Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Ultimate Seduction · 30-07-2019 06:59PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

That's why I've a lot of time for Micheal Martin.

He could have stirred the pot a lot more over the last 18 months but has recognized the best interests of the country in terms of Brexit necessitated avoiding a GE.

That will change but it's been in stark contrast to the shadow PM's behavior in the UK.

Timmy had some sort of a brain freeze moment this morning.

Absolute bull****!

Martin has been delaying pulling the rug and causing an election until the polls tell him he has a chance of winning!

Obviously. Why would he cause an election if he wasn't going to win?

Joe_ Public · 30-07-2019 07:01PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's pretty clear that BoJo didn't even read the text of the last extension..
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-extension-text/text-eu-agreement-to-extend-brexit-idUSKCN1RN01E

4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement, and that any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement and must not hamper its implementation.

5. The European Council stresses that such an extension cannot be used to start negotiations on the future relationship. However, if the position of the United Kingdom were to evolve, the European Council is prepared to reconsider the Political Declaration on the future relationship in accordance with the positions and principles stated in its guidelines and statements, including as regards the territorial scope of the future relationship.

The entire thrust of BoJo and the Tories is either admitting they aren't reading anything or that agreements they sign don't actually mean what they say.

Very strong chance of that i would say. Also, I'd love to ask Johnson why, if it is so obviously anti-democratic for some reason, he still voted for the backstop back in march.

abff · 30-07-2019 07:03PM

I was impressed with the succinct way the Welsh First Minister summed up his thoughts on BJ on this evening's 6 o'clock news on the BBC.

"I want to impress on the Prime Minister that a campaign of bluff and bluster and a belief that if we simply indulge ourselves in a vacuous sense of optimism, that's not going to get us through this."

I couldn't have put it better myself!

Professor Moriarty · 30-07-2019 07:03PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

With optimism and belief?

More detail please.

A few days ago, Johnson was asked what his economic philosophy is. His one word answer: "Boosterism".

Dictionary.com defines boosterism as: the action or policy of enthusiastically promoting something, as a city, product, or way of life.

So Johnson's economic philosophy is based on enthusiastic promotion. Nothing to do with rich/poor, imports/exports, tax/spending, rural/urban, et cetera. Just enthusiastic promotion.

Water John · 30-07-2019 07:06PM

Boosterism is BS by another name.
Brickster has undying faith in the great wisdom of Johnson and Raab. Sorry, I'm not joining that club.

listermint · 30-07-2019 07:12PM

brickster69 wrote: »

As i say, i am not in a position to know what the UK Governments plans are.

Ah but you've all the wisdom to pronounce a dead WA.

What you may have failed to see is that the EU quite frankly don't care anymore. They've got over it.

They don't care , I don't care and most of the electorate are over it too even on the continent.

Adiós ...

Infini · 30-07-2019 07:25PM

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Obviously. Why would he cause an election if he wasn't going to win?

It's all up in the air IF there is an election the most likely reason being to try and flush the DUP turd down the toilet of course but this requires Labour to agree to one to begin with, there's no guarantee the Tories will even win it but for Boris is may be a win win situation even if they dont win an Election as they arent the one's in charge if theres an exit on the 31st and if they do they potentially get rid of the DUP and can accept the backstop by reverting to the NI backstop only.

For labour if they can get the right message out they can either get a 2nd referendum as part of an agreement with the SNP/Lib dems or get a much softer brexit but at least without Tory stupidity.

Still right now if the Tories remain in charge it will likely be a crash out come Oct 31st with all the consequences of their stupidity but no matter what they say the message from out side will be the same, they choose this we didnt and this is the consequences of their actions not punishment. They'll be in an even worse position after it as well and in no position to reject anything. Likely will be the beginning of the end of the UK too as they'll be unlikely to survive the fallout more than a decade.

Ultimate Seduction · 30-07-2019 07:35PM

Infini wrote: »

It's all up in the air IF there is an election the most likely reason being to try and flush the DUP turd down the toilet of course but this requires Labour to agree to one to begin with, there's no guarantee the Tories will even win it but for Boris is may be a win win situation even if they dont win an Election as they arent the one's in charge if theres an exit on the 31st and if they do they potentially get rid of the DUP and can accept the backstop by reverting to the NI backstop only.

