Irish Language

Stop moaning ffs · 29-07-2019 12:28PM

Always wondered how the welsh language survived and even thrived and continues to with the English right on their doorstep yet the English all but managed to wipe Irish out completely here.

Imreoir2 · 29-07-2019 02:51PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Always wondered how the welsh language survived and even thrived and continues to with the English right on their doorstep yet the English all but managed to wipe Irish out completely here.

The Welsh were a lot more militant about their language. If a shop in an Irish speaking area in Ireland puts up signs in English only, people ignore it and don't care. Some Irish speakers may complain a bit, but thats about it. In Wales the shop gets a warning and if it goes unheeded the shops windows get broken.

Welsh language activists are proud that not a day goes by without someone in jail for Welsh.

Irish language activists tried direct action tactics a bit back during the campaign for Teilifís na Gaeilge, and it worked, but on the whole the people in the movement are too middle class and "respectable" to be doing that kind of thing, probably to the detriment of the language.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-07-2019 03:12PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was over in Corr na Mona, Co. Galway the last few days. A Gaeltacht region in Connemara.

I hadn't brushed up on Irish since school but I found it all flooding back to me when in that environment. From the dark recesses of my mind

Immersion is the only way to become fluent in a language. The classroom will only get you so far.

The way children are taught in Ireland needs to change. Maybe mandatory spells in the Gaeltacht need to be introduced.

Make it optional in secondary school, for starters. Certainly for the senior cycle.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

And how much Chinese do you speak yourself, a chara?

It was pretty obvious from their post that they don’t speak it, I thought? The point was that learning a more widely spoken language from a young age might be a better idea.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-07-2019 03:23PM

robman60 wrote: »

This. I'm always amused at these feckin eejits who say we should all be learning Chinese when they don't even have a single word of French after their six years in school.

I think it's an excuse made by the lazy or the dumb, who try to say they're only bad at Irish because it is of low economic utility.

Is aoibhinn liom Gaeilge agus laibhríom í le mo thuismitheori gach uile lá, cé go bhfuil Béarla ár dteanga máithreach.

Isn’t the argument that we should learn a useful second language from a young age?

Irish was really my only bad subject. Everyone has one! It wasn’t a languages thing. I was a good student of French. I was also pretty swotty in school, especially primary school. Am I lazy or dumb?

Nobody seems to bat an eyelid at people saying they didn’t like English/Maths/French/whatever in school but say you didn’t Irish and judgements like the above are quite commonplace. How is that okay? Was there any subject you didn’t care for in school, robman60? Is it okay to call you lazy or dumb because of it?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 30-07-2019 09:41AM

robman60 wrote: »

I was deliberately posting as Gaeilge (that means in Irish :rolleyes: )and you also translated it incorrectly. Just leave it as is please.

If you wanted your post to come across as smug and arrogant then you've succeeded.

You've had plenty of opportunity to post the correct translation in a language that the vast majority of posters can understand. Instead, you knowingly chose to post in a language that less than 5% of posters could understand.

I doubt if there will be enough support for the language in the future if fluent speakers continue to denigrate the small cohort of supporters like myself that favour the continued support of the language.

But by all means, you are welcome to correct the above translation at your convenience.

whisky_galore · 30-07-2019 09:51AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Always wondered how the welsh language survived and even thrived and continues to with the English right on their doorstep yet the English all but managed to wipe Irish out completely here.

Maybe Welsh language supporters aren't a set of cnuts?

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 10:46AM

The Alpha wrote: »

Ok what is the practical reason for this stupid language that 5 people in the world use.

How about spanish, french or chinese? No let's waste our time on a useless language which barely has any use in Ireland, nevermind the world.

Because its our national language.
And because the chances of you becoming fluent in Chinese and ever using it in any practical sense is 0.
The language of the future is probably English. So we are sorted in that regard. Any language we learn after that is probably for fun or converse while holidays.

Learning Irish probably should be optional, but for those who do opt in, immersion is definitely the only way to learn it. So possibly they should spend 3-6 months of TY living and working in a Gaeltacht area.

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 10:50AM

Irish in effect is a dead language, yes the Irish fascist england hating fanatics will be on here saying it's coming back - "I use it every day" ... yeah it's been coming back for 30 years now and saying cupla focail down the shops when you buy 20 Benson + Hedges of Bridie doesn't count.

