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Timber frame vs. concrete built

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    No, well I’ve certainly never seen it anyway. All the internal walls downstairs will be block build.

    Yes hollowcore is for the underfloor upstairs and if you have hollowcore then the internal walls upstairs will be blockwork also.

    Stud walls are only for upstairs in a house without hollowcore as you can support the weight of block work on joists. I’m sure developers are not doing hollowcore as standard but it’s certainly much more common and as I said virtually no one having their own house built is using anything but hollowcore for many years now. Hollowcore is so so much better.

    Rural one of builds maybe.
    Dublin estate builds won’t have block downstairs in general and certainly don’t have any of hollowcore.


  • Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭ imp1


    I test new build houses for noise insulation, between houses. Semi detached, terraced etc, by far the best performing party walls that I have tested are lightweight prefabricated partitions - they all come from the same supplier and are very high spec complex structures that work exceedingly well, so for minimum noise between houses timber frame from me - with the caveat that it is from a reputable supplier and not something concocted by an architect / engineer on the back of a fag packet.


  • Administrators Posts: 50,517 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ awec


    Timber frame all the way, of course all internal walls should be insulated.

    You will not believe how easy they are to heat, and how well they retain heat.

    No issues whatsoever with noise travelling from one room to another, no issues hanging pictures(????)

    Easier and quicker for all tradesmen to do their job.

    Did I mention heating? If my youngest lad ran down the hall he'd heat the house for a few days.

    Timber frame for the win.

    I didn't say there were issues, just that it is not as straightforward as block, especially if you're hanging something heavy (like a mirror or a TV).

    As I said though, very minor, especially nowadays with the whole range of plasterboard fixings you can get.

    Agree on heat though! Modern houses it'll be harder to cool them down than heat them up!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭ iwillhtfu


    I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.

    Even just driving past building sites I’m always looking in and you can see blocklayers working away on internal walls. If stud partitions are happening downstairs they are rare imo.

    I’ve never seen internal walls being insulated either so not sure where the stud walls having more room for insulation comes into it.

    It's actually the opposite to what you're saying in my experience and I've worked in and around dozens of housing developments. Internal block walls are generally for one off builds with poured floors etc.

    Internal block walls are not necessarily superior when it comes to sound deadening and insulation for that matter actually I'm struggling to think of anyway they're far superior. Perhaps for hanging large tv's :D


  • Posts: 0 Roy Famous Dart


    kceire wrote: »
    Rural one of builds maybe.
    Dublin estate builds won’t have block downstairs in general and certainly don’t have any of hollowcore.

    I don’t see it tbh but I’m not in Dublin. Passed a big housing development outside Galway city this evening and took particular notice and all internal walls even upstairs were clearly block (which meant hollowcore also). Saw similar outside cork last week. As I said I used to work for a construction company during college I’ve a good knowledge of building and still keep an eye on builds as I pass on the road etc (I was never involved in a single house that had partition walls downstairs and I’d say 70% were hollowcore by the time I was moving on).

    I’m very surprised things have got to the stage of partition walls downstairs makes me glad I’m building my own house as it will be blocks down stairs and upstairs with hollowcore.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    I’m very surprised things have got to the stage of partition walls downstairs makes me glad I’m building my own house as it will be blocks down stairs and upstairs with hollowcore.

    I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

    Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,293 ✭✭✭✭ the_syco


    I’ve never seen it (and I worked in construction for a number of years a few years back). I’d also see it’s a corner cutting if it is happening, block walls are far superior.
    Am seeing it happen, in the Wonderful Barn area of Leixlip. There's a few houses up, with the cement foundations already laid for some of the others. I'll try to get pictures over the next few days of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭ skooterblue2


    I would be more interested who built the house. Using Priory Hall as a prime example. Anyone who did their research and knew the individuals involved and their past history and how the government dealt with their past discrepancies and covered them up. My father when he was buying his house met his buddy in the bank and asked him if they knew his builder. the reply came back yes there was never a problem with him. This man was only a small builder but he delivered solid houses within reasonable time frames.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

    Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.

    To be honest, even in the worse built TF house, this is one hell of a mistake to make by your mate. What size screws was your mate using?

    Even if it had insulation, in the party wall or a TF, 100mm of rock wool was all that was required so a screw long enough to enter your mates neighbors house would still have went through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,801 ✭✭✭ Rows Grower


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I know someone who was fixing something around the fireplace and put the screwdriver through the wall and into neighbour's sitting room. There wasn't any insulation between the walls. The house was built around 2005.

