Sibling Robbing money from father

woodchuck · 06-08-2019 10:54AM

It sounds like your father knows what's going on and presumably doesn't want to take any legal action? So the focus should probably be on damage control from this point onwards to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Changing the PIN is a good move, but obviously the onus will be on your father to protect the card and PIN. You said that the card is being used while he's at work - can you tell him to make sure to bring the card with him to work? It's strange that he doesn't do this already. Also stress to him the importance of keeping his PIN to himself. That he should dispose of the letter containing the PIN asap (ideally at work instead of home - sounds like your sibling is the type who would go through the bins to get it!).

Dial Hard · 06-08-2019 11:40AM

Tell your dad to stop leaving the bank card at home during the day. That's the obvious solution to preventing any further theft. What you do about the historic stuff is another matter.

hawley · 06-08-2019 12:01PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

Tell your dad to stop leaving the bank card at home during the day. That's the obvious solution to preventing any further theft. What you do about the historic stuff is another matter.

The OP is worried about their father revealing the pin to the sibling even now, so obviously the sibling has a fair degree of control over him. We need to remove the possibility of this happening, so it would be easier if there was two cards or some other method of transferring money when the father needs it. It's difficult to get to the crux of the matter because we don't know what type of person the sibling is. Does s/he have a job or is sibling unemployed and looking for cash to gamble and drink? How aggressive is the sibling and is the OP worried about potential elder abuse? It must be serious enough if the OP is considering moving home because of the current situation.

06-08-2019 12:11PM

corklily05 wrote: »

Apologies again, my father is a frail man who has a history of burying his head in the sand. As he said himself "you hear about this all the time on the radio and you never think it'll come to your own front door". He's very disappointed in my sibling and i reckon he hasn't processed this at all yet.

This has all happened in the past week or so, and is fully complying with what i'm doing so far. Getting a new PIN etc.. Thing is now is trying to keep my sibling from manipulating the PIN out of him. Also, trying to prove it will be tough as even though my sibling is a theif, you'd stiil have to go to the guards and get a court order for CCTV footage of him carrying out the act to prove anything.

This would mean family torn apart, as i live in another county my dad in later years might be dependent on my sibling. This might mean i would have to give up my life and move home, which will take some planning as i own a home in the county i live in.

I also think my dad dosen't have the bottle to pursue this. I'm very torn!

The holiday was a mistake by your sibling on this front, buying petrol etc is hard to tie down but a holiday will have to be booked with specific details etc and likely will even be pictures on Facebook etc showing them there.

hawley · 06-08-2019 12:19PM

Naomi Greasy Potassium wrote: »

The holiday was a mistake by your sibling on this front, buying petrol etc is hard to tie down but a holiday will have to be booked with specific details etc and likely will even be pictures on Facebook etc showing them there.

I'm not sure that it makes much difference. They know that the sibling is stealing money from the account and it doesn't seem like the OP's father wishes to take a criminal action against the offender.

Gerianam · 06-08-2019 01:49PM

corklily05 wrote: »

NO!! Absolutely NOT!!

How did your sibling get your dad's PIN ?

wiggle16 · 06-08-2019 01:56PM

Hi OP

I know you're afraid of there being a family rift but in all fairness the rift has already happened.

This is probably the worst thing that a son or daughter can do to a parent, your father must be heartbroken. They cannot be trusted to look out for or look after your father while you are living abroad. If you cannot move home, do you have a trustworthy relative who could look out for him? (Obviously without access to his bank account).

As others have said, make arrangements for the sibling not to have any sort of access to your father's money first of all.
It will be up to your father at the end of the day if he wants to go to the guards. But I would be confronting the sibling myself even if your father doesn't. The rift has already happened.

seamus · 06-08-2019 03:10PM

As others have said, forward damage control is probably the most prudent course of action here. Trying to recoup the money is decision for your father, and if he's not likely to chase it, there's little you can do.

I would let it be known to your sibling that you know what they've done and you're keeping an eye on things. That'll likely make them think twice about trying to coerce the PIN out of your father again.

"He's old school" and "he's set in his ways" are lame excuses for your father's situation to be honest. If his house kept getting robbed because he left the key under the mat, you wouldn't accept, "Ah sure I'm too old to change me ways now" as a reason to keep doing it. You'd tell him to cop on.

He's a man in his sixties. He's still working, so he's far from "frail". He's not a 5 year old, or an 80 year old in residential care. He needs a dose of cop on tbh, to manage his own affairs. By all means help him out, but if he keeps allowing this to happen to him, you're going to need to tell him to grow up and step away. It's not your responsibility to "mind" him, when he's a grown man in full control of his faculties.