*No one* does any serious business in Irish.

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 11:25AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Irish in effect is a dead language, yes the Irish fascist england hating fanatics will be on here saying it's coming back - "I use it every day" ... yeah it's been coming back for 30 years now and saying cupla focail down the shops when you buy 20 Benson + Hedges of Bridie doesn't count.

*No one* does any serious business in Irish.

I think you need to get out more, specifically to a Gaeltacht area. And if you talk to the locals in English, they will reply in English btw, even if they'd probably prefer to talk to you in Irish.

As for fascist, you seem to be someone shoving English down everyone's neck. Ironic much?

We should respect people's choice to speak any language they want, so possibly there should be an opt in/out to learn Irish at this stage.

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 11:28AM

The Alpha wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence. Example of dunning krugger effect. "I'm smart because I want to learn an useless language".
I personally learned French. Unless you can provide proof of this then you are talking out of your arse. How about we see a chart of hierarchy of evidence. Oh what's that? Where is anecdotal evidence? Uh? I cannot seem to find it. But I guess low IQ people like you do not know that they are the dumb ones. No everyone else is dumb but not me for the sole reason that they don't want to learn an useless language.
It's good to know that you're amused, I guess that is the benefit of such IQ.

When was the last time you used French?
I also learned French. I use a couple of words when I go on holidays to France. Apart from that, I have never used it.

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 11:29AM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think you need to get out more, specifically to a Gaeltacht area. And if you talk to the locals in English, they will reply in English btw, even if they'd probably prefer to talk to you in Irish.

As for fascist, you seem to be someone shoving English down everyone's neck. Ironic much?

We should respect people's choice to speak any language they want, so possibly there should be an opt in/out to learn Irish at this stage.

It will never reach that critical mass to be a practical language.
I'm not "forcing" english on anyone, just a practical fact that english is the language spoken and used for virtually all practical communication in IReland.
Some tourists down the Gealtacht buying a sod of turf and saying "Dia duit agus Go rabh math agat" doesn't count.

In fact , European languages are probably used more in Ireland than Irish.

Is Spanish/German gonna become of practical use in Ireland ?

Ecce No Homo · 30-07-2019 11:31AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Were you perhaps dropped on your head as a child, though?

And who is forcing you to learn Irish in Blighty?

Alpha Boy is on his summer holidays. I think he is maybe 14 and going through his rebellious utilitarian phase.

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 11:33AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

To preserve it for future generations.

Whether we like it or not, it's a huge part of our identity.

I'm Irish, I love Ireland - the Irish language is not part of my identity.

Just a bad memory of frustrated oul bints screaming at me to learn it in school,
funny how it was always the Irish teachers that would lose the head like that - it's almost like they knew it was an utter load of oul shite that no one cared about.

Maths/Science teachers never would be going mental trying to "teach" their subjects

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 11:47AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I'm Irish, I love Ireland - the Irish language is not part of my identity.

Just a bad memory of frustrated oul bints screaming at me to learn it in school,
funny how it was always the Irish teachers that would lose the head like that - it's almost like they knew it was an utter load of oul shite that no one cared about.

Maths/Science teachers never would be going mental trying to "teach" their subjects

So you had a bad experience learning a language and it turned you off that language for life. That's fair enough.
We all had a similar experience, but many people are able to rise above the way it was taught to them.
Personally speaking I'd prefer if my kids had a good grasp of Irish rather than taking their language cues from the latest English Love Island contestant, etc.

We've heard a lot of Brit bashing lately because of Brexit, but it seems most people feel closer to the UK than they are willing to admit and prefer that culture to their own.

mikhail · 30-07-2019 11:51AM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

And how much Chinese do you speak yourself, a chara?

一点

I didn't hate Irish in school, but then I didn't hate school generally like many seem to have. I find I've grown more sentimental about the language in the years since I stopped learning it. It's been advantageous to us as a nation and as a people to speak English, both in terms of international business and easy integration after emigration to UK/US/etc. and it's hard to argue the economic value of the real effort it would take to return to true bilingualism, but I think we could do better than we currently do. Go minic, agus mise as an tír, ba maith liom beaganín comhrá as Gaeilge a deanimh le mo chairdé. And I have no doubt I've mangled that sentence, but I'm pleased I can produce it all the same.

