The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

kilns

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the kids in schools receiving coaching from GDOs are not members of any club. How does counting the number of kids in clubs be the best measure of the money spent?

If the GAA were to go with that logic we should dramatically cut the Games development funding the counties like Wicklow, Carlow, Derry and Leitrim get as per head of registered player the funds they received are very high

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the kids in schools receiving coaching from GDOs are not members of any club. How does counting the number of kids in clubs be the best measure of the money spent?

The measure of success should be the increased participation levels within club numbers. There are thousands of kids in Dublin who have never had a club GDO train them at their school. The GAA give the money to the clubs for the benefit of their members. The GDO then is part of an overall club scheme to increase participation. But ultimately, it must come back to increased numbers coming into the club.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

In a purely hypothetical world, if every county in Leinster each received €2M, about 5 or 6 years from now when the fruits of that money started to come through, Leinster would become a competitive province. Although, Leinster counties would still be 10 years behind in development terms.

A hypothetical world is one that doesn't exist.

There is no version of the world that would make Kilkenny or Wicklow competitive with €2m a year in funding five or six years from now. Even ten years wouldn't be enough.

The agenda of some is clear - get Dublin so that more of the second-ranked teams - Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Kildare, Meath - can win more provincial and All-Ireland titles. Blatant self-interest rather than the best for the game are behind most of the whinging.

I have said it repeatedly, if you want a level competitive field splitting Kerry as well as Dublin must be on the agenda, and compulsory amalgamations must also be on the table.

kilns

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fair enough. Not sure if you have read the whole thread or not and things are getting more than a little repetitive at this stage.

Dublin certainly have the best players. I certainly haven’t said money is the reason for that but rather that funding is a substantial factor.

Just out of interest, do you think Dublin men’s and women footballers enjoying their best decade in history, Dublin hurlers and hurling clubs massively improved, juvenile success increased, fifteen to twenty years after a massive increase in funding is coincidental and entirely unrelated to that funding?

I dont think anyone would deny it has had a factor and it is also not coincidence that during the same time Dublin took major steps to improve their organisation and structures and then were blessed to inherit guys like Jim Gavin who has facilitated the current group

Happyilylost

blanch152 wrote: »

Most of the kids in schools receiving coaching from GDOs are not members of any club. How does counting the number of kids in clubs be the best measure of the money spent?

I haven't mentioned funding in any of my posts. I have an issue with Dublin using Croke Park. It's only something tiny in the general scheme of things debated on this thread. But it does grate me. For an insight of things I will say one thing on schools and GDO's. A GDO visited my nephew's primary school twice this school year. Both for one hour sessions with boys from four classes before moving onto another school. I'll admit I envious when I saw the article about the Dublin GDO's speaking about how much easier it was when instead of visiting 20 schools it was down to two or three. I can imagine the difference would be massive.

kilns

bruschi wrote: »

The measure of success should be the increased participation levels within club numbers. There are thousands of kids in Dublin who have never had a club GDO train them at their school. The GAA give the money to the clubs for the benefit of their members. The GDO then is part of an overall club scheme to increase participation. But ultimately, it must come back to increased numbers coming into the club.

Again that makes no sense, GDOs therefore are only there to maintain numbers not increase them

Do you have evidence that thousands of kids have never been coached by GDOs? Nearly every club I know in my part of Dublin has their GDOs going into every school in their area on a very regular basis

jmayo

I think as things stand and are going the intercounty football scene in particular is doomed.

Even if you remove the disparity in development funding received from either state handouts or GAA, Dublin still have the ability to raise huge amounts from sponsorship at both county level and individual club level.

There is much bigger target audience for prospective sponsors, there is far more companies and organisations operating in the Dublin area that would be willing to back local clubs and even the county.

There is no getting away from that.

And money is damn important no matter how some around here are trying to pedal shyte about how unique the dedication of unpaid coaches and club members are in Dublin.

And then there are the sheer numbers.
Dublin has the greatest participation so on paper has greatest chance of developing better players and most especially since they have put the coaching and developmental systems in place to harness that potential.

And even if you remove all of those above advantages, Dublin at adult (post minor) levels will always have the advantage of having their players in a small geographical area close to top class facilities.
AFAIK none of the Dublin inter-county players in either hurling or football (going on stats from last couple of years) are working, studying or living outside the county.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on one or two.

And the idea of splitting Dublin I think would invariably eventually mean "Dublin whatever" versus "Dublin whateverelse" would end up a final or semifinal pairing in football.

BonnieSituation

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Well actually people can do both - give out in person to county officers and generally discuss online. I know, I have done both.

We also know for a fact that the average per match attendances are falling. People are voting with their feet as well.