Step back for a second and think about why this is suddenly your problem instead of your father's.

Gerianam · 06-08-2019 03:30PM

Are you sure your Dad is not telling YOU what you want to hear? Seems very strange that a man who is still working would not have a better grasp of what is happening to his money ?

Markcheese · 06-08-2019 04:05PM

I'm not sure what the relationship is with other siblings (if any), but if possible make sure everyone is on side, because the spending sibling is going to spin this...
And if they're taking up to 300 a week, plus holidays, they're going to need money to continue that lifestyle, almost anything is possible, so be prepared...

hawley · 06-08-2019 04:45PM

seamus wrote: »

As others have said, forward damage control is probably the most prudent course of action here. Trying to recoup the money is decision for your father, and if he's not likely to chase it, there's little you can do.

I would let it be known to your sibling that you know what they've done and you're keeping an eye on things. That'll likely make them think twice about trying to coerce the PIN out of your father again.

"He's old school" and "he's set in his ways" are lame excuses for your father's situation to be honest. If his house kept getting robbed because he left the key under the mat, you wouldn't accept, "Ah sure I'm too old to change me ways now" as a reason to keep doing it. You'd tell him to cop on.

He's a man in his sixties. He's still working, so he's far from "frail". He's not a 5 year old, or an 80 year old in residential care. He needs a dose of cop on tbh, to manage his own affairs. By all means help him out, but if he keeps allowing this to happen to him, you're going to need to tell him to grow up and step away. It's not your responsibility to "mind" him, when he's a grown man in full control of his faculties.

Step back for a second and think about why this is suddenly your problem instead of your father's.

The OP's father seems to be in a vulnerable place. He lost his wife and seems to be struggling with other problems. He is obviously not a fool and am sure that he noticed the money going from his account, but he can't deal with the problem by himself. It comes across that he feels intimidated by the sibling, but that he also is partially reliant on her/him. The OP has only started trying to deal with this problem, it's not like it's been known about for years.

cannotlogin · 06-08-2019 06:44PM

OP, I understand this is a very emotive issue but I think there's a number of parts to it.

1. Prevent it from ever happening again.
You seem to have done most of this already - (a) get a new card (existing details may be known to sibling and can be used online (b) get a new PIN (c) make sure your father cards the card with him all the time (d) if he needs your sibling to pick him up anything, let him give him cash only - therefore pocketing the change is the only risk.

2. Plan for the future
Maybe suggest your father speak to a solicitor 're a power of attorney which nominates you to look after this affairs if he ever gets sick, vulnerable etc. He may also wish to look at his will etc.

3. The Betrayal & Trust
This one is for your father to decide. Talk to him about what he wants/needs from this and let him decide how to address it, if at all.

4. Recovery of Funds
I'm not sure how the Bank will view it given your father disclosed his PIN to your sibling. If he hadn't, then your sibling couldn't have taken the funds unfortunately. Legal advice may say, there's a case for pursuing your brother but I doubt the Bank will.

5. Your own relationship with your sibling
This one is for you to decide - the others above are your father's choice

Be careful about letting your own outrage influence your father's decisions. He still has to be able to make his own decisions. He is working and clearly not incapable. He has already been subject of undue influence from your brother, it would be a shame for the relationship between you and your father become strained too.

splinter65 · 06-08-2019 07:03PM

Please read this leaflet OP

https://www.ageaction.ie/sites/default/files/29253-age_action_a5_leaflet_web.pdf

and contact Age Action to get proper advice on how to move forward with this issue as it’s quite a minefield and you don’t want to risk making things worse then they actually are.

Purple Mountain · 06-08-2019 07:40PM

OP, I am pretty sure if your dad left his pin lying around or disclosed it to other person, the bank would be very reluctant to treat as fraud.
AFAIK your dad would definitely need a Gardai report to forge ahead with any kind of claim.
But obviously the bank would verify all this.
I'm just telling you, I wouldn't be too hopeful about money recovery.
Please also get your dad to never leave the card unattended as its very easy to use online without the pin number.
You should have him change the pin for online banking as well as the card pin too.
I hate to say it, but he possibly had a feeling this was happening by the way you describe the dynamics.

corklily05 · 06-08-2019 07:46PM

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Opening a 2nd account seems to be the way to go and i'm going to look into it.

