Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell · 12-08-2019 12:30PM

upupup wrote: »

Behead someone??...that what the french do...lock him in the tower of london

Not the Tower of London, the Tower in the Palace of Westminster - there is a prison there for such villains.

The last time there was such a Constitutional Crisis, they did behead someone - King Charles the First - so Charles the Third (to be) should be a bit worried.

Enzokk · 12-08-2019 12:31PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

"Taking control of our borders" referred to the movement of people, not of goods.

You say taking control of borders is about immigration and not goods, but if you have the CTA you are not taking control. That is the point. You cannot take control of your borders if you have an open border with another country, which also has an open border with the institution you are leaving to take control of. That is Brexit really, slogans that mean next to nothing.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Well this is a strange direction for him to take...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-ridicules-british-royal-family-in-australian-speech-1.3983728

He said he wants William to live longer than Harry to ensure Harry never becomes King. That man is an idiot, Harry is not behind William to take over. It is the 3 kids of William that is ahead of Harry. This is the guy that was heading the quest to leave the EU, and he cannot get the most basic of facts right. Well done UK, well done.

trellheim wrote: »

oh for fk sake really how stupid do you have to be to stop attending stuff you're entitled to be in and protect your countries' interest

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/12/british-diplomats-to-pull-out-from-eu-decision-making-meetings-within-days

The problem with all of this is you convince the other side that you do want to leave without a deal. It is fine to threaten it to get a deal but if the EU decides there is no going back then there is no going back. Do they not see it? Sir Ivan Rogers has been warning of an accidental no-deal for a while now and like most of his predictions this will unfortunately turn out to be true as well.

Professor Moriarty · 12-08-2019 12:34PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.

Talking about Tusk in Dublin:

"The EU’s most senior official, who didn’t have time for dinner, was treated to a €995 working lunch during his visit to the Irish capital."

What did he eat? What did he drink? Where did he have lunch?

54and56 · 12-08-2019 12:35PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Actually does anyone know if our liquid fuel suppliers have contingency plans in place to source petrol, diesel & kero from the EU if there's a hard Brexit?
Are we likely to see fuel shortages?

Ireland has had a national strategic fuel reserve policy for decades - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Oil/oil-security-policy/Pages/Oil-security-policy.aspx

Stop moaning ffs · 12-08-2019 12:46PM

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all

https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

RobAMerc · 12-08-2019 12:51PM

So now, according to the express - Germany will loose close to 55% as many jobs as the UK in a no deal Brexit ??
I'm no economist - but are we over egging our importance a bit here ?

EDIT : (Although I see now the source is the University of Leuven Belgium )

no-deal-brexit-2003698.webp?r=1565607929803

no-deal-brexit-2003698.webp?r=1565607929803

trellheim · 12-08-2019 12:52PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all

https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

we call this an insult in diplomatic terms. Not entirely convinced of its usefulness but Cummings obviously thinks its the right track

As I have been stating many times the pressure is coming on now, whats next on the grid I wonder

Seth Brundle · 12-08-2019 12:52PM

54&56 wrote: »

Ireland has had a national strategic fuel reserve policy for decades - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Oil/oil-security-policy/Pages/Oil-security-policy.aspx

Yeah, thanks - had forgotten about NORA

ancapailldorcha · 12-08-2019 12:52PM

The source given there is "University of Leuven". That's as close to unhelpful as I think you could get.

I think it's the Express trying to sell the latest batch of English exceptionalism to its ever ageing readership.

Professor Moriarty · 12-08-2019 12:53PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all

https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

Well, what the spokesperson said is that there is no meeting scheduled, not that there will be no meeting.

ambro25 · 12-08-2019 12:57PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all

https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

Purest and highest form of gaslighting there is, if true: no.10 agrees visit with Irish counterpart (long in advance, std protocol), waits for 1st Irish annoucement, then disavows = makes it look as if Irish desperate for talks and/or incompetent, besides instilling still more distrust across the board.

Between shenanigans like that and barricading the UK diplomatic staff from EU working meetings, I'd say the UK is now pro-actively taking torches to bridges.

Stop moaning ffs · 12-08-2019 12:59PM

ambro25 wrote: »

Purest and highest form of gaslighting there is, if true: no.10 confirms visit to Irish counterpart (long in advance, std protocol), waits for 1st Irish annoucement, then disavows = makes it look as if Irish desperate for talks and/or incompetent, besides instilling still more distrust across the board.

Looks that way for sure.

Kermit.de.frog · 12-08-2019 12:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, what the spokesperson said is that there is no meeting scheduled, not that there will be no meeting.

Like I said - there is NO WAY Johnson is coming to Dublin to be told "no".

It's all about optics.

