Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

swampgas wrote: »

Why the rage and the hostility? What threat is the EU to England, except perhaps as a threat to the imagined dominant position of England in Europe?

I'd say that's part of it at the higher levels at least. The UK is no longer the big swinging member it once was, because the others are becoming ever more closely integrated and becoming more of a bloc and less of a collection that the UK can disrupt by forming alliances and fomenting argument within the organisation. Rather than accept the new reality, where it's harder to get what you want inside, but even harder outside, they've come up with the myth of the post-Brexit sunny uplands. When that turns out to be a mirage it won't really matter, because the political classes won't be hit nearly as hard as the great unwashed.

I'm thinking out loud rather than making any strong claims here. One thing that strikes me over and over again is the strength of the emotion that seems to drive many Brexiteers, and it's mostly anger at something - what? - I don't know.

Anger at their own lives, I think, whether it's unemployment, crime, the health service, infrastructure. work stress, commuting, house prices, and of course, immigration. Most of this is due to Westminster rather than Brussels however, but after a decades-long diet of blatant anti-EU propaganda from most of the press and also from politicians using the EU as a handy scapegoat instead of owning their own policies, it's easy for them to imagine the dastardly EU grinning evilly as it ties the beautiful and innocent UK to the railroad tracks.

The above is just my own thinking out loud too, of course.

swampgas wrote: »

I'm thinking out loud rather than making any strong claims here. One thing that strikes me over and over again is the strength of the emotion that seems to drive many Brexiteers, and it's mostly anger at something - what? - I don't know.

IMHO it's two things:-

1. The Brexit leaders (Farage, JRM, ERG etc) are angry at the loss of their influence on the global stage and most frustratingly off all within the EU where they are in a club of equals. We all know the political reality is that the big guns in the EU (Germany, France, UK and Italy) carry more weight and influence than the small countries but having to submit to collective decision making and treat smaller countries as equals is not something which sits easy with the English led UK.

2. The Brexit followers are angry at having poor living standards, no increases in wages, austerity, poor education, high levels of crime etc etc and are happy to blithely accept it's all the EU/Johnny Foreigners fault rather than examine the true underlying causes.

Angry (mostly wealthy) leaders frustrated they no longer have the sort of influence they had back in the good old empire days followed by angry supporters who are happy to blame an easy but incorrect target.

Align the above with an unwritten constitution and a not fit for purpose electoral system and you have the perfect conditions for an entire nation to sleepwalk into the greatest self inflicted folly in the history of mankind.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Well this is a strange direction for him to take...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-ridicules-british-royal-family-in-australian-speech-1.3983728

well to be honest I was only waiting for the Royal family to be the next target for the 'unelected undemocratic' demagoguery... by all accounts - there's emanations from the Queen that she's not at all content with the state of Westminster. Maybe this is stage one of reducing her standing.

swampgas wrote: »

I didn't mean to give that impression. As it happens I worked for years in England and have a lot of friends there. I was wondering why there seems to be such anger from certain groups though. Farage might be an outlier in many ways but he represents a certain viewpoint. He loathes the existence of the EU. It's not enough to leave it, he wants it destroyed.

Why the rage and the hostility? What threat is the EU to England, except perhaps as a threat to the imagined dominant position of England in Europe? To repeat, this is from a small but influential minority, not from the English in general.

I'm thinking out loud rather than making any strong claims here. One thing that strikes me over and over again is the strength of the emotion that seems to drive many Brexiteers, and it's mostly anger at something - what? - I don't know.

I've always been a bit mystified by the phenomenon of British/English Euroskepticism, which is of course broader and older than Brexit. The driving force behind the same movement in Ireland is the religious right, but that's a marginal force in England.
I don't have the impression that the broad mass of British people are especially racist or xenophobic, but maybe that tendency is deeper than it seems on the surface and was cleverly channeled by the Brexiteers.

lawred2 wrote: »

well to be honest I was only waiting for the Royal family to be the next target for the 'unelected undemocratic' demagoguery... by all accounts - there's emanations from the Queen that she's not at all content with the state of Westminster. Maybe this is stage one of reducing her standing.

I don't think he's stupid enough to try reduce her standing.

He seems to be trying to lay the groundwork for delegitimising Charles as monarch.

That's an easier target.

oh for fk sake really how stupid do you have to be to stop attending stuff you're entitled to be in and protect your countries' interest

British diplomats will pull out from the EU’s institutional structures of power in Brussels within days, under plans being drawn up by Downing Street.

In an attempt to reinforce the message that the UK is leaving the EU by 31 October, “do or die”, the UK will stop attending the day-to-day meetings that inform the bloc’s decision-making.

The move under discussion is said by UK officials to be in line with Boris Johnson’s first statement in the House of Commons, in which he said he would “unshackle” British diplomacy from EU affairs.

Critics have countered that the symbolic walkout would merely leave the UK blindsided on decisions and ultimately damage the national interest.



EU working group meetings at which British diplomats were expected to take their seats alongside the other 27 member states will deal with issues on security, the pan-European response to any future crises involving civilians, foreign affairs and the protection of consumers interests.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/12/british-diplomats-to-pull-out-from-eu-decision-making-meetings-within-days

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can anybody outline the circumstances that have to occur for the monarchy to get involved and to what extent they can?

I have to say there would be no popcorn left in the village if that happened.

In the case of Johnson loosing a VONC downing street have suggested he would refuse to step down which would cause a constitutional crisis that the Queen would likely have to intervene on as that is the monarchs role.

The SBP getting in on the "anti-Backstop" party now:

Ronan McCrea wrote:

A few red faces over the backstop might save us in the long run
A climbdown at this stage would be humiliating for the government, but such a strategy might actually prevent a hard border...[/b]

https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/red-faces-backstop-might-save-us-long-run-449851

I actually don't think you really need to read much more. It's such tosh.

Has anyone wondered where this internal pressure is coming from? It's so odd.

show me the money.1 wrote: »

The only way it will stop is if the UK crash out hard brexit, then when unemployment goes to 20% and there is riots on the streets ports at a stand still and they cannot negotiate decent trade deals without taffifs.

Only then will they realise what a mistake it has been.

Logically a mature country with strong leadership could, upon reflection, admit it had made a mistake or hadn't fully thought through it's decision to invoke A50 and withdraw it, not necessarily to undermine the result of the referendum in 2016 but to call a time out to re-examine what it wants to achieve by invoking A50, prepare better and once fully prepared in 3-4 years time invoke A50 again in the knowledge that it has a clear plan of what it wants, a clear understanding of what the EU27 can and cannot grant it in terms of access etc and clear preparations in the even that a 2nd negotiation also ended up without a deal.

Unfortunately there seems to be a widely accepted belief that to act in a mature manner is in fact a sign of weakness which must be avoided at all costs.

Emotionally all Brexiteers and now many Remainers through sheer Brexit Fatigue are past V1 as they say in aviation terms and are mentally committed to exiting on Oct 31st no matter what.

I'd expect a 10 year old child to be too immature to admit a mistake, not one of the oldest democracies in the world!!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can she tell him to go? Appoint a PM? Behead someone?

Behead someone??...that what the french do...lock him in the tower of london

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record for a Taoiseach. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.