There's a few thing i would like to clear up.

@ seamus, hawley hit the nail on the head. My father is frail, has struggled with mental health issues and made an attempt on his own life a few years back. He's also a very nervous man and stand 5ft 5inches tall. My siblin is 6ft 2inches tall and can be very intimidating towards him. They're clearly very manipulative and has a lot of control over my father.

My sibling does work for the public sector and i feel that a lot of the spending from my sibling is as a result of an ongoing gambling problem that he would never admit to.

They made up this bulls**t last week about training for some job that they could do during a career break, the reality is that i reckon they were at the galway races.

@ markcheese I have no other siblings, and all of my cousins seem to be of a mouthpiece and i would deem them untrustworthy. I will try and get my father to change his will which has been recommended to me and hit my sibling where it hurts.

I have actually told my father to leave the card back where my sibling would get to it, and when they go to use it, it'll be locked. My sibling won't be able to help themselves and will begin to ask roundabout questions about the PIN on the card. Good or bad idea?

@ gerianam My dad is most certainly NOT telling me what i want to hear, also when my mother died my father didn't know how to use an ATM card, yes really!! So. my brother took it upon himself to teach him! Therefore, he got the PIN. It galls me as i write this

@ wiggie16, i'm aware that the rift has already happened but my sibling is always playing the angles and thinks he's smarter than everyone else. He clearly underestimates me as a sibling to even think about doing what i'm doing. Very fond of the drink also so i'm afraid as we all know money tears apart familes, this could get violent

@Nathalie Greasy Horsefly thanks for the tip about the holiday, brother does not have fb, nor do i

@woodchuck my father just dosen't have it in him to take legal action, he's a peaceful man who'd never harm a fly and cannot believe this has happened.

wiggle16 · 06-08-2019 08:38PM

corklily05 wrote: »

@ markcheese I have no other siblings, and all of my cousins seem to be of a mouthpiece and i would deem them untrustworthy. I will try and get my father to change his will which has been recommended to me and hit my sibling where it hurts.

I would recommend against doing this, for a couple of reasons. The first is that trying to interfere in his affairs may backfire: he's just found out he's been betrayed and taken advantage of in a horrible way by one of his kids. His trust is likely shot and he might suspicious of you too if you try to interfere in his will. You'd mean well but it may not come across that way. It's your father's will and it's up to him who gets what after he's gone.
The other is that you'll only be provoking your sibling, who you say is imposing and can intimidate your father.

Personally I think this little scrote deserves to be disinherited, but you need to leave that to your father. Other than making sure that his documentation (will, titles to any assets etc) is someplace safe that your sibling can't get to it, I would not interfere in his will.

You've described your father as very trusting and peaceful - you could end up putting pressure on him to do things he doesn't want to, without meaning to.

I have actually told my father to leave the card back where my sibling would get to it, and when they go to use it, it'll be locked. My sibling won't be able to help themselves and will begin to ask roundabout questions about the PIN on the card. Good or bad idea?

While I'd get great satisfaction from this, I don't know what it would achieve that confronting them wouldn't. You already know they've been stealing from your father. Your father knows. And your sibling knows they've been stealing all this time. So you won't learn anything from it and it will only put your father in the difficult position of waiting for your sibling to come to him.
Basically I wouldn't go playing games. You know they've been stealing, and have stolen a lot of money. Whether they find out you know because you confront them or because the card no longer works, the result is the same. You have more control over things if you confront them because it doesn't give them a chance to come up with a BS response.

@ wiggie16, i'm aware that the rift has already happened but my sibling is always playing the angles and thinks he's smarter than everyone else. He clearly underestimates me as a sibling to even think about doing what i'm doing. Very fond of the drink also so i'm afraid as we all know money tears apart familes, this could get violent

I think one way or another your sibling is going to find out pretty soon that the game is up, I think you'd be best off to put them wide to the fact that you both know what's going on and that you've put a stop to it and that any further attempts to take advantage of your father will end up involving the Gardaí.

Dial Hard · 06-08-2019 09:02PM

I think you can drop the "my sibling" thing at this stage. You've referred to him as "he" several times and I doubt anyone thinks you have a 6' 2" sister. It's one less thing to be trying to think about when you're posting.

Anyway, it seems bananas to me that your dad is as helpless as you're making out - only in his early 60s and didn't know how to use an ATM card til last year? Is there more going on here than meets the eye? Is there a possibility he has an undiagnosed learning disability or early-onset Alzheimer's or similar? I'm not trying to give medical advice or anything of the sort, I'm just finding it really difficult to reconcile your description of him with the fact that he's still relatively young and working full-time. Was he always like this?