SusieBlue · 30-07-2019 11:59AM

Its all down to how its taught. Both Irish and other languages should be taught through immersion at primary school level.
There is no joy in learning a language via reciting verbs and verses of prose.
Learning by speaking, showing and doing is best.

I genuinely believe we would see a huge improvement in fluency levels of any language if it was taught like that instead of getting bored, disinterested kids to spend hours with their head in books studying rules and grammar. The alternative actually engages them in the learning process, they don't even realise how much they're taking in. Its all gradual.

For what its worth I went through the entire education system learning through Irish.
Just as an example, I don't think I could explain the rules of the Módh Coinníollach (conditional tense) to a non-speaker if I tried, but I just *know* by looking/writing/speaking whether the sentence is correct or not. Its simply ingrained in me, similar to the way we structure our sentences in the English language is ingrained in us all without us even knowing.

This is the way forward for learning all languages. European languages aren't taught to a particularly high standard either but that doesn't attract as much controversy as Irish does.

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 11:59AM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So you had a bad experience learning a language and it turned you off that language for life. That's fair enough.
We all had a similar experience, but many people are able to rise above the way it was taught to them.
Personally speaking I'd prefer if my kids had a good grasp of Irish rather than taking their language cues from the latest English Love Island contestant, etc.

We've heard a lot of Brit bashing lately because of Brexit, but it seems most people feel closer to the UK than they are willing to admit and prefer that culture to their own.

Also I am not against kids learning the language, but it should be optional , cos then the kids that do it will want to and there will be a good atmosphere of learning in the class and they will do better, no dossers like me in the class.

But lets be honest, Irish is in the same category as Esperanto or Latin - purely recreational at this stage.

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 12:07PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Also I am not against kids learning the language, but it should be optional , cos then the kids that do it will want to and there will be a good atmosphere of learning in the class and they will do better, no dossers like me in the class.

But lets be honest, Irish is in the same category as Esperanto or Latin - purely recreational at this stage.

Slight exaggeration there. Its spoken as a first language by tens of thousands of people. Historically, it was the famine that done for Irish and it was always on the backfoot after that. No-one is saying it should be returned as the day to day language of Ireland, but it would be a pity for it to die out. Especially as other small nations such as Wales or Iceland have made serious efforts to keep alive their language and no-one has been as critical of them.
There is significant discrimination in favour or Welch for example.
http://www.govyou.co.uk/end-discrimination-against-the-english-language-in-wales/

For many public sector appointments in Wales it is a requirement to be able to speak Welsh. However the majority of Welsh citizens do not speak Welsh so the pool from which public appointments are made is severely limited. A mandatory requirement like this should be outlawed so that local bodies can make sensible choices about the level of Welsh speakers that may be required and be able to select the best people from any linguistic background.

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 01:22PM

tens of thousands of people speak Irish as a first language ??

I'm not havin' it ...

Imreoir2 · 30-07-2019 01:30PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Irish in effect is a dead language, yes the Irish fascist england hating fanatics will be on here saying it's coming back - "I use it every day" ... yeah it's been coming back for 30 years now and saying cupla focail down the shops when you buy 20 Benson + Hedges of Bridie doesn't count.

*No one* does any serious business in Irish.

What do you call "serious business"?

I work through Irish, for example. Is the employment that pays for my house "serious" or is it something else?

Hector Savage · 30-07-2019 01:47PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What do you call "serious business"?

I work through Irish, for example. Is the employment that pays for my house "serious" or is it something else?

I'd say you are in the extreme minority.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-07-2019 01:49PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

When was the last time you used French?
I also learned French. I use a couple of words when I go on holidays to France. Apart from that, I have never used it.

So... you do use it.

Edgware · 30-07-2019 01:56PM

I think that most people would be able to manage basic phrases such as day to day greetings, ****e talk about the weather, Winning streak etc with a bit of encouragement.
Our intellectual betters like Michael D and pals can prattle away about poetry etc.
If people had the confidence to try the basics they would be surprised with what they remember

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 02:10PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So... you do use it.

