Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 31-07-2019 07:51PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is Cummings work I imagine. Everyone on song.

Outdated publications who never realized that Britain is simply a middling state in today's world. This won't make a difference to anyone. The Tory Brexiters will love it while anyone who is anti-Brexit just has their view reinforced that little bit more.

LionelNashe wrote: »

Do you all reckon that the following could happen:

Parliament won't let Boris do a no-deal Brexit, so he calls an election, and the parliament that is returned has a majority of hard-brexiters (made up of Tories and Brexit Party), and they then vote to leave without a deal.

I think Parliament will send Johnson to Brussels to request an extension so they can hold either a GE or a People's Vote. Failing that, they'll revoke Article 50. Parliament really does not want no deal.

briany · 31-07-2019 07:52PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The same Eastern Europeans who have full rights regarding living and working in Ireland who will face no obstacles crossing the border in the scenario posed by eagle eye?

Yes. Couple of things: I think Brexiters don't believe anywhere near the numbers will come that route, and it is a longer, more complicated route, I suppose. Also, I think they feel the UK will have more powers to deport such people when found (not that the UK didn't already have these powers in many cases).

Strazdas · 31-07-2019 07:56PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Former editor of the Sun more than hinting at an organised press campaign against Ireland and suggests it will ramp up further.

https://twitter.com/davidyelland/status/1156607348477169664

This is Cummings work I imagine. Everyone on song.

He makes the interesting point that the hard right press are attempting to deflect from their own involvement in the Brexit fiasco.

It would be interesting to hear the dynamics behind this : who has authorised the anti-Irish campaign, how involved are Cummings and Johnson, what do they hope to achieve by this etc

Strazdas · 31-07-2019 08:01PM

briany wrote: »

Yes. Couple of things: I think Brexiters don't believe anywhere near the numbers will come that route, and it is a longer, more complicated route, I suppose. Also, I think they feel the UK will have more powers to deport such people when found (not that the UK didn't already have these powers in many cases).

Don't forget Eastern European people will be perfectly free to travel to UK airports even after No Deal. Freedom of movement laws refer only to the right to work : there would be no need for such people to enter Britain via the ROI (waste of a plane ticket)

Stop moaning ffs · 31-07-2019 08:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone got a link to Farage suggesting a border poll?

He didn’t suggest it. He held a phone in on it on his show on LBC. You can listen back to it on the LBC app. Might not be up til tomorrow

Capt'n Midnight · 31-07-2019 08:16PM

trashcan wrote: »

What’s clear from the BBC interview this morning is that the journalists simply don’t seem well enough informed to call them on it. All the interviewer this morning was really interested in was whether they were going to ask Boris for more money.

They should watch the video clip here to see the issues
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49179805

Shipyard protesters joined with Irish language group An Dream Dearg for a bi-lingual demonstration. Can you imagine that happening a few years ago ? Times they are a changing.

Sábháil ar gclós !

There were also protests from other groups over the Irish language, Brexit and legacy. And the Ballymurphy Massacre.

RHI hasn't gone away either

Some good news for the North, a lot of people will sleep sounder tonight.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49172186

Air France is to buy 60 Airbus A220s, the wings of which are made in Northern Ireland.

The airline has also taken options which could see its order rise to 120.

Laois_Man · 31-07-2019 08:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone got a link to Farage suggesting a border poll?

It was all the usual......

ignorant statements about Sinn Fein

ignorant statements about what a border poll is and the fact that the Republic actually have to agree

And swatting away the hypocrisy of campaigning for "taking back control" and then saying they should leave a 300+ mile border open by ranting on about the two sides of the border having a different currency, different VAT and other tax rates, etc. and also how WTO allows no border in places of political sensitivity (he's said that a few times, I have yet to find it in any documentation)

briany · 31-07-2019 08:28PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Don't forget Eastern European people will be perfectly free to travel to UK airports even after No Deal. Freedom of movement laws refer only to the right to work : there would be no need for such people to enter Britain via the ROI (waste of a plane ticket)

Less reason to be worried about coming in via the unguarded NI border, if they're just going to take a direct flight. I think Brexiteers can be pretty easily convinced that Eastern Europeans who are rich enough to take a short holiday in the UK are perfectly fine, since they're contributing to the economy in a lawful way. They can also be convinced that the ones who intend on sticking around to pick spuds for 4p an hour or whatever will be swiftly dealt with in this new UK that will be a cold(er) house for all the undocumented.

But even then, the feeling I get is that when Brexiteers say Eastern European, they are mainly referring to Roma. That's first on the list under that umbrella.

An Claidheamh · 31-07-2019 08:29PM

Any chance RTÉ could get Bruce Arnold on air seeing as he lives in Ireland?

Also, there was some dope on Liveline today, an English man who lives here, claiming border is "Ireland’s problem" - callers had to remind him it's all their doing.