Also, your brother; what's his situation? You've mentioned his job but is he married? In a relationship? Kids? Friends? I'm just wondering is there *anyone* else who you can scope this out with/bounce some thoughts off?

corklily05 · 06-08-2019 09:15PM

@ dial hard,point taken, i swear to you, its only in the past 2/3 years he can use an ATM, he was never really bothered when my mother was alive. He has struggled with alcohol and mental health problems for the past few years and it has put him in a vunerable situation. I would agree he may have an undiagnosed learning problem, alzheimer's definitely not.

Why are people finding it hard to believe that my dad is easily intimidated and he's frail? He is, end of story and it's because of this my brother took advantage, he's a scumbag through and through.

My brother has a house, girlfriend and child on the way. He changed careers a few years and took a big pay cut, probably on half of what he used to earn. But, still wanted to live the life he had before and resorted to this so he could keep that lifestyle up.

He also hit my father for 5,000 loan (which he hasn't paid back a single cent of) to buy a 161 audi high spec import a few months back. The audacity of him!!

@wiggie16, i see what you're saying about will, the card etc.. maybe its for the best

LegacyUser · 06-08-2019 11:15PM

corklily05 wrote: »

@wiggie16, i see what you're saying about will, the card etc.. maybe its for the best

Do not get him to change the will, it's only asking for trouble if and when your father dies, he could easily get legal he could say your father was mentally unwell and contest the will would end up costing a fortune and taking years.

Open a credit union account for your Dad and put some money there and open a saving acc in a bank too keep the minimum in his current account.

No harm talking to a solicitor abut what has happened and getting power of attorney for your dad now while he's all here my parents did it. We've seen others leave it to long and by the time the person needs it it's to late.

heretochat · 07-08-2019 10:37AM

I would tread very carefully here too OP.

Of most importance, do not under any circumstances get your father to change his will to your benefit. If he is as old and frail and open to manipulation as you suggest, do you really want to leave yourself open to accusations of having manipulated him for your own benefit?

I would also tread carefully when dealing with his banking affairs and money matters generally. Again your sibling could in due course accuse you of taking money, hiding money etc.

When a parent dies (which I have experience of), there is always a dominant "child" who takes over, who "looks after" the surviving parent's house, money etc.

There are innumerable cases before the courts regarding wills and allocations of wealth, with accusations being thrown around about dishonest dealing.

My advice is to leave all such matters in the hands of a trusted family solicitor, while keeping a weather eye on things.

Just don't fall into the situation of your sibling throwing the same accusations at you as you are at him.

hawley · 07-08-2019 10:52AM

corklily05 wrote: »

@ dial hard,point taken, i swear to you, its only in the past 2/3 years he can use an ATM, he was never really bothered when my mother was alive. He has struggled with alcohol and mental health problems for the past few years and it has put him in a vunerable situation. I would agree he may have an undiagnosed learning problem, alzheimer's definitely not.

Why are people finding it hard to believe that my dad is easily intimidated and he's frail? He is, end of story and it's because of this my brother took advantage, he's a scumbag through and through.

My brother has a house, girlfriend and child on the way. He changed careers a few years and took a big pay cut, probably on half of what he used to earn. But, still wanted to live the life he had before and resorted to this so he could keep that lifestyle up.

He also hit my father for 5,000 loan (which he hasn't paid back a single cent of) to buy a 161 audi high spec import a few months back. The audacity of him!!

@wiggie16, i see what you're saying about will, the card etc.. maybe its for the best

I think that even if you do all these things such as setting up new bank accounts and a having a second debit card, you're still going to find it might on impossible to prevent your brother from getting money from your father. It comes across like your father was aware of what happening all along but is quite isolated and likes having your brother calling in and out. The thing is that your father might need money in future for house repairs or something like home help and if you don't do anything now, every penny will be gone. Could you ask your father if he'd be willing to allow you to become a joint executor on a savings account.

Lackey · 07-08-2019 04:09PM

Credit union is a great idea
take out any remaining money and put it into credit union
Standing order from his wages every week leaving just enough for direct debits and groceries.
set up online banking and you keep the pin
Then your dad has perfect excuse that he would have to go into the branch to withdraw cash and he’s working/your visiting /golfing whatever.
You can transfer money from his credit union into his bank account if he needs extra cash online if he’s not bothered going into the branch.
If he’s asked why ? Say he’s noticed his money is dwindling and he wants it somewhere without easy access.
Leave out cash for groceries where the card is normally left, again just say he’s going cash and credit union to keep an eye on his balance.
What to do over missing money ? I don’t know.