For labour if they can get the right message out they can either get a 2nd referendum as part of an agreement with the SNP/Lib dems or get a much softer brexit but at least without Tory stupidity.

Still right now if the Tories remain in charge it will likely be a crash out come Oct 31st with all the consequences of their stupidity but no matter what they say the message from out side will be the same, they choose this we didnt and this is the consequences of their actions not punishment. They'll be in an even worse position after it as well and in no position to reject anything. Likely will be the beginning of the end of the UK too as they'll be unlikely to survive the fallout more than a decade.

That was in reply to someone complaining Michael Martin wouldn't call an election because he won't win.

20silkcut · 30-07-2019 07:38PM

The policy of putting pressure on Varadkar is totally futile when he has the full backing of the EU 27 behind him.
They should be putting the pressure on Brussels.
But they know they are at nothing there.
Therefore they are at nothing.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2019 07:40PM

FPTP has really led UK to this pass. I know there was a ref about it a few years ago which was rejected. I doubt anyone was clued in enough to realise the implications, apologies if that sounds condescending, but there we are.

No wonder UK folk have little interest in politics if a red, blue, or rarely a LD rosette can be elected with absolutely no work involved in a safe seat. That is the reality.

Why would anyone bother with political information if the outcome is a fait accompli?

And they talk about the democratic will of the people all the time, and now we have mutterings about an undemocratic backstop. It is subliminal marketing.

Corbyn might be ok, I don't think he is, but if he is, he needs to get off the hurler in the ditch mentality (which will mean nothing to UK) and decide on something that he is in favour of.

Anyway, I doubt UK will go for No Deal myself. Well I suppose I hope they don't. They all know it will be a disaster. Brinkmanship is the order of the day here now. EU will hold firm. So what is left?

Professor Moriarty · 30-07-2019 07:44PM

20silkcut wrote: »

The policy of putting pressure on Varadkar is totally futile when he has the full backing of the EU 27 behind him.
They should be putting the pressure on Brussels.
But they know they are at nothing there.
Therefore they are at nothing.

I think Johnson sees himself as the British lion stalking a herd of buffalo trying to pick off the smallest and stampeding the herd. In reality, he's a headless chicken.

abff · 30-07-2019 07:46PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Brinkmanship is the order of the day here now. EU will hold firm. So what is left?

So what it really boils down to is a game of 'who blinks first'? Great way to decide matters of great importance!

Joe_ Public · 30-07-2019 07:49PM

abff wrote: »

So what it really boils down to is a game of 'who blinks first'? Great way to decide matters of great importance!

Thats not how i'd see it. This isnt a game of chicken in high speed sportscars, the UK are not hurtling down the motorway with the EU coming at high speed straight at them, they're hurtling down the motorway straight to a cliff edge with nothing but a sharp drop ahead of them. EU is looking on, bemused like everybody else.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2019 07:51PM

reslfj wrote: »

"all these deals" = EU's planned unitaerally actions the help (only) EU citizens and companies.

Maybe we - in the EU27 - should not mitigate anything at all post Brexit date. If the UK refuses to understand, people in the UK better feel everything hard and full - from day 1.

I.E. No UK long haul lorries within the EU27, no flights to/from the EU27 , no EURATOM, no radioactive medicine, no..., no ...

From Brexit day 1

Lars

Haven't you forgotten the reason the EU will allow those actions is to reduce the impact of Brexit on EU citizens.

The EU is cherry picking

For example the UK financial sector is relying on the EU recognising equivalence so they can keep access to EU markets. That just got blown out of the water.

EU has confirmed that equivalence doesn't guarantee access, and it can be withdrawn at any time. Like the above concessions.

EU signals tighter financial market access after Brexit

European Commission said countries outside the bloc would not necessarily have market access even if their rules were equivalent.
...
British regulators want new rules to make the system more transparent and predictable, given equivalence status can be withdrawn with 30 days notice.
...
Banks in the EU will no longer be able to use credit ratings from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada and Singapore because the five countries refused to match new EU rules in the sector.

Sam Russell · 30-07-2019 07:51PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

FPTP has really led UK to this pass. I know there was a ref about it a few years ago which was rejected. I doubt anyone was clued in enough to realise the implications, apologies if that sounds condescending, but there we are.

