Timber frame vs. concrete built

07-08-2019 1:49pm #1

It strikes me that most of the new housing developments coming on stream from Cairn etc. are timber frame houses.

I am not well versed in construction techniques or the pros and cons of one type of structure over the other, but my kneejerk reaction to timber frame houses is that they just can't be as good in terms of soundproofing and durability.

I would imagine that in a timber frame house, noise from one room is easily heard in other rooms - whether that noise be talking, TV, footfall, coughing, a flushing toilet, or whatever.

The one or two agents I spoke to assured me that while noise was once a problem with timber frame houses, it is no longer due to improved materials and builders "going above and beyond the regulations" (this latter point especially doesn't seem very plausible to me).

So I guess I'm appealing to the experience of people who live in newer timber frame houses -- are they as solid and soundproof as concrete built homes?

awec · 07-08-2019 2:06pm

It comes down to the insulation. In theory there is little difference between the two sound wise, once built correctly.

You could have a block built house but if the insulation is inadequate you'll still hear noise between walls.

iwillhtfu · 07-08-2019 2:11pm

Keep in mind OP not all timber frame homes are equal much the same as block built. A large number of timber frame homes built during the boom were thrown up and built/finished very poorly not to mention the Semi d's/terraced homes that are only divided by 4 plasterboards and a stud wall.

Cyrus · 07-08-2019 2:14pm

people are confused as well as to what a timber frame home is.

a timber frame house is a complete timber frame, most block built houses will still have a timber carcass to create the internal floor plan.

07-08-2019 3:08pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Keep in mind OP not all timber frame homes are equal much the same as block built. A large number of timber frame homes built during the boom were thrown up and built/finished very poorly not to mention the Semi d's/terraced homes that are only divided by 4 plasterboards and a stud wall.

I well believe it. The question is, are houses being built today being similarly thrown up?

awec · 07-08-2019 3:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I well believe it. The question is, are houses being built today being similarly thrown up?

No.

Standards and regulations much higher these days.

07-08-2019 3:49pm

Cyrus wrote: »

people are confused as well as to what a timber frame home is.

a timber frame house is a complete timber frame, most block built houses will still have a timber carcass to create the internal floor plan.

A block built house will only have timber partitions upstairs and thats only if there is no hollow core. The vast majority of people (certainly anyone selfbuilding) get hollowcore now though so all the house will be block work which is a much much better job imo.

Personally I’d stick with block built and would not even consider a house that didn’t have hollowcore for the second floor.

Cyrus · 07-08-2019 3:51pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

A block built house will only have timber partitions upstairs and thats only if there is no hollow core. The vast majority of people (certainly anyone selfbuilding) get hollowcore now though so all the house will be block work which is a much much better job imo.

Personally I’d stick with block built and would not even consider a house that didn’t have hollowcore for the second floor.

so a block built house (external walls all block) wont have stud walls downstairs?

presume you mean hollow core for the under floor upstairs?

i take your word on that, but i dont see many developer built new builds with hollow core on the second floor and i have been in a few.

07-08-2019 3:56pm

Cyrus wrote: »

so a block built house (external walls all block) wont have stud walls downstairs?

presume you mean hollow core for the under floor upstairs?

No, well I’ve certainly never seen it anyway. All the internal walls downstairs will be block build.

Yes hollowcore is for the underfloor upstairs and if you have hollowcore then the internal walls upstairs will be blockwork also.

Stud walls are only for upstairs in a house without hollowcore as you can support the weight of block work on joists. I’m sure developers are not doing hollowcore as standard but it’s certainly much more common and as I said virtually no one having their own house built is using anything but hollowcore for many years now. Hollowcore is so so much better.

meeeeh · 07-08-2019 4:00pm

We rented in tiger block house. Except outside walls all other wals were timber frame. We could hear every argument neighbours had.

We self build imported timber frame (certified for German market) and it's very good. Top floor is timber and poured concrete for underfloor heating. There are no sound issues because it's well insulated. Timber frame has probably shorter life span but quality can be just as good as concrete. It's the quality of build that matters a lot more than the type of build.

Cyrus · 07-08-2019 4:01pm

id prefer that too to be honest, no matter how well its done you get creaking from subfloors unfortunately.

i was in several new build estates in Dublin at the more expensive end of the market and the best you will get is block built with timber internal partitioning with a lot of them going full timber frame.

If i was building myself id also go with hollow core.

awec · 07-08-2019 4:04pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

A block built house will only have timber partitions upstairs and thats only if there is no hollow core. The vast majority of people (certainly anyone selfbuilding) get hollowcore now though so all the house will be block work which is a much much better job imo.