True. But the poster in question readily admitted that he couldn't be bothered. So the criticism was warranted.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

How do the number of kids have no bearing on a scheme to increase juvenile participation?

We are back in Aslan territory now with bizarre arguments.

Really simple. You start off with a large number of kids, hundreds of thousands. You invest tens of millions over the course of almost 20 years.
At the end you're left with a grand total of 39,000 registered players.

The increasing participation argument doesn't hold water. The retention rate is weaker in Dublin than probably anywhere else, despite all the money thrown at the problem.

Registered players has increased in Dublin, but not enough to justify the tens of millions thrown at the issue.

At the same time, Dublin GAA has seen a huge increase in success among its elite teams.

Anyone would think that's where the serious money is being spent and had the most return

kilns

jmayo wrote: »

I think as things stand and are going the intercounty football scene in particular is doomed.

Even if you remove the disparity in development funding received from either state handouts or GAA, Dublin still have the ability to raise huge amounts from sponsorship at both county level and individual club level.

There is much bigger target audience for prospective sponsors, there is far more companies and organisations operating in the Dublin area that would be willing to back local clubs and even the county.

There is no getting away from that.

And money is damn important no matter how some around here are trying to pedal shyte about how unique the dedication of unpaid coaches and club members are in Dublin.

And then there are the sheer numbers.
Dublin has the greatest participation so on paper has greatest chance of developing better players and most especially since they have put the coaching and developmental systems in place to harness that potential.

And even if you remove all of those above advantages, Dublin at adult (post minor) levels will always have the advantage of having their players in a small geographical area close to top class facilities.
AFAIK none of the Dublin inter-county players in either hurling or football (going on stats from last couple of years) are working, studying or living outside the county.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on one or two.

And the idea of splitting Dublin I think would invariably eventually mean "Dublin whatever" versus "Dublin whateverelse" would end up a final or semifinal pairing in football.

Dublin have always had population, geographical, employment and revenue advantages. Why were they not an issue for some from 1995 to 2011?

partyguinness

blanch152 wrote: »

I have said it repeatedly, if you want a level competitive field splitting Kerry as well as Dublin must be on the agenda, and compulsory amalgamations must also be on the table.

Whatever about Dublin with its massive population, Kerry is certainly not in the same league. Kerry still has a relatively small pool of players and population but it is concentrated without the same competition from other sports. This is partly because it is a spread out rural county with little or no competition from other sports. It's all they play down there. Ok I know they have other team sports but there is no soccer or rugby team worth talking about on a national level. No private fee paying rugby schools. No hurling schools.

Similar to Kilkenny in the hurling- would anyone seriously suggest splitting up Kilkenny? No.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Really simple. You start off with a large number of kids, hundreds of thousands. You invest tens of millions over the course of almost 20 years.
At the end you're left with a grand total of 39,000 registered players.

The increasing participation argument doesn't hold water. The retention rate is weaker in Dublin than probably anywhere else, despite all the money thrown at the problem.

Registered players has increased in Dublin, but not enough to justify the tens of millions thrown at the issue.

At the same time, Dublin GAA has seen a huge increase in success among its elite teams.

Anyone would think that's where the serious money is being spent and had the most return

This is the basis of his argument, he is in a fantasy land thinking millions gets pumped into the senior teams and diverted away from coaching

odyssey06

And even if you remove all of those above advantages, Dublin at adult (post minor) levels will always have the advantage of having their players in a small geographical area close to top class facilities.
AFAIK none of the Dublin inter-county players in either hurling or football (going on stats from last couple of years) are working, studying or living outside the county. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on one or two.

Suprised they could get these stats but here you go...
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/on-the-road-again-gaa-players-going-the-distance-for-their-counties-1.3361869

Keano

jmayo wrote: »

I think as things stand and are going the intercounty football scene in particular is doomed.

Even if you remove the disparity in development funding received from either state handouts or GAA, Dublin still have the ability to raise huge amounts from sponsorship at both county level and individual club level.

There is much bigger target audience for prospective sponsors, there is far more companies and organisations operating in the Dublin area that would be willing to back local clubs and even the county.

There is no getting away from that.

And money is damn important no matter how some around here are trying to pedal shyte about how unique the dedication of unpaid coaches and club members are in Dublin.

And then there are the sheer numbers.
Dublin has the greatest participation so on paper has greatest chance of developing better players and most especially since they have put the coaching and developmental systems in place to harness that potential.

And even if you remove all of those above advantages, Dublin at adult (post minor) levels will always have the advantage of having their players in a small geographical area close to top class facilities.
AFAIK none of the Dublin inter-county players in either hurling or football (going on stats from last couple of years) are working, studying or living outside the county.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on one or two.

