to GDOs.

    I think this point is completely missed when talking about the sums paid in grants to Dublin.

    I picked one random club in Dublin - adult membership is €180 per year, family membership, one adult with three kids playing is €450 per year.

    Forget grants - that’s where Dublin clubs are making their momey


  • #705
    grbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 693 ✭✭✭grbear


    I've said it before on here but the time to start addressing the level of funding Dublin receive was when they signed their first big deal with AIG. If the GAA started to correct course after that deal then it'd be near impossible for the current level of vitriol to be generated. Instead we are seemingly locked on a path where we are going to get a reactionary policy designed to placate those who have shouted loudest about the funding issue instead of one designed to help the development of the GAA.


    Personally I think Dublin are one of a number of counties who should be receiving much less than the national average purely because they should be able to generate so much commercial revenue due to the size of their fanbase and also the amount of large businesses in their county. It's something Dublin are already making great progress on thanks to Tomas Quinn's appointment and I believe is something other counties should be replicating.

    Late this year, maybe early next, I think central council/Croke Park should go to the counties a tier down from Dublin, basically Cork, Limerick, Galway and maybe a few more and tell them that they will be given funding to employ a commercial manager like Tomas Quinn until 2025. The flipside of that is that their games development funding will be cut from 2021 onwards. That'll eventually free up a lot of money which can de diverted either to increasing the development funding in other counties or spending on infrastructure like the new stadium projects in Meath, Kildare, Antrim, Louth, Waterford etc.


  • #706
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Happyilylost wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-football-stars-commanding-hefty-fees-for-promotional-appearances-38193584.html

    Martin Breheny is always so upbeat in his articles what breath a breath of fresh air the man is. :rolleyes:
    Plus from the tone of the article it is based on ONE Dublin representative of ONE player.
    The headline then magically was titled 'Dublin players'
    Brehany is the same fella who said that the fans were cheated in the Tyrone v Dublin game.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110884557


    I enjoyed it faces of smiling fans in his own article!
    It was jammed - all around me enjoyed it Tyrone and Dublin fans.

    Breheny NEVER has anything positive to say about anything - maybe that is how he gets his kicks Or ignores that big ulcer he has.
    The guy does not have much credibility as a journalist given his track record imo.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #707
    Dots1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    I picked one random club in Dublin - adult membership is €180 per year, family membership, one adult with three kids playing is €450 per year.

    Forget grants - that’s where Dublin clubs are making their momey

    I also crunched numbers on the Glasnevin superclub Na Fianna. There are 400 nursery members 5-7 year old and their membership fee is 95 euro a kid. The total taken in from these little kids wouldnt be far off covering the salary of a GDO in itself.

    The problem is that some think if this funding is transferred to rural areas that it will magically close the gap. It won’t.


  • #708
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    grbear wrote: »
    I've said it before on here but the time to start addressing the level of funding Dublin receive was when they signed their first big deal with AIG. If the GAA started to correct course after that deal then it'd be near impossible for the current level of vitriol to be generated. Instead we are seemingly locked on a path where we are going to get a reactionary policy designed to placate those who have shouted loudest about the funding issue instead of one designed to help the development of the GAA.


    Personally I think Dublin are one of a number of counties who should be receiving much less than the national average purely because they should be able to generate so much commercial revenue due to the size of their fanbase and also the amount of large businesses in their county. It's something Dublin are already making great progress on thanks to Tomas Quinn's appointment and I believe is something other counties should be replicating.

    Late this year, maybe early next, I think central council/Croke Park should go to the counties a tier down from Dublin, basically Cork, Limerick, Galway and maybe a few more and tell them that they will be given funding to employ a commercial manager like Tomas Quinn until 2025. The flipside of that is that their games development funding will be cut from 2021 onwards. That'll eventually free up a lot of money which can de diverted either to increasing the development funding in other counties or spending on infrastructure like the new stadium projects in Meath, Kildare, Antrim, Louth, Waterford etc.

    And yet - Dublin are actually being underfunded according to industry analysts

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/analyst-claims-dubs-actually-being-underfunded-939277.html

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #709
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,247 ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Fair enough, but as I said, I have only met them at numerous charity events where they were appearing for no fee.

    If a few companies want to pay them for their time, that is no different to the way that jobs are given to county players around the country all the time, and have been for decades.

    The article very specifically states for promotional appearances for companies - as you have said it’s very different to appearing for charities etc which I’ve heard of they do many for nothing and actually don’t need to be asked and go and offer their services and their profile to certain charity events. The Dublin board have used their jersey to promote different charities at times - cancer charity and the 20x20 initiative.

    It’s a form of sponsorship and endorsement for the company products - fair play if companies will pay them!


  • #710
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,247 ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    I also crunched numbers on the Glasnevin superclub Na Fianna. There are 400 nursery members 5-7 year old and their membership fee is 95 euro a kid. The total taken in from these little kids wouldnt be far off covering the salary of a GDO in itself.

    The problem is that some think if this funding is transferred to rural areas that it will magically close the gap. It won’t.

    That last line - 100% agree.


  • #711
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    I picked one random club in Dublin - adult membership is €180 per year, family membership, one adult with three kids playing is €450 per year.

