Urban Gaeltacht proposed for Nun’s Island

Paddico · 23-07-2019 2:53pm #1

Not a bad idea to try and foster the language in the City

https://galwaydaily.com/news/urban-gaeltacht-proposed-for-nuns-island/

biko · 23-07-2019 4:36pm

Gaelárasán - I like it

Mrs OBumble · 23-07-2019 5:15pm

“non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

Charming.

Not only a zone to exclude
dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.

Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

Arghus · 23-07-2019 5:28pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

“non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

Charming.

Not only a zone to exclude
dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.

Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

You could look at it that way I suppose, but you could also say it's a potentially interesting idea, rather than picking up on one sentence and bashing it right from the off. You're stretching there to suggest the plans are anti foreigner IMO.

Either way, the plan seems very ambitious and expensive and ideas are only being proposed at this stage, remains to be seen what changes will be made and what will occur in reality.

biko · 23-07-2019 5:58pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not only a zone to exclude
dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

Please don't try to pull the "foreigners" card here. You know as well as anyone that's not the point.

Mrs OBumble · 23-07-2019 9:17pm

biko wrote: »

Please don't try to pull the "foreigners" card here. You know as well as anyone that's not the point.

Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.

Arghus · 23-07-2019 11:53pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.

Learn the oul cúpla focail and you might love it down there.

gctest50 · 23-07-2019 11:57pm

Arghus wrote: »

Learn the oul cúpla focail and you might love it down there.

Or speak English and take all their potatoes

Butterface · 24-07-2019 11:36am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.

And the motive behind the masterplan to exclude outsiders is.. ?

Or could it be a genuine attempt to encourage Irish speaking within the city, and develop the Nuns Island area.

If you are feeling excluded, you could enroll for an Irish language course in NUIG?

biko · 24-07-2019 12:16pm

I am all for anything to stop the decline of Irish as a community language.
Even when it means that with my limited Irish I could not live there myself.

Non-Irish speaking people have the rest of the city and country to live in, they are by no means excluded from anything of significance. Particularly when it's something so simple as learning a language.

Irish Praetorian · 24-07-2019 12:29pm

Given the average rent for a 1-bedroom apartment in the centre of city is currently residing around the €1,000 per month mark, perhaps a more wise investment would be some high density residential construction? In an ideal world one might suggest they should be state owned and with limitations on rent increases in order to try and rein in the private market, but that's ideal. There's really not much purpose in training students with high quality Irish if they can't afford somewhere in the city to live and work - but I would be particularly concerned if such a project was pursued with an 'Irish-speakers only' agenda in mind, to the exclusion of all others.

Paddico · 24-07-2019 1:19pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

“non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

Charming.

Not only a zone to exclude
dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.

Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

Funny how you mention foreigners and then Africans in the same post.
Not sure anyone else on here was thinking along the same lines

youngrun · 24-07-2019 1:56pm

Given the number of primary and post primary schools now in the city that are Gaelscoil /Irish language speaking surely the natural progression is a third level institute /campus that is Irish focused

xckjoo · 24-07-2019 2:16pm

Looks like a good idea. As long as they try and make it a learning and encouraging environment and not one that judges you completely by your current level of Irish. It would be great if they ran classes and it had a social aspect that encouraged Irish speaking even if you didn't live there.

Mrs OBumble · 24-07-2019 3:21pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Looks like a good idea. As long as they try and make it a learning and encouraging environment and not one that judges you completely by your current level of Irish. It would be great if they ran classes and it had a social aspect that encouraged Irish speaking even if you didn't live there.

Like all other gaeltacht areas ... you cannot get in if you're not good enough.

This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.

Imreoir2 · 24-07-2019 5:36pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

“non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

Charming.

Not only a zone to exclude
dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.

Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

What is ironic about an African kid being able to speak Irish? There are plenty of non-nationals who speak Irish fluently. Foreigners often have a better opinion of the language than Irish people themselves. The new language planning officer in the South Kerry Gaeltacht is a Russian, for example. I am currently reading a book written in Irish by a Dutch guy who lives in Brazil. Welcome to the 21st century, Irish is not the exclusive domain of Aran Sweater wearing white guys who can trace their family tree back a thousand years on the Blaskets.

If excluding foreigners is your goal, using Irish to achieve it is a piss poor strategy.

Imreoir2 · 24-07-2019 5:38pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.

How exactly?

Butterface · 24-07-2019 9:03pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Like all other gaeltacht areas ... you cannot get in if you're not good enough.

This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.