He won't go to Brussels either.

I 100% believe there will be a general election before any such meeting.

Enzokk · 12-08-2019 01:01PM

RobAMerc wrote: »

So now, according to the express - Germany will loose close to 55% as many jobs as the UK in a no deal Brexit ??
I'm no economist - but are we over egging our importance a bit here ?

EDIT : (Although I see now the source is the University of Leuven Belgium )

The takeaway for me from that picture is that there will a lot of job losses all over the place. I have to ask, why are they doing it? Seriously, can anyone give any good reason looking at that picture as to why they are leaving?

Professor Moriarty · 12-08-2019 01:04PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Like I said - there is NO WAY Johnson is coming to Dublin to be told "no".

It's all about optics.

He won't go to Brussels either.

I 100% believe there will be a general election before any such meeting.

You could well be right.

LordBasil · 12-08-2019 01:10PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record for a Taoiseach. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.

Exactly, since when are The Daily Express concerned as to where IRISH tax payers' money is going.

amacca · 12-08-2019 01:10PM

Enzokk wrote: »

RobAMerc wrote: »

So now, according to the express - Germany will loose close to 55% as many jobs as the UK in a no deal Brexit ??
I'm no economist - but are we over egging our importance a bit here ?

EDIT : (Although I see now the source is the University of Leuven Belgium )

The takeaway for me from that picture is that there will a lot of job losses all over the place. I have to ask, why are they doing it? Seriously, can anyone give any good reason looking at that picture as to why they are leaving?

Because occasionally the conditions are right for the loons aided and abetted by opportunists to take over the asylum .....thats the best I can come up with.

Stop moaning ffs · 12-08-2019 01:20PM

I don’t see the British public turning on the queen at any stage. Even the most rabid brexiters.
It won’t come to that anyways though.

Hopefully.

12-08-2019 01:20PM

RobAMerc wrote: »

So now, according to the express - Germany will loose close to 55% as many jobs as the UK in a no deal Brexit ??
I'm no economist - but are we over egging our importance a bit here ?

EDIT : (Although I see now the source is the University of Leuven Belgium )

Rather a strange "worst case scenario" image, it appears to assume that trade stops completely and is not replaced at all.
Rather silly to assume that a car buyer who can't get a BMW will not buy a car at all, of course not, he'll buy something else. Same for BMW, if they can't sell the car in the UK, they'll make them to sell somewhere else.

LordBasil · 12-08-2019 01:23PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

And then it got worse, so here is a possible sequence of events
1. Johnson looses vote of no confidence
2. Refuses step down
3. Queen has to decide and tells him get lost (she is already grumbling about incompetence)
4. Boris says no
5. Rabid media turns on royal family, groundwork of calling them anti democratic and tainted with foreign blood is being laid now
6. October 31st rolls by and no extension is requested/given
7. Macron tightens screws in Calais
8. US propose a trade deal that makes UK Puerto Rico in the North Sea
9. Scotland seizes it's chance to escape the asylum

Could the Queen not just dissolve parliament and therefore force a GE? This would pass the decision to the GBP.

Lackadaisical · 12-08-2019 01:25PM

LordBasil wrote: »

Exactly, since when are The Daily Express concerned as to where IRISH tax payers' money is going.

They’re basically trying very hard to cause a political problem here and I would suspect it will get worse in the weeks ahead.

I also note the €400k covers the entire diplomatic global budget for that and not just the EU but they’ve spun it to look like that in the headline.

It’s actually one area I’m not that bothered about. We’re trying to mitigate a huge crisis and it needs everything thrown at diplomacy and that includes wining and dining people.

It’s basically the diplomatic corps’ marketing budget and the other side of it is that it’s probably keeping up a flow of billions in investment. It’s a period of time where Ireland has no choice but to lash resources into diplomacy.

Kermit.de.frog · 12-08-2019 01:31PM

Reading this in the Telegraph

Irish sources said their Prime Minister would make clear that the backstop is not up for renegotiation at their planned meeting early next month.

The move could scupper the talks even before they take place as Mr Johnson has insisted the backstop is “undemocratic” and that its removal is a pre-condition for any talks with Brussels.

Ok, it's a pre-condition, so what exactly is the UK threatening the EU with if the pre-condition is not met?

That's how absurd that reads.

"We are going to pull the trigger, blow our heads off and you might get some blood on your shirts"!

EU should turn the tables then and say "You are out on Oct 31, deal or no deal" and hammer home that message.

trellheim · 12-08-2019 01:31PM

Could the Queen not just dissolve parliament and therefore force a GE? This would pass the decision to the GBP.