Personally I’d stick with block built and would not even consider a house that didn’t have hollowcore for the second floor.

Wrong.

Modern block build houses often have stud walls upstairs and downstairs. You can fit more insulation in stud walls.

Cyrus · 07-08-2019 4:07pm

awec wrote: »

Wrong.

Modern block build houses often have stud walls upstairs and downstairs. You can fit more insulation in stud walls.

i think what he was saying was that if you have have a hollow core first floor you wont have stud partitions anywhere (as i presume they wont hold the weight?)

but i dont think hollow core sub floors are that prevalent outside of self builds.

awec · 07-08-2019 4:12pm

Cyrus wrote: »

i think what he was saying was that if you have have a hollow core first floor you wont have stud partitions anywhere (as i presume they wont hold the weight?)

but i dont think hollow core sub floors are that prevalent outside of self builds.

He's also saying block built houses don't have stud walls downstairs, which is incorrect.

07-08-2019 4:13pm

awec wrote: »

Wrong.

Modern block build houses often have stud walls upstairs and downstairs. You can fit more insulation in stud walls.

I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.

Even just driving past building sites I’m always looking in and you can see blocklayers working away on internal walls. If stud partitions are happening downstairs they are rare imo.

I’ve never seen internal walls being insulated either so not sure where the stud walls having more room for insulation comes into it.

mulbot · 07-08-2019 4:17pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.

Agree here, I'm the industry, I haven't come across a house built in any estate I've been on(in the last 3 years) , where the full downstairs aren't all block walls if it's a block built house. Upstairs timber , but not downstairs.

awec · 07-08-2019 4:22pm

I'm sitting in one right now.

Grew up in a block built house, live in a house with stud partitions everywhere (built in 2019), the difference is slim-to-none in terms of sound. Heat is significantly better in my new house, but that's not really a fair comparison.

The only real annoyance for me is you've to take more care when hanging things on the wall, but it's minor.

That said, if stud walls are not done correctly they are rubbish.

mulbot · 07-08-2019 4:25pm

awec wrote: »

I'm sitting in one right now.

Grew up in a block built house, live in a house with stud partitions everywhere (built in 2019), the difference is slim-to-none in terms of sound. Heat is significantly better in my new house, but that's not really a fair comparison.

The only real annoyance for me is you've to take more care when hanging things on the wall, but it's minor.

That said, if stud walls are not done correctly they are rubbish.

Are your timber walls insulated(the internal walls). If you gave it a thump does it not make more sound than a block wall?

dhaughton99 · 07-08-2019 4:26pm

I moved into one over 10 years ago and have no issues. It’s was one of the councils who paid one of the big timber frame companies to put them in. It was used by the council to see if they were a faster and cheaper option. Took them over 2 years to build 22 and cost over 3 mil. Heat wise is fine but according to the clerk of works, it would cost €100 to heat because they were that well insulated. Was dead wrong on that. Sound wise is fine but my neighbors are old so wasn’t expecting much of an issue. One of the neighbors has been put in an old folks and a family of 5 moving in soon so dreading that. The council had people in to renovate next door, new kitchen, painting etc. They had some crowd in and with a massive drill, put in vents from the outside in. I remember asking the clerk of works re vents and he explained that the vents are in the window frames and there’s slits at the top of the house to let the frame breathe. When talking to the council during the renovation, I got the impression that they didn’t realize that they were timber framed. The council put in another 20 houses in the land adjacent to us and people moved in last year. All concrete. Beautiful looking. Finished to the highest. Big back and front gardens and solar and reclaimed heating. Turn around in a year and €3.5 mil.

awec · 07-08-2019 4:29pm

mulbot wrote: »

Are your timber walls insulated(the internal walls). If you gave it a thump does it not make more sound than a block wall?

If I hit the wall a thump it sounds hollow.

I think they are insulated, but honestly we've reached the limit of my knowledge now.

The house is A2/A3 rated, but not sure if internal wall insulation plays any part in that.

mulbot · 07-08-2019 4:33pm

awec wrote: »

If I hit the wall a thump it sounds hollow.

I think they are insulated, but honestly we've reached the limit of my knowledge now. The house is A2/A3 rated, but not sure if internal wall insulation plays any part in that.

ðŸ˜. You won't hear the same sound from block though.

awec · 07-08-2019 4:36pm

mulbot wrote: »

ðŸ˜. You won't hear the same sound from block though.

The downstairs internal dividing walls are definitely not block. They sound hollow, and they're not thick enough to be block with stud work attached to the block.