The idea of developing a small pocket of the city centre as a Gaeltacht area is that it will influence or encourage Irish speaking.. a rather great idea which requires a rather valiant effort, wouldn't you agree?

To support this idea, those proposing the idea need to attract Irish speakers.
This can be achieved "through the subsidization of rents which can be be tied to salary as wages increase over time until people can meet market prices."

How will the subsidization of rents in this area drive up rents elsewhere?

Would you rather see the Irish language restricted to the few remaining Gaeltacht areas because you think any efforts to continue developing new Gaeltacht areas (which require some proficiency in the language to be a resident) is a restrictive or exclusionary tactic designed to push out foreigners?

It just sounds like you're trolling this thread tbh..

biko · 24-07-2019 9:57pm

Poll added, it could be fun to see how the local peeps feel about this.

fergiesfolly · 24-07-2019 10:41pm

If I'm reading that article correctly, they're look to set up an enclave of Irish speaking professionals.
It seems elitist and wouldn't be, to my mind the best way to spread the use of Irish throughout the city.
What draws local into that sector of the city, if they feel it's only for certain sections of society.

Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases. Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc. Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.
Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.

Imreoir2 · 24-07-2019 11:52pm

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases.

This is already being done. Gaillimh le Gaeilge has a long track record of working with local business.

Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc.

That would be far from cheap. Who is going to do this and where will they get the money? The current proposal is for NUIG becasue they already have property in the area and are putting together plans to develop it. What you suggest does not fall within that remit and as such it won't be NUIG, whoever else might do it.

Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.

Local newspapers and cinemas are private businesses, doing this is somehting that they would have to choose to do themselves, its not something NUIG or any other body could impose on them.

Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.

I don't think anyone is proposing excluding Irish from the rest of the city, it's in the context of the proposed development of a particular area. The development represents an opportunity to get some things done that could not be done otherwise, opening a Gaelarasán for example is next to impossible outside a development like this as no group has the capital to aquire an exisiting apartment building to open such a facility.

I think the focus on young professionals is there becasue of the context of the university being the lead organisation. That approch fits with their objectives more than a social housing project would. Personally I would have no problem with a proposal to establish a Gaelarasán that is not focused on tech grads, but it might be hard for the university to justify allocating its resources to such a project.

Having a recognisable core that may be able to build a critical mass rather than being dispersed over a wide area as is the case now is an idea that should not be dismissed out of hand. The idea of having a Gaeltacht Quarter is something that has been worked on with some success in other cities, Belfast most notably.

25-07-2019 1:29am

If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

It's a dead language, time to move on

Arghus · 25-07-2019 3:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

It's a dead language, time to move on

No. It's our language and our heritage, it's worth trying to protect. I'm ashamed I can't speak more of it myself and I hated it in school.

It is taught poorly in schools. A lot of this proposal is fairly wooly and you'd wonder how some of it is going to work in reality or if it's even going to happen, but at least it's an attempt of sorts to think a bit outside the box regarding the future of the language and I don't think there's any harm in that.

Ficheall · 25-07-2019 4:57am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

Maybe their parents don't have the same prejudices against the language?

25-07-2019 5:30am

I like the idea of an urban gaeltacht but I find this whole masterplan a massive waste of money.

The vast majority of the property NUIG is proposing to redevelop, they do not own yet and may potentially never own. I know they have a memo of understanding with the Bish for their property if the Bish eventually move to Dangan but spending 300k on this masterplan when the Bish haven't gotten planning permission or made any decisive moves to get it as far as I know seems like a huge waste especially given how much the Universities have been claiming poverty in recent years. There are so many dominos that have to fall into place, ring road, planning permission etc. it will be so many years before (if ever) NUIG is seeking planning permission for all this and surely it will be the case that another "consultation" will end up being done.

I also think its crazy that the city council is allowing developers to come up with "masterplans" for areas, it seems like such a conflict of interest especially when developers are specifically excluded from statutory area plans because of conflicts of interest. The city council seems to be passing the buck on smaller areas which is a shame, IMHO NUIG will "listen" but eventually do whatever makes the most sense financially just like any entity involved in development

gordongekko · 25-07-2019 8:42am

At this rate we'll have more quarters than mathematically possible

what_traffic · 25-07-2019 8:48am

NUIG in the World University sphere is known for its "Rannog na Gaeilge" after that perhaps its "Atmospheric Research" Station. Perhaps 1 - 2 other specialist areas as well, but its a very small University in a global sense, so can see exactly why they would float an Urban Gaeltacht Quarter idea in its Nuns Island Masterplan.