No wonder UK folk have little interest in politics if a red, blue, or rarely a LD rosette can be elected with absolutely no work involved in a safe seat. That is the reality.

Why would anyone bother with political information if the outcome is a fait accompli?

And they talk about the democratic will of the people all the time, and now we have mutterings about an undemocratic backstop. It is subliminal marketing.

Corbyn might be ok, I don't think he is, but if he is, he needs to get off the hurler in the ditch mentality (which will mean nothing to UK) and decide on something that he is in favour of.

Anyway, I doubt UK will go for No Deal myself. Well I suppose I hope they don't. They all know it will be a disaster. Brinkmanship is the order of the day here now. EU will hold firm. So what is left?

The referendum was a bit of a swizz in that the vote was not on the FPTP but on an 'alternative vote' scheme which was not much better. The idea (as far as I can make out) was a 1, 2 system of proportional voting. You got to vote for your preferred candidate, and then if that one did not succeed, then your second choice would be transferred. A bastardised system that just could not work and would be just as undemocratic, except in a three horse race.

The UK have exactly the same choice now as they had in March - WA, No Deal, or revoke. They chose to kick the can, but in October that may not be available.

The only undemocratic element in this sorry mess is the original referendum which was manipulated illegally by dark forces.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2019 07:54PM

abff wrote: »

So what it really boils down to is a game of 'who blinks first'? Great way to decide matters of great importance!

It is looking that way though.

lawred2 · 30-07-2019 07:55PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's pretty clear that BoJo didn't even read the text of the last extension..
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-extension-text/text-eu-agreement-to-extend-brexit-idUSKCN1RN01E

4. The European Council reiterates that there can be no opening of the Withdrawal Agreement, and that any unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement and must not hamper its implementation.

5. The European Council stresses that such an extension cannot be used to start negotiations on the future relationship. However, if the position of the United Kingdom were to evolve, the European Council is prepared to reconsider the Political Declaration on the future relationship in accordance with the positions and principles stated in its guidelines and statements, including as regards the territorial scope of the future relationship.

The entire thrust of BoJo and the Tories is either admitting they aren't reading anything or that agreements they sign don't actually mean what they say.

Case of both I'd expect

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2019 07:58PM

ambro25 wrote: »

British Gammons may soften, after they realise that the world's entire supply of viagra is manufactured in Ireland

:pac:

Bet they won't look too surprised when they find out where the world's entire supply of Botox comes from

KildareP · 30-07-2019 07:58PM

abff wrote: »

So what it really boils down to is a game of 'who blinks first'? Great way to decide matters of great importance!

The EU have outlined what they are prepared to offer the UK in return for what the UK have said they are prepared to offer the EU upon exiting.

The UK does not like what the EU is prepared to offer.

The UK wants the EU to change what it is prepared to offer but the UK itself is not prepared to change anything it is willing to offer from its side.

There's no blinking game from the EU side - it's a take it or leave it approach, unless you're prepared to offer us something different then we'll reconsider. Or you can always just stay either.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2019 08:01PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Meanwhile, Raab tweeted (and quickly deleted) that they would get a good deal for all regions of England, including Scotland.

This wasn't well received in Scotland.

It is like a parody sketch.

Fake.

But it says a lot that so many people readily believed it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16380968.snps-ian-blackford-apologises-over-fake-scotland-is-a-region-of-england-tweet-from-brexit-secretary-dominic-raab/

Strazdas · 30-07-2019 08:07PM

abff wrote: »

So what it really boils down to is a game of 'who blinks first'? Great way to decide matters of great importance!

But it's not a stand off between two equals. You would think there can only be one winner here given the size and strength of the EU.

Infini · 30-07-2019 08:14PM

Strazdas wrote: »

But it's not a stand off between two equals. You would think there can only be one winner here given the size and strength of the EU.

The only winners out this would be the predatory parasites who engineeree this like Farage and co who pushed this to profit from the misery. The EU takes a hit but because of its size its able to absorb the shock. Ireland takes a hit but as were of the EU we can adapt on the medium to long term. The UK on the other hand may not likely survive the economic and political fallout from such a self inflicted disaster and no amount of rubbish from the daily mail and express and co will change the fact Brexit was the choice of the British goverment and noone else.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2019 08:19PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The referendum was a bit of a swizz in that the vote was not on the FPTP but on an 'alternative vote' scheme which was not much better.