I am pretty sure the development up the street from me is exactly the same.

meeeeh · 07-08-2019 4:38pm

mulbot wrote: »

Are your timber walls insulated(the internal walls). If you gave it a thump does it not make more sound than a block wall?

Ours are packed with about 10cm of insulation. They also have concrete reinforced timber panels on kitchen walls so cabinets are easier to hang. Similar to some other walls on the house where we assumed there will be pictures and similar hanging.

My parents house has block walls and I notice no difference in sound insulation.

07-08-2019 4:52pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

I moved into one over 10 years ago and have no issues. It’s was one of the councils who paid one of the big timber frame companies to put them in. It was used by the council to see if they were a faster and cheaper option. Took them over 2 years to build 22 and cost over 3 mil. Heat wise is fine but according to the clerk of works, it would cost €100 to heat because they were that well insulated. Was dead wrong on that. Sound wise is fine but my neighbors are old so wasn’t expecting much of an issue. One of the neighbors has been put in an old folks and a family of 5 moving in soon so dreading that. The council had people in to renovate next door, new kitchen, painting etc. They had some crowd in and with a massive drill, put in vents from the outside in. I remember asking the clerk of works re vents and he explained that the vents are in the window frames and there’s slits at the top of the house to let the frame breathe. When talking to the council during the renovation, I got the impression that they didn’t realize that they were timber framed. The council put in another 20 houses in the land adjacent to us and people moved in last year. All concrete. Beautiful looking. Finished to the highest. Big back and front gardens and solar and reclaimed heating. Turn around in a year and €3.5 mil.

You say you don't hear your neighbours but what about other people in your own house moving around upstairs or in adjacent bedrooms?

dhaughton99 · 07-08-2019 5:21pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You say you don't hear your neighbours but what about other people in your own house moving around upstairs or in adjacent bedrooms?

Live on my own so can’t really say.

awec · 07-08-2019 5:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You say you don't hear your neighbours but what about other people in your own house moving around upstairs or in adjacent bedrooms?

In terms of noise between floors, if someone is walking very heavily, or a child is running about, you'll hear footsteps in the room beneath it, but you get used to them to the point you don't notice. "Normal" movement isn't heard.

But that's the same for timber frame and block frame houses, because as said before, unless you're building your own house the floor upstairs will be timber.

dhaughton99 · 07-08-2019 5:38pm

The internal walls are pictured here. Same insulation in all the internal walls. Upstairs floors are 3/4 marine ply. In the last pic, the large wall is the wall adjoining next doors. It then got insulated with rock wool, and two thick sheets of fire retardant plasterboard.

07-08-2019 5:50pm

awec wrote: »

But that's the same for timber frame and block frame houses, because as said before, unless you're building your own house the floor upstairs will be timber.

This is not true, there are estates built with hollowcore flooring, I even saw a recent social housing development that used hollowcore.

mulbot · 07-08-2019 6:00pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

This is not true, there are estates built with hollowcore flooring, I even saw a recent social housing development that used hollowcore.

I wonder are we living near each otherðŸ˜I just finished a contract on a social estate built like this.

Rows Grower · 07-08-2019 6:16pm

Timber frame all the way, of course all internal walls should be insulated.

You will not believe how easy they are to heat, and how well they retain heat.

No issues whatsoever with noise travelling from one room to another, no issues hanging pictures(????)

Easier and quicker for all tradesmen to do their job.

Did I mention heating? If my youngest lad ran down the hall he'd heat the house for a few days.

Timber frame for the win.

Gumbo · 07-08-2019 6:46pm

awec wrote: »

No.

Standards and regulations much higher these days.

Standards are higher, sound regs are higher but the basic principle of the party wall is still very similar to TF houses built 15 years ago.

Gumbo · 07-08-2019 6:48pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

No, well I’ve certainly never seen it anyway. All the internal walls downstairs will be block build.

Yes hollowcore is for the underfloor upstairs and if you have hollowcore then the internal walls upstairs will be blockwork also.

Stud walls are only for upstairs in a house without hollowcore as you can support the weight of block work on joists. I’m sure developers are not doing hollowcore as standard but it’s certainly much more common and as I said virtually no one having their own house built is using anything but hollowcore for many years now. Hollowcore is so so much better.