British generally don't integrate well to other cultures á la Spain, seems they are way too loyal to their backward media and its propaganda machine.

Kermit.de.frog · 31-07-2019 08:32PM

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

abff · 31-07-2019 08:33PM

I think you may need to sign in to access the article. I don't think I can reproduce it in full because of copyright, but the following extracts give an idea of the general flavour.

This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to the same independence and freedom.

This is painful and embarrassing stuff.

...

These uncertain fools have now led Ireland to be engulfed in a crisis as Boris Johnson, the new Prime Minister, seeks to lead Britain out of the EU either before or after an election.

Yet again we face a crisis of democracy, with little Ireland and the huge EU refusing to recognise the democratic decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The ridiculous country in which I live is helping Europe in this abuse.

Bruce Arnold

This stinks on so many levels.

An Claidheamh · 31-07-2019 08:34PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

He didn’t suggest it. He held a phone in on it on his show on LBC. You can listen back to it on the LBC app. Might not be up til tomorrow

Wonder if the same great LBC public who moan about a border poll are the same ones citing Irish freedom and independence as reasons why 'Éire' should not be in a customs union.

Big mistake to take any Brexiteer seriously.

Right now, Britain is not a serious country, their word, landbridge, international agreements cannot be taken seriously - as much as we can expect North Korea

A Dub in Glasgo · 31-07-2019 08:37PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Scotland had the opportunity in 2014 and said no. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

https://twitter.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?lang=en

imagehost

An Claidheamh · 31-07-2019 08:40PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

Here here, remember the Sindo is the newspaper of FF/FG and controlled by Denis O'Brien, will be interesting if there is any fallout - Harris does what he's told after all.

Was actually wondering whether Myers will use this as a way to have the British remember he loves them despite the fact he's an anti-Semite...

An Claidheamh · 31-07-2019 08:44PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

On another note, are the Daily Telegraph that dim that they think Irish people read their newspaper?

Or just content on riling up their echo chamber while their surroundings fall apart?
Delusional I suppose is the word.

FrancieBrady · 31-07-2019 08:49PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

Pity it is Friday's edition Ellis is in, we could play a drinking game based on every time she mentions SF or a shinner. Double helpings if she manages to shoehorn Mairia Cahill in.

briany · 31-07-2019 08:50PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

British generally don't integrate well to other cultures á la Spain, seems they are way too loyal to their backward media and its propaganda machine.

I think what has a lot to do with this is that English is pretty much the world lingua-franca, and the Anglosphere is the closest thing we have to a world culture. There is something of an expectation that you'll always be able to find someone who can speak English, if only a few words, wherever you go, so learning the local lingo isn't as high a priority. I'm not sure if Irish emigrants to Spain aren't as bad as the British for this sort of mentality. Maybe the Irish don't have the same arrogant edge. I'd be interested to see some figures on it to know one way or the other.

Water John · 31-07-2019 08:51PM

Simply trying to prove to the base that the Irish are not of one voice. So get a few loopers to write oped pieces.

lawred2 · 31-07-2019 08:55PM

abff wrote: »

I think you may need to sign in to access the article. I don't think I can reproduce it in full because of copyright, but the following extracts give an idea of the general flavour.

This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to the same independence and freedom.

This is painful and embarrassing stuff.

...

These uncertain fools have now led Ireland to be engulfed in a crisis as Boris Johnson, the new Prime Minister, seeks to lead Britain out of the EU either before or after an election.

Yet again we face a crisis of democracy, with little Ireland and the huge EU refusing to recognise the democratic decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The ridiculous country in which I live is helping Europe in this abuse.

Bruce Arnold

This stinks on so many levels.

Paper never refused ink. I wouldn't pay too much attention.

I would ask why the man hasn't gone 'home' yet though? 60 years living here and this is seemingly the low regard he holds for where he lives...

One would have to conclude that it mustn't be all that bad for him.

Or is it just that he'll write whatever bile he asked to write for a few shilling?

Whatever it is... A pathetic individual.

eagle eye · 31-07-2019 09:05PM

ancapailldorcha wrote:

What would be the point of Brexit then? There'd be no screening people entering Northern Ireland. There'd be no need for other countries to negotiate a trade deal as they can just export across the border with no problems. The Irish customs officers won't be bothering to check, that's for sure.

How does giving up so much control do the UK any good? And that's before we get to the violation of WTO rules that leaving the border unstaffed would constitute. Who wants to negotiate with a capricious rule breaker?

They'll do checks for entry to Great Britain.
NI is a can of worms and Johnson will just ignore it as much as he can.

Kermit.de.frog · 31-07-2019 09:06PM

The onslaught continues - it's not just opinion pieces

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/31/irish-pm-accused-project-fear-mark-2-row-no-deal-brexit/

reslfj · 31-07-2019 09:08PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I wonder will we see anyone with a head of sense realising that if there isn’t a border in place, or maybe even if there is, NI will be a backdoor for illegal immigrants using Ireland to scoot through over to the UK?