ILoveYourVibes · 07-08-2019 04:10PM

Tell your brother you know he is stealing and to stop it now.

Tell him you are keeping track of everything.

I will try and get my father to change his will which has been recommended to me and hit my sibling where it hurts.

When you father passes your sibling will still be legally entitled to his inheritance unfortunately or fortunately that is the law etc.

BrokenArrows · 07-08-2019 04:18PM

1. Put all of your fathers cash into a separate account which does not have an ATM card.
2. Have his salary paid into this new account.
3. Setup a standing order to transfer a certain amount from this new account into your fathers current account. Say he needs 1000 a month then transfer this amount into his current account.
4. Setup a text alert with the bank to your fathers phone. Every transaction should send an alert to his phone. This will make him aware if transactions are occurring which he is not making. If you dont think he will pay attention to then then set it up with your phone.
5. If your father needs more money in any month then he just needs to give you a call.

07-08-2019 04:34PM

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

When you father passes your sibling will still be legally entitled to his inheritance unfortunately or fortunately that is the law etc.

If the father makes a new will leaving him out be won’t be entitled to anything.

I was at a information evening on inheritances etc recently and it’s close to impossible to contest a will in Ireland according to the solicitor there on the night.

ILoveYourVibes · 07-08-2019 06:13PM

Naomi Greasy Potassium wrote: »

If the father makes a new will leaving him out be won’t be entitled to anything.

I was at a information evening on inheritances etc recently and it’s close to impossible to contest a will in Ireland according to the solicitor there on the night.

He will be entitled to make a claim.Any claim must be brought within 6 months of a Grant of Probate or a Grant of Probate with Will Annexed issuing from the Probate Office.

Also you cannot disinherit a spouse. Regardless of what your will says. I think it also goes for civil partners.

But if the op has the father change the will etc right now to disinherit the sibling based on this alleged knowledge I don't know how that would play.

Thanks for jogging my memory though.

corklily05 · 07-08-2019 08:43PM

folks.

Again thanks for the great advise. A 2nd bank account or a credit union account is the way to go. In the next week or so, text alerts and internet banking will also be setup. Legal advise/power of attorney will follow, baby steps are whats required here. My father unfortunately will need to take this slowly and 1 step at a time. Will keep you updated on the situation and may look for more suggestions

tara73 · 07-08-2019 09:07PM

what I find kind of weird in all this, you never mentioned talking to your brother.
did you break up the communication long ago or did you just do all this things without ever talking to him first?

I don't know, my first action would be to call my sibling and ask him what he's done, let him explain himself. Also, I would have spoken to your father first before taking all the steps with banks and to try to find out from him how to proceed best, what's on his mind. As others tried to point out also, he's probably lonely, maybe he was aware there's something going on with your brother and his money but he turned a blind eye because his companionship means more than the money to him.

Sorry, but I get the impression from your posts it's all about the money (which you and your brother will inherit..) and to put the biggest revenge possible upon your brother (changing the will) and you totally neglect your fragile fathers wellbeing in all this.

Don't get me wrong, what your brother is doing is a foul thing to do and I would probably do the same, prevent him from getting anymore money, but I just feel so sad for your dad and I think you need to look out for him in all this. He also might need his son if you like it or not.

corklily05 · 08-08-2019 04:01PM

@tara73 my father accompanied me to the bank to lock the card and order a new PIN, i would never do anything without his consent. My father getting all his money back is my first priority, i needed to take these steps first to prevent any more money going missing. Every step i'm taking in the short term, a 2nd bank account, text alerts, internet banking etc are all for my fathers benefit.

I threw out ideas about inheritence to get advise, i've taken the advise on board and i thank you all. I want to stress that in way am i doing any of this for profit, the reason i haven't confronted my brother about this is that as people have pointed out, it's my fathers money not mine and i'm playing the long game here. It's only when my father agrees will we proceed with confronting him.

Putting the money out of his reach was first priority. You have to understand my father is very cut up about this, and everything we're doing to stop this is with him present.

Cuddlesworth · 08-08-2019 04:49PM

corklily05 wrote: »

My father getting all his money back is my first priority

Never going to happen. Any person who would do that is also the the same type of person who will never pay back a cent.

Sibling Robbing money from father

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