Rural one of builds maybe.
Dublin estate builds won’t have block downstairs in general and certainly don’t have any of hollowcore.

imp1 · 07-08-2019 6:56pm

I test new build houses for noise insulation, between houses. Semi detached, terraced etc, by far the best performing party walls that I have tested are lightweight prefabricated partitions - they all come from the same supplier and are very high spec complex structures that work exceedingly well, so for minimum noise between houses timber frame from me - with the caveat that it is from a reputable supplier and not something concocted by an architect / engineer on the back of a fag packet.

awec · 07-08-2019 7:04pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Timber frame all the way, of course all internal walls should be insulated.

You will not believe how easy they are to heat, and how well they retain heat.

No issues whatsoever with noise travelling from one room to another, no issues hanging pictures(????)

Easier and quicker for all tradesmen to do their job.

Did I mention heating? If my youngest lad ran down the hall he'd heat the house for a few days.

Timber frame for the win.

I didn't say there were issues, just that it is not as straightforward as block, especially if you're hanging something heavy (like a mirror or a TV).

As I said though, very minor, especially nowadays with the whole range of plasterboard fixings you can get.

Agree on heat though! Modern houses it'll be harder to cool them down than heat them up!

iwillhtfu · 07-08-2019 7:17pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.

Even just driving past building sites I’m always looking in and you can see blocklayers working away on internal walls. If stud partitions are happening downstairs they are rare imo.

I’ve never seen internal walls being insulated either so not sure where the stud walls having more room for insulation comes into it.

It's actually the opposite to what you're saying in my experience and I've worked in and around dozens of housing developments. Internal block walls are generally for one off builds with poured floors etc.

Internal block walls are not necessarily superior when it comes to sound deadening and insulation for that matter actually I'm struggling to think of anyway they're far superior. Perhaps for hanging large tv's

07-08-2019 9:18pm

kceire wrote: »

Rural one of builds maybe.
Dublin estate builds won’t have block downstairs in general and certainly don’t have any of hollowcore.

I don’t see it tbh but I’m not in Dublin. Passed a big housing development outside Galway city this evening and took particular notice and all internal walls even upstairs were clearly block (which meant hollowcore also). Saw similar outside cork last week. As I said I used to work for a construction company during college I’ve a good knowledge of building and still keep an eye on builds as I pass on the road etc (I was never involved in a single house that had partition walls downstairs and I’d say 70% were hollowcore by the time I was moving on).

I’m very surprised things have got to the stage of partition walls downstairs makes me glad I’m building my own house as it will be blocks down stairs and upstairs with hollowcore.

meeeeh · 07-08-2019 9:57pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

I’m very surprised things have got to the stage of partition walls downstairs makes me glad I’m building my own house as it will be blocks down stairs and upstairs with hollowcore.

I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.

the_syco · 07-08-2019 11:02pm

Madeline Wet Wedding wrote: »

I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.

Am seeing it happen, in the Wonderful Barn area of Leixlip. There's a few houses up, with the cement foundations already laid for some of the others. I'll try to get pictures over the next few days of them.

skooterblue2 · 08-08-2019 3:27am

I would be more interested who built the house. Using Priory Hall as a prime example. Anyone who did their research and knew the individuals involved and their past history and how the government dealt with their past discrepancies and covered them up. My father when he was buying his house met his buddy in the bank and asked him if they knew his builder. the reply came back yes there was never a problem with him. This man was only a small builder but he delivered solid houses within reasonable time frames.

Gumbo · 08-08-2019 9:55am

meeeeh wrote: »

I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.

To be honest, even in the worse built TF house, this is one hell of a mistake to make by your mate. What size screws was your mate using?

Even if it had insulation, in the party wall or a TF, 100mm of rock wool was all that was required so a screw long enough to enter your mates neighbors house would still have went through.

Rows Grower · 08-08-2019 10:06am

meeeeh wrote: »

I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.

Sounds like something that would happen in a cartoon.

Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

meeeeh · 08-08-2019 10:19am

kceire wrote: »

To be honest, even in the worse built TF house, this is one hell of a mistake to make by your mate. What size screws was your mate using?

Even if it had insulation, in the party wall or a TF, 100mm of rock wool was all that was required so a screw long enough to enter your mates neighbors house would still have went through.

There was no screw as far as I know. He was sorting out something around skirting and the screwdriver got caught in something and poked through the wall. And no there was no insulation inbetween.

08-08-2019 10:33am

Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?

JDD · 08-08-2019 10:39am

I've bought a new build timber frame house in Dublin. Now, I know nothing about construction or hollowcore or stud walls or whatever, but I can say this:

The sound insulation is fantastic. We're a terraced house and we literally can't hear a thing from our neighbours' houses. The couple on one side of us had a baby six months ago and I was convinced that she must have moved in with her mother or something because I never ever heard the baby cry, but when we bumped into them at about the six week point they apologized for all the noise. The other side has a dog that we can hear barking in the back garden occasionally, but never ever hear it inside the house.