Would agree with NellyBellyJelly re LAP, this is not the only recent example of this(i.e Docks Development). City Council themselves have been guilty of not adhering to them(Dyke Road).

xckjoo · 25-07-2019 9:55am

fergiesfolly wrote: »

If I'm reading that article correctly, they're look to set up an enclave of Irish speaking professionals.
It seems elitist and wouldn't be, to my mind the best way to spread the use of Irish throughout the city.
What draws local into that sector of the city, if they feel it's only for certain sections of society.

Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases. Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc. Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.
Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.

How is it elitist? Literally taught to every kid in school. As Bumble pointed out, even kids of non-nationals can have good Irish these days. That sounds pretty inclusive to me.

Deleted User wrote: »

I like the idea of an urban gaeltacht but I find this whole masterplan a massive waste of money.

The vast majority of the property NUIG is proposing to redevelop, they do not own yet and may potentially never own. I know they have a memo of understanding with the Bish for their property if the Bish eventually move to Dangan but spending 300k on this masterplan when the Bish haven't gotten planning permission or made any decisive moves to get it as far as I know seems like a huge waste especially given how much the Universities have been claiming poverty in recent years. There are so many dominos that have to fall into place, ring road, planning permission etc. it will be so many years before (if ever) NUIG is seeking planning permission for all this and surely it will be the case that another "consultation" will end up being done.

I also think its crazy that the city council is allowing developers to come up with "masterplans" for areas, it seems like such a conflict of interest especially when developers are specifically excluded from statutory area plans because of conflicts of interest. The city council seems to be passing the buck on smaller areas which is a shame, IMHO NUIG will "listen" but eventually do whatever makes the most sense financially just like any entity involved in development

I think it's necessary for them to plan so far ahead. Waiting until everything is already in place would be even more costly. They might own more than you think too. AFAIK the Bish land is the only thing they don't currently own in the plan and they've been begging the university to let them move to Dangan since at least the 90's. I don't think it's ring road dependant but could be wrong.
Agreed that it's weird that the council are allowing developers come up with the plans for areas. They're probably getting a final say but those things have the air of rubber stamping about them.

youngrun · 25-07-2019 10:15am

University have an enormous estate in the city+ am sure they would do a superb job on this with whatever partners they have . You only have to take a stroll around the campus and especially north of the river to see whats been done.
Not sure if its them or another party driving the Gaeltacht proposal but its a small part of a big piece.
The Bish have been hoping to move to Dangan to get access to sports facilities up there etc, ( which if the ring road happens would be at least halved in long term and or closed off for the interim build period so may not be as attractive), but better than current zero I guess ! I would have thought a Bish/Marys merger would have solved a lot of probs but different topic and too late now!

Imreoir2 · 25-07-2019 11:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

It's a dead language, time to move on

That's a fairly uninformed sentiment. Getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years does work, it's the expection of what the result should be that is wrong. Total contact time with Irish in English medium schools is only about 1300 hours from start to finish. It takes 5000 hours of study to become fluent in a language. People are about as good at Irish leaving school as you could reasonably expect them to by, yet people have the idea in their heads that they should be fluent for some reason.

Anyway, Irish is not dead by any measure and those who insist it is only show that they wish it was.

25-07-2019 12:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

It's a dead language, time to move on

Irish is taught terribly in schools, I absolutely hated it and now I hate that I can’t speak it (or very little anyway). It needs a total overhaul in schools and the majority of the curriculum needs to be scrapped.

It should be taught as a spoken language first and foremost, what the hell good is rhyming of verbs or answering question on a piece out of a newspaper etc. scrap it all, not even a book should be opened until people can have a conversation. Make mistakes and learn by speaking not the current nonsense.

Also it’s not dead and it’s certainly not time to move on, terrible opinion to have of our language.

xckjoo · 25-07-2019 12:38pm

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

Irish is taught terribly in schools, I absolutely hated it and now I hate that I can’t speak it (or very little anyway). It needs a total overhaul in schools and the majority of the curriculum needs to be scrapped.

It should be taught as a spoken language first and foremost, what the hell good is rhyming of verbs or answering question on a piece out of a newspaper etc. scrap it all, not even a book should be opened until people can have a conversation. Make mistakes and learn by speaking not the current nonsense.

Also it’s jot dead and it’s certainly not time to move on, terrible opinion to have of our language.

Totally agree with you here. All languages should be taught to a high spoken degree before worrying about writing it down. Far more practical and useful. What use is being able to read and write it if most people can't speak it? Imagine how much more common it would be if most kids left school able to have a conversation in it.