Not enough to justify 5 years of learning it at secondary school. The pigeon French that now remains I could have learned in a couple of months by myself and probably a couple of days through immersion. In fact after a couple of days in any country, you will pick up enough phrases to get by. Most customer facing French people have good English anyways. So yeh, going through 5 years of French in secondary school for that, wasn't worth it. That said, a small minority do go on to use French in their work and everyday lives. Much like Irish.

bobbyss · 30-07-2019 02:21PM

Surely the way forward is to have something like 90% for exams based on your ability to SPEAK the language. Optional writing stuff for those wishing to study it at third level.

L Cert exam should be only about your ability to talk about yourself and the world around you.

This is all we need the language for. I wouldn't get too preoccupied with writing skills unless you are college bound. Imagine if everyday at school you were only asked to TALK in Irish. Never mind read or write .

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-07-2019 02:39PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Not enough to justify 5 years of learning it at secondary school. The pigeon French that now remains I could have learned in a couple of months by myself and probably a couple of days through immersion. In fact after a couple of days in any country, you will pick up enough phrases to get by. Most customer facing French people have good English anyways. So yeh, going through 5 years of French in secondary school for that, wasn't worth it. That said, a small minority do go on to use French in their work and everyday lives. Much like Irish.

I liked my five years of French learning. Hated all my Irish learning. Let’s give people the choice. Irish should be optional in secondary school, certainly for the senior cycle.

ToBeFrank123 · 30-07-2019 02:53PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I liked my five years of French learning. Hated all my Irish learning. Let’s give people the choice. Irish should be optional in secondary school, certainly for the senior cycle.

No real problem with that.
I'd agree with bobbyss too that they should all but give up on the writing part and focus instead on speaking it because even very few people in the Gaeltacht write in Irish day in day out, except those who work through it.
And the aural exam should be a recording of someone from the local Gaeltacht not Donegal!
The dept of education keep making little mistakes like that which turn people off the language and give people nightmares and trauma!

If the dept of education could focus on:
Keeping it as mandatory up to Junior Cert but 90% of it spoken
Optional up to leaving cert but also 90% of it spoken
Keep it interesting and relevant to the modern world
Then they will succeed

kikilarue2 · 30-07-2019 02:57PM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

If the dept of education could focus on:
Keeping it as mandatory up to Junior Cert but 90% of it spoken
Optional up to leaving cert but also 90% of it spoken
Keep it interesting and relevant to the modern world
Then they will succeed

I like this idea.

Maybe more like 70:30 split for me, but in general I think that's a really solid idea. My 14 year old cousin is just back from the Gaeltacht and absolutely loved it. Great experience for him. He'd probably never have done Irish to JC given the choice though. Mandatory to JC but with a heavy focus on speaking and listening is a good idea.

robman60 · 30-07-2019 04:18PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Isn’t the argument that we should learn a useful second language from a young age?

Irish was really my only bad subject. Everyone has one! It wasn’t a languages thing. I was a good student of French. I was also pretty swotty in school, especially primary school. Am I lazy or dumb?

Nobody seems to bat an eyelid at people saying they didn’t like English/Maths/French/whatever in school but say you didn’t Irish and judgements like the above are quite commonplace. How is that okay? Was there any subject you didn’t care for in school, robman60? Is it okay to call you lazy or dumb because of it?

Way to straw man. I said there is a cohort who moan that Irish lacks utility, but I have found that those advising us all to bow to our Chinese overlords are the same ones who aren't good at any subject. Of course, you could just be bad at a subject, and that's fine. I merely said it's annoying when people try to blame the language for their own incompetence.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-07-2019 04:40PM

robman60 wrote: »

Way to straw man. I said there is a cohort who moan that Irish lacks utility, but I have found that those advising us all to bow to our Chinese overlords are the same ones who aren't good at any subject. Of course, you could just be bad at a subject, and that's fine. I merely said it's annoying when people try to blame the language for their own incompetence.

But there you go again. What does that even mean? Personally, I don’t like Irish much as a language. It’s not particularly nice-sounding to my ears and I didn’t enjoy learning it. Many people feel this way. Is that incompetence or mere preference? I think learning a more widely spoken subject (Mandarin, Spanish etc.) from a young age would be much better too. And I was good at plenty of subjects. You made a silly generalisation.

Irish Language

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