From here the view of the PR on it was about how it would change results.

Not much about how it could only change results in marginals.

Nothing remotely close to http://www.chickennation.com/voting/

Which matches our system ,
apart from here were you aren't forced to vote, and how we have multi seat constituencies so even die-hard party members can completely ignore parachute candidates.

Professor Moriarty · 30-07-2019 08:26PM

Infini wrote: »

The only winners out this would be the predatory parasites who engineeree this like Farage and co who pushed this to profit from the misery. The EU takes a hit but because of its size its able to absorb the shock. Ireland takes a hit but as were of the EU we can adapt on the medium to long term. The UK on the other hand may not likely survive the economic and political fallout from such a self inflicted disaster and no amount of rubbish from the daily mail and express and co will change the fact Brexit was the choice of the British goverment and noone else.

Brexit Party MEP Ben Habib has set aside £183 million to invest in properties that have and will have suffered because of Brexit. Here is a quote from Habib just before the referendum:

'If we get a vote for Brexit and the commentators are right, sterling will weaken and the markets will go into a degree of volatility, we'll be looking at that as a really great opportunity to buy assets in the UK. So, when things are going down, when sterling weakens, as that is going to happen in a no-deal, you profit."

The clowns who vote for vultures like this deserve everything they get.

briany · 30-07-2019 08:28PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Brexit Party MEP Ben Habib has set aside £183 million to invest in properties that have and will have suffered because of Brexit. Here is a quote from Habib just before the referendum:

'If we get a vote for Brexit and the commentators are right, sterling will weaken and the markets will go into a degree of volatility, we'll be looking at that as a really great opportunity to buy assets in the UK. So, when things are going down, when sterling weakens, as that is going to happen in a no-deal, you profit."

The clowns who vote for vultures like this deserve everything they get.

Make Britain great again by buying all of it.

ancapailldorcha · 30-07-2019 08:39PM

Below standard posts deleted.

Joe_ Public · 30-07-2019 09:07PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Brexit Party MEP Ben Habib has set aside £183 million to invest in properties that have and will have suffered because of Brexit. Here is a quote from Habib just before the referendum:

'If we get a vote for Brexit and the commentators are right, sterling will weaken and the markets will go into a degree of volatility, we'll be looking at that as a really great opportunity to buy assets in the UK. So, when things are going down, when sterling weakens, as that is going to happen in a no-deal, you profit."

The clowns who vote for vultures like this deserve everything they get.

“Another demonstration the rest of the world has huge confidence in Britain. As do I.”

The above is what Liz Truss, britains secretary of state for international trade no less, tweeted a few months ago in response to a report highlighting the UK as a hot tip for foreign companies on the hunt for deals. A welcome mat for vultures on the lookout for some easy asset stripping or just more compelling evidence of the ministers utter stupidity? Close call i would say.

Professor Moriarty · 30-07-2019 09:19PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

“Another demonstration the rest of the world has huge confidence in Britain. As do I.”

The above is what Liz Truss, britains secretary of state for international trade no less, tweeted a few months ago in response to a report highlighting the UK as a hot tip for foreign companies on the hunt for deals. A welcome mat for vultures on the lookout for some easy asset stripping or just more compelling evidence of the ministers utter stupidity? Close call i would say.

These aren't stupid people. They are wild-eyed zealots.

Joe_ Public · 30-07-2019 09:28PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

These aren't stupid people. They are wild-eyed zealots.

Correct, very dangerous wild-eyed zealots who need to be stopped. I have to concede it surely takes a certain degree of intelligence to get, not just elected, but promoted to an office of state, but when it comes to Truss, i'm sorely tempted to make an exception. Whatever intelligence might lurk within, she does a first rate job in hiding it.

Thargor · 30-07-2019 09:48PM

After all the BS and all the waffle we're finally starting to get to the consequences part of their actions, and an absolut dream team of those responsible for it on the Tory front bench aswell, one more calm period to go over the recess and then the fireworks.

https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1156147984788283392

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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