Mrs OBumble · 25-07-2019 1:08pm

Butterface wrote: »

The idea of developing a small pocket of the city centre as a Gaeltacht area is that it will influence or encourage Irish speaking.. a rather great idea which requires a rather valiant effort, wouldn't you agree?

To support this idea, those proposing the idea need to attract Irish speakers.
This can be achieved "through the subsidization of rents which can be be tied to salary as wages increase over time until people can meet market prices."

How will the subsidization of rents in this area drive up rents elsewhere?

Would you rather see the Irish language restricted to the few remaining Gaeltacht areas because you think any efforts to continue developing new Gaeltacht areas (which require some proficiency in the language to be a resident) is a restrictive or exclusionary tactic designed to push out foreigners?

The proposal isn't to restrict Irish to one quarter. You'll hear plenty of Irish spoken in Galway City already, if you choose to go to places where it's spoken.

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

RPZ addresses this in theory. Except rents have risen anyways. And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

Ficheall wrote: »

Maybe their parents don't have the same prejudices against the language?

... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.

Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.

PS trolling doesn't mean have an opinion which you disagree with. Or even one which the majority of people disagree with.

xckjoo · 25-07-2019 1:27pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The proposal isn't to restrict Irish to one quarter. You'll hear plenty of Irish spoken in Galway City already, if you choose to go to places where it's spoken.

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

RPZ addresses this in theory. Except rents have risen anyways. And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.

Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.

PS trolling doesn't mean have an opinion which you disagree with. Or even one which the majority of people disagree with.

It's new housing to be built by the University for the University. No removal of anything from the "regular pool". They have a certain Irish language remits that they aren't really fulfilling at the moment so this would help them rebalance things somewhat.
I'd also love to know where you're getting this stuff about African kids picking up languages like they're loose change. If they're fluent in (by your count) 4 languages by the time they finish school then they should be hailed as shining examples of what can be done through immigration. People should be writing research papers about them. Particularly if they're learning Irish since the usual line is that they make no effort to integrate into Irish culture. But I guess to be truly Irish they'll have to moan about the tiny efforts being made to preserve our native language and begrudge anybody who benefits from going to the effort of learning it.

Imreoir2 · 25-07-2019 1:37pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Rather, the proposal is to remove a certain amount of housing from the city's regular pool, and make it available to professionally-educated Irish speakers only.

Meaning that there is even more demand (and so higher prices) for housing for non-professionally educated Irish speakers and non-Irish speakers.

I am not sure that this is what is proposed, but if we take it that it is, then there is no reason to believe that it would have any impact on rents in the rest of the city, negative or otherwise. If a small amount of housing was set aside for professionally-educated Irish speakers then the total housing stock would not be reduced and the segmenting of the housing stock would also segment the housing market and while the non-restrected housing stock would be ever so slightly smaller the demand for non-restricted housing would also be ever so slightly smaller and those seeking to rent in the non-restricted market would be spared competition form professionally-educated Irish speakers.

And besides - the proposal talks about not renewing leases on the basis of "inadequate progress" (by implication in either Irish or professional life) - so is actually talking about a fundamental change to housing laws too.

This has nothing at all to do with housing law. The restriction would be part of a private lease agreement, not law. A private lease can have any restrictions it wants as long as those restrictions are not in breach of equality legislation and there is nothing in equality legislation about linguistic criteria. Any business can require that their staff must speak English and any landlord can require that their tenants must speak Irish.

So there you go, your concerns on the impact on the housing market and the fear that housing law would need to be changed have been shown to be baseless.

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

... most parents of African kids have at least a tribal language, French, and English. Irish is just one more - and one which they realise is useful to advance socially and in some professions in Ireland.

"Glorious Irish Nationalism". I see that I have been taken in by a troll.

Suffice it to say that Gaelscoils are not raceist and do not represent any kind of "white-flight". A good friend of mine, a black woman raised in Dublin is a fluent Irish speaker and was educated in a Gaelscoil in a working class area of Dublin, and she is far from the only one. Atempts to paint the Irish language as elitist or raceist is nothing more than a pack of lies spouted by the kind of people who twenty years ago were labeling Irish as the language of backwards peasants. Clearly it is not their supposed concerns but the language itself that pains the heart of this troll.

Elitism is not a virtue which was mentioned in the proclamation of the Republic or enshrined in the constitution. It has no place here.

Neither do your patrionising lies about the Irish language.

Robbo · 25-07-2019 1:39pm

One has to admire the Galway Daily blogs total commitment to a multi-lingual Galway. Rather than write in boring old Hiberno-English, they've created their own form of semi-literate US-English argot complete with deeply unfortunate formulations such as "to see a professional Irish-speaking class in Galway City" rather than "to see an Irish speaking professional class in Galway City". Or perhaps the intention is to unfairly paint Gaeilgeoirs as some kind of subsidy junkies?