And the idea of splitting Dublin I think would invariably eventually mean "Dublin whatever" versus "Dublin whateverelse" would end up a final or semifinal pairing in football.

I watched Dublin U20s get ran over by a very good Cork team in the final. The conveyor belt hits bumps along the road. In hurling Clare and Limerick both won 3 U21 All Ireland finals in a row - both counties have 2 titles combined in the last 20 years.

jmayo

kilns wrote: »

Dublin have always had population, geographical, employment and revenue advantages. Why were they not an issue for some from 1995 to 2011?

Ehh money and organisation.

How many times does this have to spelt out ?

The problem for everyone else and indeed the longterm viability of competitive championships (football in particular) is Dublin have had both in abundance since early 2000s.

And yes I am saying you do need both to succeed unlike some of your colleagues and indeed some of your detractors who think one explains it all.

partyguinness

kilns wrote: »

Dublin have always had population, geographical, employment and revenue advantages. Why were they not an issue for some from 1995 to 2011?

Lack of concentration. Other counties were more committed. Sometimes you can be too big with too many options. If you have limited pool of players it is easier to focus and work on that.

Easier to win a battle with 200 full time committed soldiers than 2000 half arsed collections of average players.

In GAA football is not all that difficult to bring a team up to a decent standard.

Mick O'Dwyer did it with several small counties. Paudie O'Shea did it. Ok- they didnt win any AI but within a very short space of time, with panel of committed players and a manager that knows his ****- you can go along way in football.

kilns

odyssey06 wrote: »

Suprised they could get these stats but here you go...
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/on-the-road-again-gaa-players-going-the-distance-for-their-counties-1.3361869

Interesting, however 25 Monaghan players working in Dublin though? That cant be right? Maybe the Mayo people here can confirm if 18 Mayo players work in Dublin?

Gachla

Bridge93 wrote: »

Is the 'split dublin, their population is too big' argument dead now so? The registered playing numbers have been posted a few times. Given the players in Dublin number not that much more than Cork presumably we can all agree splitting based on population is unnecessary now. Debate the funding by all means.

The Dubs are now all over the place. They claim we need to money because of our population one second and then the next they claim we shouldn't be split because we don't have the population playing GAA!

jmayo

Keano wrote: »

I watched Dublin U20s get ran over by a very good Cork team in the final. The conveyor belt hits bumps along the road. In hurling Clare and Limerick both won 3 U21 All Ireland finals in a row - both counties have 2 titles combined in the last 20 years.

And yet you forgot to mention they won in 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017 and were runners up in 2002 as well as this year.

Before that their only appearances were as losers in finals in 75 and 80.

Funny how you are ignoring the bigger stats that highlight the fact that Dublin's performances have drastically improved.

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

The measure of success should be the increased participation levels within club numbers.

Why? Isn't increased awareness of the national games and better long-term health and activity levels sufficient?

Why does it have to lead to increased participation levels within clubs?

bruschi wrote: »

There are thousands of kids in Dublin who have never had a club GDO train them at their school.

What do you think GDOs do during the day when kids are at school?

https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/cfmp6cax48v7w6mxrp9t.pdf

"77% OF ALL SCHOOLS RECEIVED 8 OR MORE COACHING SESSIONS"

bruschi wrote: »

The GAA give the money to the clubs for the benefit of their members. The GDO then is part of an overall club scheme to increase participation. But ultimately, it must come back to increased numbers coming into the club.

The aim is the promotion of the games, that doesn't mean increasing club numbers.

This is an extract from the 2015 Games Development Report:

"Another example – albeit in very different circumstances – is the Special Inclusion Initiative that Dublin County Board run with St. Peter’s School, Rathgar.

St. Peter’s School is a Special School, which caters for up to 60 children and young people with special needs, serving a wide catchment area in South Dublin. The children and young people receive 4 hours per week of Gaelic Football coaching. The over-arching objective of the programme is to provide a safe and positive environment for the children to experience playing and being coached Gaelic games, ensuring that they can learn at their own pace. Within the planning of each coaching session, the programme coach attempts to align the objectives of the session closely with the moral values promoted by the school i.e. hospitality; compassion; respect; justice; excellence. The coach aims to deliver the coaching session by taking every child’s needs into consideration whatever their ability. Mindful of the school’s values, the coach sets objectives for technical and – in particular – social aspects, to be built into the planning and delivery of each session e.g. technical skill: catching; social skill: participation and teamwork."

Can you explain to me how the GDO working in St. Peter's School is somehow helping the Dublin Senior County Team?

D9Male

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Intercounty championship attendances would say otherwise, Dublin9male.

But that's my point. Intercounty championship attendances are not what the GAA is about. Your post made it seem like the GAA was on its last knees.

