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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • #5912
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    Sounds identical to Herr to me

    Note. The audio doesn't play for me properly if I play on the browser. If it opens in twitter it plays properly (might be just me though).

    If he meant Här for Luxembourg what does the bunker bit refer to?

    https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/1154522392041009152?s=09
    The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


    I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.


  • #5913
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,077 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


    I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

    Give Francois's previous comments about WW2 spirit, and his army 'career'.

    I don't think there is any doubt but that he was trying to invoke war time sentiment.


  • #5914
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


    I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

    You're totally deluded if you think Francois was referring to anything other than the last days of Hitler when he used the word "bunker".


  • #5915
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,989 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


    I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.


    Really, you think the man that tore up a letter from Airbus and stated his forefathers didn't beat those Germans in the war for them to tell him what to do is not thinking about the war?


  • #5916
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Really, you think the man that tore up a letter from Airbus and stated his forefathers didn't beat those Germans in the war for them to tell him what to do is not thinking about the war?
    OK he may have meant Führerbunker.


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  • #5917
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,962 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    I'm not going to get at Juncker here but to be accurate, although Juncker is from Luxembourg, German is one of the official languages so he might well have been addressed as Herr Juncker. Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

    This is a good example of the "Brexit is a Religion" mindset I mentioned before (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110339919&postcount=592).

    There's a great Halloween episode of the Simpsons where Bart is practically omnipotent and can bend reality to make anything he wants happen. Obviously everyone is in fear of Bart and seeks to please him. After a school test, his teacher explains to the class that the correct answers are whatever Bart wrote on his test: so the USA is now called "Bonerland" and was founded by "Some Guy" etc.

    It's pretty much the same with brexit; where brexit conflicts with facts, it's the facts that have to yield.

    So when a prominent brexiter like Francois states something that's patently wrong; tough. Luxembourg is now part of Germany and Jean Claude Junker can justifiably be called a Nazi.


  • #5918
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭trellheim


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Is the envy of the world? Wouldn't have thought it was much different to any other civil service in the west... I've never looked at Britain and thought 'Oh, I'm so jealous of their civil service.'

    That said, Cummings plan sounds very, very dangerous and sounds like the beginning steps of an authoritarian government.


    If you look at the what Michael Gove has been appointed to - Chancellor of Duchy of Lancaster , and where Cummings is, its basically a writ to carry out exactly whats in that extract - rewrite the civil service in their vision


  • #5919
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,952 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    trellheim wrote: »
    My view is that he thinks the WA is a bad deal. Dues to the man though it is getting harder and harder to find an unbiased journalist on this, and although I never ever thought I'd say this Sky News are the least biased for me at the moment although Beth is no Faisal Islam ( how the fk they let him go was a mystery ) she's excellent.

    I watch Sky News on Youtube sometimes. Does anyone know why they keep playing Jingle music in the background?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #5920
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,077 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Once again I'm inclined to think this morning of the fiasco Labour is.
    If Johnson's plan us to dramatically restructure the civil service or whatever the exact angle is, to have Labour so so inept in flagging the risk or demanding counter-action is downright contradictory to their supposed ideals.

    They would be the security guards who are hiding in a stationary cupboard while a burglar ransacks the building.

    Maybe, just maybe, Corbyns plan is to let the Tories absolutely destroy everything so then he can build the government system he desires from the ashes. Interesting concept maybe but scary approach it is true. And he'd want to be in government until he's 100 to see it through.


  • #5921
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I watch Sky News on Youtube sometimes. Does anyone know why they keep playing Jingle music in the background?