    Edit: post was complete mess so amended it for clarity.

    Sounds like something that would happen in a cartoon.

    Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    kceire wrote: »
    To be honest, even in the worse built TF house, this is one hell of a mistake to make by your mate. What size screws was your mate using?

    Even if it had insulation, in the party wall or a TF, 100mm of rock wool was all that was required so a screw long enough to enter your mates neighbors house would still have went through.
    There was no screw as far as I know. He was sorting out something around skirting and the screwdriver got caught in something and poked through the wall. And no there was no insulation inbetween.


  • Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭ JDD


    I've bought a new build timber frame house in Dublin. Now, I know nothing about construction or hollowcore or stud walls or whatever, but I can say this:

    The sound insulation is fantastic. We're a terraced house and we literally can't hear a thing from our neighbours' houses. The couple on one side of us had a baby six months ago and I was convinced that she must have moved in with her mother or something because I never ever heard the baby cry, but when we bumped into them at about the six week point they apologized for all the noise. The other side has a dog that we can hear barking in the back garden occasionally, but never ever hear it inside the house.

    And the heat retention. Holy jaysus. We've had our first winter in the house and what I found amazing was that the temperature was equal in every room. We only had the heating set to 19 degrees and you could potter around the house all day in a t-shirt and never be cold. Our electricity bill has halved since we moved into the house from what we were paying for a smaller house built in the 90's before that. The only problem with the heat retention is that the house is pretty warm in the summer! We've had every door and window open for the past six weeks, but you know I'll take that as a complaint.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    ronoc wrote: »
    Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?

    I haven't got a clue but it shouldn't be that flimsy. it's not surprising then that a whole row of houses burned down in a few hours couple of years ago if that were the building standards.

    Anyway my point is that stud walls downstairs are not some recent thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭ mulbot


    JDD wrote: »
    I've bought a new build timber frame house in Dublin. Now, I know nothing about construction or hollowcore or stud walls or whatever, but I can say this:

    The sound insulation is fantastic. We're a terraced house and we literally can't hear a thing from our neighbours' houses. The couple on one side of us had a baby six months ago and I was convinced that she must have moved in with her mother or something because I never ever heard the baby cry, but when we bumped into them at about the six week point they apologized for all the noise. The other side has a dog that we can hear barking in the back garden occasionally, but never ever hear it inside the house.

    And the heat retention. Holy jaysus. We've had our first winter in the house and what I found amazing was that the temperature was equal in every room. We only had the heating set to 19 degrees and you could potter around the house all day in a t-shirt and never be cold. Our electricity bill has halved since we moved into the house from what we were paying for a smaller house built in the 90's before that. The only problem with the heat retention is that the house is pretty warm in the summer! We've had every door and window open for the past six weeks, but you know I'll take that as a complaint.
    But what about the noise throughout your own house. In my experience, even with new timber frame, the 8nternal walls are much noise than a block internal wall. Especially if doors bang, or knocking against them


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭ JDD


    Hmm, you make an interesting point there. I hadn't really considered sound insulation inside the house. If the doors are open, you can definitely hear the television from downstairs very clearly in the upstairs bedrooms, but the entire of downstairs has laminate flooring rather than carpet so sound does tend to carry upstairs. I don't think it's anything to do with the sound insulation between the ground and first floor or the insulation in the walls. If doors are closed you can't hear a thing. I still have to use a monitor for my kids at night time, as if the bedroom doors are closed I won't hear them at all if they are calling out/crying/sick/whatever, and there's only a bathroom between the two rooms.


  • Subscribers Posts: 37,152 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

    the problem is the people BUILDING the houses either dont know, or dont care, what the regulations are....

    and successive governments have allowed systems where there is no oversight required to ensure compliance.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    ronoc wrote: »
    Is there a requirement for insulation between units in a semi d?





    Block built party wall - no
    TF Construction - yes


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Sounds like something that would happen in a cartoon.

    Where are all the posters that have all the building rules and regulations learned off by heart when you need them?

    Is say there was more at play here.
    The fact that screw gun went through 2 layers of board on the OP’s side, across the 150mm void then through another 2 layers of board makes me think the OP’s mate was in digging around the party wall when they shouldn’t be.