Gachla

Keano wrote: »

It was very simplistic alright but money isn't the reason behind everything. As a Clare man, who watched Kilkenny dominate hurling for a decade they didn't have bags of cash but still walked all over teams - they had the best players. I just believe this Dublin team have the best players, their time in the doldrums will come again.

Everyone is still ignoring the huge increase in titles across the board. It's not just the men's senior footballers! Also, GDO's who've worked in Dublin since this all began state that the difference in standards of players going into development squads then compared to now is like night and day. These are very experienced and highly respected GAA men, they know the difference the whole system has made. Why doubt them? Are people here claiming they know more than these fellas?

Keano

jmayo wrote: »

And yet you forgot to mention they won in 2010, 2012, 2014, 2017 and were runners up in 2002 as well as this year.

Before that their only appearances were as losers in finals in 75 and 80.

Funny how you are ignoring the bigger stats that highlight the fact that Dublin's performances have drastically improved.

Not forgetting that fact but your point was that the pick they have is massive and that is true. I'm saying it's all well and good having a big pick but sooner or later for whatever reason those coming through will not be at the level the senior team are now. Maybe because it's the age we live in now but Kerry were the football kings when I was small, do you think we would have the same conversation if it was them going for 5 in a row?

partyguinness

I think it is as simple as Dublin finally getting its **** together all across the board.

ClanofLams

Keano wrote: »

Not forgetting that fact but your point was that the pick they have is massive and that is true. I'm saying it's all well and good having a big pick but sooner or later for whatever reason those coming through will not be at the level the senior team are now. Maybe because it's the age we live in now but Kerry were the football kings when I was small, do you think we would have the same conversation if it was them going for 5 in a row?

Not sure if you missed this but thought I would ask again.


Just out of interest, do you think Dublin men’s and women footballers enjoying their best decade in history, Dublin hurlers and hurling clubs massively improved, juvenile success increased, fifteen to twenty years after a massive increase in funding is coincidental and entirely unrelated to that funding?

Gachla

kilns wrote: »

So if central funding is addressed (which is has and continues to be) and the "home venue" is sorted, how else would you suggested leveling the playing field considering that Dublin have always enjoyed the population, geographical advantages and revenue generating advantages which has not always translated into success

Solutions are welcome as any GAA person likes to see competition

Or could it be the fact that in the next 2/3 years Dublin will lose a big chunk of their squad which will naturally level the playing field

I asked this yesterday, why do you think 14 years of imbalanced funding should be ignored? For a few years, Dublin were getting 1.5 million plus while others were getting 7,000 euro. Yes, that's not a typo, 7,000. During this 14 years, everyone else was getting in and about the same. The gap between top and bottom wasn't much. Dublin were far, far ahead and out of line with the rest. A 14 year head start is a serious advantage, an irreversible one as the money continues to flow into Dublin GAA.
It can't be forgotten as well that the increase in sponsorship money for Dublin has come off the back of increased success. And it's not just the Dublin senior footballers.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Really simple. You start off with a large number of kids, hundreds of thousands. You invest tens of millions over the course of almost 20 years.
At the end you're left with a grand total of 39,000 registered players.

The increasing participation argument doesn't hold water. The retention rate is weaker in Dublin than probably anywhere else, despite all the money thrown at the problem.

Registered players has increased in Dublin, but not enough to justify the tens of millions thrown at the issue.

At the same time, Dublin GAA has seen a huge increase in success among its elite teams.

Anyone would think that's where the serious money is being spent and had the most return

The aim was never to increase the number of adult registered players, neither was it to improve the Dublin senior football team.

The aim was and is to increase awareness of the GAA, increase juvenile participation rates and to improve long-term health and physical activity outcomes. Those are the measures by which it should be judged.

blanch152

Gachla wrote: »

Everyone is still ignoring the huge increase in titles across the board. It's not just the men's senior footballers! Also, GDO's who've worked in Dublin since this all began state that the difference in standards of players going into development squads then compared to now is like night and day. These are very experienced and highly respected GAA men, they know the difference the whole system has made. Why doubt them? Are people here claiming they know more than these fellas?

Do you have a link to back this up?

If that is the case, why are Dublin not winning five-in-a-row at minor level?

kilns

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not sure if you missed this but thought I would ask again.


Just out of interest, do you think Dublin men’s and women footballers enjoying their best decade in history, Dublin hurlers and hurling clubs massively improved, juvenile success increased, fifteen to twenty years after a massive increase in funding is coincidental and entirely unrelated to that funding?

and ignore all the other factors..

Gachla

kilns wrote: »

If the GAA were to go with that logic we should dramatically cut the Games development funding the counties like Wicklow, Carlow, Derry and Leitrim get as per head of registered player the funds they received are very high

Not near as close to the level Dublin are at?