    It’s a xylophone player on college green. He has some repertoire :)


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  • #5922
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,193 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Patser wrote: »
    France's reply to Johnson is brilliant, sorry no renegotiation of deal, but if you want to meet to have a chat about what happens after you leave fine. That's a nonchalant reply to all Johnson's bombastic we're leaving on 31st October, one way or another! France: Ok, see ya, what's next for us.

    https://reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UL0DH?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%2BTrending%2BContent&utm_content=5d3ab1f0ba8d0400013c7240&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true


    And here is the same woman - Amélie de Montchalin - at the NI border.


    https://twitter.com/AdeMontchalin/status/1152149808330805253



    "On the Irish-UK border with my Irish colleague @HMcEntee

    After the #Brexit, France will be the European country closest to Ireland. This will only strengthen our already dense links on vital issues for citizens"


  • #5923
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Once again I'm inclined to think this morning of the fiasco Labour is.
    If Johnson's plan us to dramatically restructure the civil service or whatever the exact angle is, to have Labour so so inept in flagging the risk or demanding counter-action is downright contradictory to their supposed ideals.

    They would be the security guards who are hiding in a stationary cupboard while a burglar ransacks the building.

    Maybe, just maybe, Corbyns plan is to let the Tories absolutely destroy everything so then he can build the government system he desires from the ashes. Interesting concept maybe but scary approach it is true. And he'd want to be in government until he's 100 to see it through.

    General elections are becoming more personality driven, basically presidential, across the world - the UK included. Thus, Corbyn is increasingly making Labour unelectable. Whatever about Johnson being a liar, he will destroy Corbyn at the despatch box and outshine him on television. Like him or loathe him, Johnson has charisma.

    By comparison, Corbyn is dithering and monochrome. In fact, if there is a no deal, I would primarily blame Corbyn's ineptitude as opposition leader and his watery commitment to Europe and, of course, the gutless Labour MPs who wouldn't take him down.


  • #5924
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,133 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    General elections are becoming more personality driven, basically presidential, across the world - the UK included. Thus, Corbyn is increasingly making Labour unelectable. Whatever about Johnson being a liar, he will destroy Corbyn at the despatch box and outshine him on television. Like him or loathe him, Johnson has charisma.

    By comparison, Corbyn is dithering and monochrome. In fact, if there is a no deal, I would primarily blame Corbyn's ineptitude as opposition leader and his watery commitment to Europe and, of course, the gutless Labour MPs who wouldn't take him down.

    Performances in the Commons only matter to political hacks, whose views are entrenched anyway.

    TV performance, walkabouts, soundbites and gaffes are more important than the one upmanship that takes place in the chamber.

    Sadly, policy doesn't really feature in the hierarchy of importance.


  • #5925
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.
    Doesn't matter if he was talking about Churchills bunker or Hitlers bunker, he's still invoking WW2 and trying to claim he's in a fight against evil Germans now.


  • #5926
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    robinph wrote: »
    Doesn't matter if he was talking about Churchills bunker or Hitlers bunker, he's still invoking WW2 and trying to claim he's in a fight against evil Germans now.
    I've already conceded that he could have been evoking the last days of Hitler in the Furherbunker.


  • #5927
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Performances in the Commons only matter to political hacks, whose views are entrenched anyway.

    TV performance, walkabouts, soundbites and gaffes are more important than the one upmanship that takes place in the chamber.

    Sadly, policy doesn't really feature in the hierarchy of importance.

    Johnson's performance at the despatch boc was splashed across the British media. Johnson's oratorical skills and charisma were in stark contrast to Corbyn's mealy mouthed and grey mumbling. Personality has replaced policy and there will be only one winner between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.


  • #5928
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Johnson's performance at the despatch boc was splashed across the British media. Johnson's oratorical skills and charisma were in stark contrast to Corbyn's mealy mouthed and grey mumbling. Personality has replaced policy and there will be only one winner between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

    To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot air


  • #5929
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot sir

    Hopefully. But imagine if he had been facing Starmer? Or Thornberry?


  • #5930
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Hopefully. But imagine if he had been facing Starmer? Or Thornberry?


    Just on that.
    At what point does Corbyn go for the good of the country I need to step down and hand this over?
    The Tories are delighted he’s leading labour. He’s been neutered as a threat utterly in a sustained campaign against him on all fronts for years.

    If I were him I’d step down


  • #5931
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,193 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot air

    Including when he was asked again why he had met Cambridge Analytica in 2016 and responded 'I dont know' before sitting down again. Yeah, that's perfectly acceptable.