    The fact that there was no insulation is a worry though. It should have contained 100mm rockwool at the least from a 2005 build.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    kceire wrote: »
    Is say there was more at play here.
    The fact that screw gun went through 2 layers of board on the OP’s side, across the 150mm void then through another 2 layers of board makes me think the OP’s mate was in digging around the party wall when they shouldn’t be.


    The fact that there was no insulation is a worry though. It should have contained 100mm rockwool at the least from a 2005 build.

    I don't think there was not that much of a space between them. This was almost 15 years ago and those houses were known locally for poor build quality. I think some were built just around 2005. (I moved to Ireland in 2006 and tgey were there). And it was not a screw gun but a screwdriver. A hand operated thing that doesn't rotate or has a battery..

    The guy is not my mate (I 'm a woman), it's someone I know and was employed by us. I have no skin in the game but the fact we were laughing at the time about poor quality of the build.

    The only reason I know a little bit (and only a little bit) about building is because we built our own house and we visited the factory where they built houses and we saw how kit is put together packed with insulation, windows put in and so on. That's why I also know that not every timber frame is the same.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭ bazwraf


    awec wrote: »

    The only real annoyance for me is you've to take more care when hanging things on the wall, but it's minor.
    awec wrote: »
    I didn't say there were issues, just that it is not as straightforward as block, especially if you're hanging something heavy (like a mirror or a TV).

    My wife and I have bought a timber frame house that is due to be ready in December.
    Can anyone shed more light on the issues with hanging things on the walls.
    For example, we might want to hang a tv off of a wall in a room, and also put up paintings, photos, etc.
    Is it a simple case of tapping against the wall to find a beam before getting out the hammer?
    I think that the thing that gets screwed into the wall for an arm for supporting a tv is usually 4 or 5 inches wide. Are the beams in a stud wall that big?


  • Administrators Posts: 50,517 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ awec


    bazwraf wrote: »
    My wife and I have bought a timber frame house that is due to be ready in December.
    Can anyone shed more light on the issues with hanging things on the walls.
    For example, we might want to hang a tv off of a wall in a room, and also put up paintings, photos, etc.
    Is it a simple case of tapping against the wall to find a beam before getting out the hammer?
    I think that the thing that gets screwed into the wall for an arm for supporting a tv is usually 4 or 5 inches wide. Are the beams in a stud wall that big?

    You won't detect studs by tapping. You can buy stud detector devices, that you move across the wall and they beep when they go over a stud. Usually they'll also have functions to detect pipes and live electrical cabling, so it's worth getting one if your house has stud walls.

    For hanging heavier items, like TVs or large mirrors, ideally you'd find the studs and screw into those. But it's not always possible because the studs might not be in the location you need, or you might be able to hit 1 or 2 studs, but you need 4 or 6 fixings.

    In which case, you can get special plasterboard fixings. Woodies etc sell them. There is a variety of them for all different weights of items. This will let you fix to the wall but not have to hit a stud.


  • Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bazwraf wrote: »
    My wife and I have bought a timber frame house that is due to be ready in December.
    Can anyone shed more light on the issues with hanging things on the walls.
    For example, we might want to hang a tv off of a wall in a room, and also put up paintings, photos, etc.
    Is it a simple case of tapping against the wall to find a beam before getting out the hammer?
    I think that the thing that gets screwed into the wall for an arm for supporting a tv is usually 4 or 5 inches wide. Are the beams in a stud wall that big?

    You should check with your builder. They may not be using timber stud partitions. I have metal stud partitions in mine which apparently require opening the wall up to mount a heavy TV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 M1andM2


    Hello,

    I am trying to narrow down the selection of Timber Frame companies and was wondering if there was any recommendations since? Please PM any suggestions, any info would be much appreciated.

    Thank you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,913 ✭✭✭✭ Cuddlesworth


    Get a piece of ply across studs if its a really heavy TV and there are no studs near the mount, then use hollow wall anchors with the setting tool through the ply and plasterboard. If it's not a huge TV(thinking like 70+ now days), a couple of bigger hollow anchors will hold it anyway.

    Sound proofing is a seriously complex topic, sound is quite varied in itself so there is no one stop solution to fix any issue. In theory modern houses should be better at stopping most higher frequency sound due to their airtightness but worse at stopping lower frequencies due to less mass in the wood and insulation compared to a solid block wall. But again there are ways to reduce or increase that, so it's a moot point really.



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