They never had any plans to police the border for immigrants because of the CTA.

Changing controls of people at the borders has always been very little but propaganda slogans.

The UK external borders or rather the CTA external borders has long since had full people control.

All with a passport from most developed countries (incl all EU/EEA countries) can enter the CTA via a customs entry point (a harbour/airport) and stay within the CTA for a period (pt. 90 days) This has been so for very many years.

Borders can only be used to check people without papers and catch wanted people (e.g. via Europol databases).

FoM in its EU flavour not much about passing borders, but it's mostly about a permanent home and a job in another EU member state. It is also about commuting home-job across a border.
For EU/EEA/Swiss citizens permanent stay and/or (not)working can only be controlled at their UK workplaces and via their landlords - not at the border.

The RoI-NI border backstop is only about control of standards, rules and regulations for goods. If no FTA is agreed tariffs may also have to be paid.

Lars

PS!
I did enter the UK once at Heathrow in the early 1980's on

a hotel reservation,
a return ticket and
my drivers license (I forgot my passport).

That was, however, great English flexibility and nothing like the regular procedure.

Enzokk · 31-07-2019 09:09PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-brexit-side-deals-no-deal_uk_5d41922ee4b0db8affb16033

The latest on UK governments strategy. Unreal. They continue to try and split the EU and are now looking for side deals.

So the plan is to leave with no-deal and then to wait for the damage to hit European countries and for those countries to pressure the EU to make a deal with the UK. I see one flaw in that plan, what will happen in the UK at the same time? Does it not occur to anyone that they will suffer more in the same time and will be even more desperate to make a deal?

asteroids over berlin · 31-07-2019 09:20PM

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

Enzokk · 31-07-2019 09:24PM

Ben Done wrote: »

I love this point at the end of Verhofstat"s Guardian piece:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/boris-johnson-eu-no-deal-brexit-uk-government-backstop?

The grownups is starting to talk now to the petulant child. He will still kick and scream, but in the end you hope he will calm down and sense will prevail.

I do like this paragraph from Verhofstadt,

Despite the irresponsible language of the self-styled disrupters now at the heart of the British government, it is clear that Britain’s prosperity and European security are intertwined. Britain’s rightful place lies at the heart of the European project, fighting for a rules-based liberal world order. Brexit is more than a tragedy – it is a waste of all of our time, in an era when China and the US are fighting for global hegemony and the climate crisis threatens our very existence.

The invitation is still there for the UK to participate in the EU and to make the world a better place for all of us in these troubling times we face.

briany · 31-07-2019 09:25PM

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

The tactic has to be that you'd pump money into some Eurosceptic groups and individuals within Ireland in order to make FG/FF feel like pursuing the current stance re:Brexit will hurt rather than help their electoral chances. Expect the trolls to be working overtime.

Mr.Wemmick · 31-07-2019 09:29PM

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

The more pressure they put on Ireland and the EU, the sooner it'll backfire.

They are coming across as complete and utter fools. No where to go and no ideas left other than to pile on the crap to see if something gives. Bless.

reslfj · 31-07-2019 09:31PM

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it.

The non-renegotiation of the WA is not a Dublin decision but an all EU27 decision. It is deep down all EU27 members protection of the entire SM which is the star of the EU.

Ireland will have much support from the other EU27 members for genuine Irish interests. But expect very little EU willingness to follow requests from a bullied or scared Ireland. Ireland just doesn't call the shots itself.

Lars

FrancieBrady · 31-07-2019 09:31PM

Enzokk wrote: »

The grownups is starting to talk now to the petulant child. He will still kick and scream, but in the end you hope he will calm down and sense will prevail.

I do like this paragraph from Verhofstadt,

The invitation is still there for the UK to participate in the EU and to make the world a better place for all of us in these troubling times we face.

Bruce Arnold is one of a long line of those who speak of Britain's love of independence and democracy, it is basically lip service to it and the sad thing is, he probably believes it too. Johnson is a more boisterous version of Arnold and Verhofstadt is not stupid, he knows well how to deal with that chat and it is not to rise to it or tell them the truth.
Take a leaf out of his playbook Leo, don't rise to the bait and talk louder about independence and democracy.

KildareP · 31-07-2019 09:42PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The onslaught continues - it's not just opinion pieces

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/31/irish-pm-accused-project-fear-mark-2-row-no-deal-brexit/

Seeing more sensible comments this time amongst the usual bile.

I think their plan is ultimately misplaced and going to backfire, if it is intended to invoke a response this side of the Irish Sea, it is more likely to invoke a hardened stance against the British, even amongst those who don't follow Brexit, than to turn us against the government.

If it is intended for domestic consumption well what will it matter really come Oct 31st.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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