UK FTPA technically removed the sovereign's prerogative here.

part of my head is wondering why Nikki Da Costa went to work for Johnson I used to like her on twitter

I also note the €400k covers the entire diplomatic global budget for that and not just the EU but they’ve spun it to look like that in the headline.

400k and cheap at twice the price

JPF82 · 12-08-2019 01:35PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record for a Taoiseach. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.

Sure it costs multiples if that amount for Royal Visits.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/revealed-how-much-prince-charles-s-irish-visits-cost-garda-1.3178751

listermint · 12-08-2019 01:36PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Reading this in the Telegraph

Ok, it's a pre-condition, so what exactly is the UK threatening the EU with if the pre-condition is not met?

That's how absurd that reads.

"We are going to pull the trigger, blow our heads off and you might get some blood on your shirts"!

EU should turn the tables then and say "You are out on Oct 31, deal or no deal" and hammer home that message.

Message should be "Why wait" You can go tomorrow.

Make that clear in their press and see what comes out of it

FrancieBrady · 12-08-2019 01:39PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I don’t see the British public turning on the queen at any stage. Even the most rabid brexiters.
It won’t come to that anyways though.

Hopefully.

They almost did over Diana. The modern royal family watch their p&q's since. They were much more remote before that.

Kermit.de.frog · 12-08-2019 01:49PM

Dominic Cummings has taken to Twitter (out Oct 31st etc etc)

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1160891362583166976

Do they not understand that the EU decision makers can actually see this stuff and it might come across as antagonistic? (they do understand of course)

VinLieger · 12-08-2019 01:58PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Dominic Cummings has taken to Twitter (out Oct 31st etc etc)

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1160891362583166976

Do they not understand that the EU decision makers can actually see this stuff and it might come across as antagonistic?

During the entire process they've been arguing and shouting in public, on TV, in newspapers and on twitter how they are gonna do this or that to the big bad EU and still have been constantly shocked when they showed up to the table and the EU was 100% prepared for the thing they had told the world they were going to do.

Lackadaisical · 12-08-2019 02:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They almost did over Diana. The modern royal family watch their p&q's since. They were much more remote before that.

The tabloids basically ran Dianna into the ground and I would strong suspect the fact that she was being pursued aggressively by photographers who sold pictures to the UK tabloids was probably why she died. She shouldn’t have been under so much pressure to constantly run from the media.

After her death the tabloids went into ultra pro Dianna stuff, making out that they loved her having absolutely tortured the woman for most of her adult life.

Then they spent a time aggressively criticizing the Queen for not being emotional enough and engaging in conspiracies about how the royals must have done it, despite the fact she was was in a high speed chase trying to avoid a press photographer!!
That was pushed back against extremely hard by palace and there was a major PR rebuild of the queen to be far softer and the other royals seem to have largely become more PR aware or have become more distant.

In general though the tabloids in the UK are impressively obnoxious and self righteous when criticized. They’ve been the driving force behind all sorts of political movements and are anything but a passive commentator. They’re quite capable of pursuing political agendas and it’s incredibly evident in Brexit.

Very few other countries have a media like this. Even the US media isn’t quite this extreme and it’s very heavy political biases also initially came about through the politicization of Fox News, another Murdock organization, using very much the same tactics as a Uk tabloid.

The UK print media isn’t what you see in most sane, normal, modern democracies. It’s quite a unique phenomenon.

FrancieBrady · 12-08-2019 02:14PM

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The tabloids basically ran Dianna into the ground and I would strong suspect the fact that she was being pursued aggressively by photographers who sold pictures to the UK tabloids was probably why she died. She shouldn’t have been under so much pressure to constantly run from the media.

After her death the tabloids went into ultra pro Dianna stuff, making out that they loved her having absolutely tortured the woman for most of her adult life.

Then they spent a time aggressively criticizing the Queen for not being emotional enough and engaging in conspiracies about how the royals must have done it, despite the fact she was was in a high speed chase trying to avoid a press photographer!!
That was pushed back against extremely hard by palace and there was a major PR rebuild of the queen to be far softer and the other royals seem to have largely become more PR aware or have become more distant.

In general though the tabloids in the UK are impressively obnoxious and self righteous when criticized. They’ve been the driving force behind all sorts of political movements and are anything but a passive commentator. They’re quite capable of pursuing political agendas and it’s incredibly evident in Brexit.

Very few other countries have a media like this. Even the US media isn’t quite this extreme and it’s very heavy political biases also initially came about through the politicization of Fox News, another Murdock organization, using very much the same tactics as a Uk tabloid

I was thinking of the days immediately after her death. Before a media campaign could take hold. The public sentiment was very very raw and the royals were forced to show their grief much more publicly. Agree with the rest, they are a different royal family now.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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