And the heat retention. Holy jaysus. We've had our first winter in the house and what I found amazing was that the temperature was equal in every room. We only had the heating set to 19 degrees and you could potter around the house all day in a t-shirt and never be cold. Our electricity bill has halved since we moved into the house from what we were paying for a smaller house built in the 90's before that. The only problem with the heat retention is that the house is pretty warm in the summer! We've had every door and window open for the past six weeks, but you know I'll take that as a complaint.

meeeeh · 08-08-2019 10:44am

ronoc wrote: »

Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?

I haven't got a clue but it shouldn't be that flimsy. it's not surprising then that a whole row of houses burned down in a few hours couple of years ago if that were the building standards.

Anyway my point is that stud walls downstairs are not some recent thing.

mulbot · 08-08-2019 4:15pm

JDD wrote: »

I've bought a new build timber frame house in Dublin. Now, I know nothing about construction or hollowcore or stud walls or whatever, but I can say this:

The sound insulation is fantastic. We're a terraced house and we literally can't hear a thing from our neighbours' houses. The couple on one side of us had a baby six months ago and I was convinced that she must have moved in with her mother or something because I never ever heard the baby cry, but when we bumped into them at about the six week point they apologized for all the noise. The other side has a dog that we can hear barking in the back garden occasionally, but never ever hear it inside the house.

And the heat retention. Holy jaysus. We've had our first winter in the house and what I found amazing was that the temperature was equal in every room. We only had the heating set to 19 degrees and you could potter around the house all day in a t-shirt and never be cold. Our electricity bill has halved since we moved into the house from what we were paying for a smaller house built in the 90's before that. The only problem with the heat retention is that the house is pretty warm in the summer! We've had every door and window open for the past six weeks, but you know I'll take that as a complaint.

But what about the noise throughout your own house. In my experience, even with new timber frame, the 8nternal walls are much noise than a block internal wall. Especially if doors bang, or knocking against them

JDD · 08-08-2019 4:24pm

Hmm, you make an interesting point there. I hadn't really considered sound insulation inside the house. If the doors are open, you can definitely hear the television from downstairs very clearly in the upstairs bedrooms, but the entire of downstairs has laminate flooring rather than carpet so sound does tend to carry upstairs. I don't think it's anything to do with the sound insulation between the ground and first floor or the insulation in the walls. If doors are closed you can't hear a thing. I still have to use a monitor for my kids at night time, as if the bedroom doors are closed I won't hear them at all if they are calling out/crying/sick/whatever, and there's only a bathroom between the two rooms.

sydthebeat · 08-08-2019 4:28pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

the problem is the people BUILDING the houses either dont know, or dont care, what the regulations are....

and successive governments have allowed systems where there is no oversight required to ensure compliance.

Gumbo · 08-08-2019 8:06pm

ronoc wrote: »

Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?

Block built party wall - no
TF Construction - yes

Gumbo · 08-08-2019 8:09pm

Rows Grower wrote: »

Sounds like something that would happen in a cartoon.

Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

Is say there was more at play here.
The fact that screw gun went through 2 layers of board on the OP’s side, across the 150mm void then through another 2 layers of board makes me think the OP’s mate was in digging around the party wall when they shouldn’t be.

The fact that there was no insulation is a worry though. It should have contained 100mm rockwool at the least from a 2005 build.

meeeeh · 09-08-2019 9:40am

kceire wrote: »

Is say there was more at play here.
The fact that screw gun went through 2 layers of board on the OP’s side, across the 150mm void then through another 2 layers of board makes me think the OP’s mate was in digging around the party wall when they shouldn’t be.

The fact that there was no insulation is a worry though. It should have contained 100mm rockwool at the least from a 2005 build.

I don't think there was not that much of a space between them. This was almost 15 years ago and those houses were known locally for poor build quality. I think some were built just around 2005. (I moved to Ireland in 2006 and tgey were there). And it was not a screw gun but a screwdriver. A hand operated thing that doesn't rotate or has a battery..

The guy is not my mate (I 'm a woman), it's someone I know and was employed by us. I have no skin in the game but the fact we were laughing at the time about poor quality of the build.

The only reason I know a little bit (and only a little bit) about building is because we built our own house and we visited the factory where they built houses and we saw how kit is put together packed with insulation, windows put in and so on. That's why I also know that not every timber frame is the same.

Timber frame vs. concrete built

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