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  • #5932
    Rjd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,270 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot sir

    Charisma is so important in 2019 no matter if you have nothing of substance to say so yeah a good day for Boris. Majority of voters don't have the time to watch in depth or sit around debating it in detail sadly.

    Corbyn looks stale these days, the attacks are pretty easy to swat away and his weird stance on Brexit is helping nobody. Someone as shrewd as Cummings and a thriving Lib Dems must be loving it.

    I'l give Corbyn the benefit, he has some time off so I think he will in the next few weeks endorse a second referendum. He may not want to do it, but to many important people in Labour are rightfully getting angry, 9 years in opposition and if they mantain their current stance it could be another few years ,,,that's unacceptable.


  • #5933
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Including when he was asked again why he had met Cambridge Analytica in 2016 and responded 'I dont know' before sitting down again. Yeah, that's perfectly acceptable.

    Why would he bother his hole answering it? His supporters don't give a shít and the British press are probably going to ignore it anyway.


  • #5934
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

    My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.


  • #5935
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    BobbyBobberson wrote: »
    Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

    My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.

    Soon he'll be an accountant that used to work for an international logistics company.


  • #5936
    Oafley Jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭Oafley Jones


    Rjd2 wrote: »
    Charisma is so important in 2019 no matter if you have nothing of substance to say so yeah a good day for Boris. Majority of voters don't have the time to watch in depth or sit around debating it in detail sadly.

    Corbyn looks stale these days, the attacks are pretty easy to swat away and his weird stance on Brexit is helping nobody. Someone as shrewd as Cummings and a thriving Lib Dems must be loving it.

    I'l give Corbyn the benefit, he has some time off so I think he will in the next few weeks endorse a second referendum. He may not want to do it, but to many important people in Labour are rightfully getting angry, 9 years in opposition and if they mantain their current stance it could be another few years ,,,that's unacceptable.

    I don't know how anyone could give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt at this stage? Maybe he'll be "energised" as well? The most incompetent shower of Tories have been in power during his leadership and look what he's managed.

    There was a great reader's comment on the Guardian on Wednesday; "the only way this cabinet could be more Pro Brexit, is if Corbyn was on it."


  • #5937
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    BobbyBobberson wrote: »
    Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

    My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.
    Out of curiosity, does he actually realise what fate might face him or what kind of short to medium term future does he think the Uk will have?


  • #5938
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, does he actually realise what fate might face him or what kind of short to medium term future does he think the Uk will have?

    Well pre Brexit vote he spoke about thinking of voting. I explained that it was more than likely a **** show and that value of pound would drop etc. This is a guy who has an apartment in Spain and goes to Europe three times a year.

    I asked last week what was he hoping for and he said and he said he would have taken the WA even though he felt it was not enough.

    He just had all the normal comments but delivered more assuredly "I think it will be fine" or "there might be a tiny bit of an upset". My wife was nudging me to leave it because she could see where it was going to end up :pac:


  • #5939
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    There has been much discussion about the role of the civil service and how it might be diminished under the Johnson/Cummings regime.
    It might be instructive of the PM and his senior ministers to watch some old episodes of Yes Minister. It is widely acknowledged in British political circles that those story lines were very close to the truth in the way they portrayed the power that the Civil Service can have over ministers and governments. Their power stems from their knowledge and experience, and the total reliance that ministers have on them when making any public pronouncement.
    If there is any attempt to sideline the civil service, I suspect that there will be a kickback from them.


  • #5940
    IAmTheReign
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭IAmTheReign


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

    Maybe it's me but this came across an awful lot like you're implying his father was a Nazi. "Now I'm not saying his dad was a Nazi, but he was in army during the war..."


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  • #5941
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Both Cummings and Johnson believe they are BY FAR the smartest people in the room

    for an idea of what i am talking about watch here - it is a stunning video about how Vote leave managed to do what they did - seriously - its brilliant

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=552&v=CDbRxH9Kiy4&fbclid=IwAR3HWc31AxZy7RALpdJsj-Buvecr2AItgJBr2PJR-ucPk5zsBWZggeEY6qo


    ( oh and very very scary )


This discussion has been closed.
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