    Forget grants - that’s where Dublin clubs are making their momey

    “Making their money”? You seem to be implying that Dublin clubs are profit oriented


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  • #712
    rebel girl 15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,247 ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    kilns wrote: »
    “Making their money”? You seem to be implying that Dublin clubs are profit oriented

    Poor choice of words on my part - what I meant is that is where clubs are getting their funding, from their members as opposed to being dependant on grants


  • #713
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    And yet - Dublin are actually being underfunded according to industry analysts

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/analyst-claims-dubs-actually-being-underfunded-939277.html

    A Dublin supporter on a Dublin podcast used one metric against one county to make this ludicrous argument.

    The figures have been posted repeatedly, Dublin get almost thirteen times what Cork get, when the population difference is two and a half times. There has been no justification for such financial disparity put forward.


  • #714
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,805 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    rebel girl 15 wrote: »
    I picked one random club in Dublin - adult membership is €180 per year, family membership, one adult with three kids playing is €450 per year.

    Forget grants - that’s where Dublin clubs are making their momey

    We have a situation where the richest clubs are receiving the most money and support from the GAA. How can that be fair?


  • #715
    kilns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    We have a situation where the richest clubs are receiving the most money and support from the GAA. How can that be fair?

    You cannot just take it as simply as that really however, take for example a club like Kilmacud who are huge and a 100 member rural club. The costs to obviously run each club would be vastly different for various reasons

    It would be like saying why does Germany who are much richer than Ireland, get more funding from the EU, its not fair


  • #716
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,966 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    A Dublin supporter on a Dublin podcast used one metric against one county to make this ludicrous argument.

    The figures have been posted repeatedly, Dublin get almost thirteen times what Cork get, when the population difference is two and a half times. There has been no justification for such financial disparity put forward.

    Cork have suffered on game development funding because Central Council has been forced to bail out Pairc Ui Chaoimh. If they hadn't made such a mess of that ground redevelopment, they would have had a better chance of getting more GDO funding. Like it or not, there is a real perception that Cork are particularly bad at financial management.


  • #717
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    A Dublin supporter on a Dublin podcast used one metric against one county to make this ludicrous argument.

    The figures have been posted repeatedly, Dublin get almost thirteen times what Cork get, when the population difference is two and a half times. There has been no justification for such financial disparity put forward.

    What about number of clubs etc etc.
    The naysayers seem to do an awful lot of cherry picking.
    Nothing is all laid out.
    How all the money is spent - different economies of scale etc.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #718
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Cork have suffered on game development funding because Central Council has been forced to bail out Pairc Ui Chaoimh. If they hadn't made such a mess of that ground redevelopment, they would have had a better chance of getting more GDO funding. Like it or not, there is a real perception that Cork are particularly bad at financial management.

    I don't even think its perception. They are bad at managing funding.

    I actually would like RebelGirl's insight here on things like that. I was badgering Frank about Corks and Galway for the last few days, but she'd definitely know more about them down South.
    @RG, is there any change going on wrt funding in Cork since the GAA stepped in on Páirc de Frank?


  • #719
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Cork have suffered on game development funding because Central Council has been forced to bail out Pairc Ui Chaoimh. If they hadn't made such a mess of that ground redevelopment, they would have had a better chance of getting more GDO funding. Like it or not, there is a real perception that Cork are particularly bad at financial management.

    How did that make an impact from figures from 2007-2018??

    Also that would sound like an incredibly small minded decision. Your country board screwed up so we’re going to punish kids in the county.


  • #720
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    We have a situation where the richest clubs are receiving the most money and support from the GAA. How can that be fair?

    But look at the numbers of players they have do you think this money is spent drinking at the bar or something?
    Cost of facilities and cost of living in Dublin etc
    None of this seems to be remembered - in the look at all the money dublin/dublin clubs are getting.'

    When the question really should be HOW are they spending thier money what are thier structures.
    Also WHAT can other clubs learn from Dublin clubs - can it be copied on a smaller scale?
    Other counties should be learning from the best in the country and sending thier reps down there to learn how to operate, plan and structure to get the maximum benefit out of what you got.

    Also Mullinaughta and Rathnew have beaten Kilmacud Crokes and Vinnies respectively.
    St Brigids from Roscommon beat Ballymun.
    Corofin are the top club in the country.

    Maybe you could argue Dublin clubs are not getting enough money
    - since if funding was the sole answer for success they would be winning the all-ireland club every year?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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  • #721
    ToBeFrank123
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    The deflection from Dublin Posters is laughable. Pairc Ui Chaoimh issues rared their head lately as in last couple of years and after Dublin were exposed for financial doping.

    That it should be used as a reason not to give increased gdf funds to every other county outside Dublin is pathetic and a new low in the debate.

    Greed and nothing else is Dublins problem. They have super-rich clubs yet also want the lions share of gdf funds.

    Dubs have no interest in fairness when it comes to funding, never had and never will. And since the GAA have buried their heads in the same sandpit as Dublin, nothing will change.

    The GAA couldn't run a corner shop and if they did they'd run it into the ground like they did with gaelic football.

    Thank god they haven't been able to destroy hurley. But give it a few years.


This discussion has been closed.
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