Whoever's floating the idea if the Irish speaking apartment blocks clearly hasn't been legally advised on the matter so it's best treated as a kite flying exercise to try and pursue some other kind of development.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 25-07-2019 1:41pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What is ironic about an African kid being able to speak Irish? There are plenty of non-nationals who speak Irish fluently. Foreigners often have a better opinion of the language than Irish people themselves. The new language planning officer in the South Kerry Gaeltacht is a Russian, for example. I am currently reading a book written in Irish by a Dutch guy who lives in Brazil. Welcome to the 21st century, Irish is not the exclusive domain of Aran Sweater wearing white guys who can trace their family tree back a thousand years on the Blaskets.

If excluding foreigners is your goal, using Irish to achieve it is a piss poor strategy.

What’s a “better opinion”?

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

25-07-2019 1:42pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The proposal aims to make a professional enclave of glorious Irish nationalism. The people proposing it don't see if that way, of course, in the same way that the parents who do Irish version of white-flight by sending their kids to a Gaelscoil don't see their behaviour as racist. But it is elitist .. and the unstated objective is doomed to fail because ....

.

This is a new level of absolute nonsense, even for boards.

Parents who send their kids to a school which speaks our national language as it’s first language are racist and elitist?

Nothing stopping you leaning Irish if you are so bothered that you won’t be able to access a small housing development in the city.

This is not a new thing either btw, there are plenty of rules around getting planning permission for example. You simply won’t get it in a Gaeltacht if you can’t speak irish or you wont get it in other areas if you don’t have ties to the area. Come out to my area and try to get planning and you haven’t a hope whereas it’s very easy for me. That’s no different to what’s proposed here so I see no hurdle in it being implemented.

Imreoir2 · 25-07-2019 1:51pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What’s a “better opinion”?

I don't spend my time pondering how to be successfully raceist in Ireland. I can only say that hoping that something which was never created to be raceist in the first place, is not run with any intention of delivering raceist outcomes and is open to the full participation of all races, will somehow deliver a raceist outcome if that is what you desire probably is not going to work out for you.

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

Then you are uneducated. Speaking Irish is a skill and a very employable one at that. There are more people working in jobs that require Irish in Ireland than in any other language except English. Speaking Irish is an economic advantage.

I am also told that telling uneducated raceist who shout "go back to your own country" to go f**k themselves in the national Language is a great feeling.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 25-07-2019 2:01pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't spend my time pondering how to be successfully raceist in Ireland. I can only say that hoping that something which was never created to be raceist in the first place, is not run with any intention of delivering raceist outcomes and is open to the full participation of all races, will somehow deliver a raceist outcome if that is what you desire probably is not going to work out for you.

Then you are uneducated. Speaking Irish is a skill and a very employable one at that. There are more people working in jobs that require Irish in Ireland than in any other language except English. Speaking Irish is an economic advantage.

I am also told that telling uneducated raceist who shout "go back to your own country" to go f**k themselves in the national Language is a great feeling.

Excuse me?

Robbo · 25-07-2019 2:07pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

This has nothing at all to do with housing law. The restriction would be part of a private lease agreement, not law. A private lease can have any restrictions it wants as long as those restrictions are not in breach of equality legislation and there is nothing in equality legislation about linguistic criteria. Any business can require that their staff must speak English and any landlord can require that their tenants must speak Irish.

So there you go, your concerns on the impact on the housing market and the fear that housing law would need to be changed have been shown to be baseless.

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:

It is anticipated that rental payments can increase with salary while “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

25-07-2019 2:16pm

Robbo wrote: »

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:
What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

Planning laws demonstrate that these types of language rules or other rules that exclude people from applying can be legally introduced and enforced.

Robbo · 25-07-2019 2:16pm

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

This is not a new thing either btw, there are plenty of rules around getting planning permission for example. You simply won’t get it in a Gaeltacht if you can’t speak irish or you wont get it in other areas if you don’t have ties to the area. Come out to my area and try to get planning and you haven’t a hope whereas it’s very easy for me. That’s no different to what’s proposed here so I see no hurdle in it being implemented.

Local needs planning is problematic from an EU Law perspective since Libert in 2013.

Robbo · 25-07-2019 2:18pm

Ellis Wonderful Khakis wrote: »

Planning laws demonstrate that these types of language rules or other rules that exclude people from applying can be legally introduced and enforced.

As it appears out replies have crossed, I'll refer you to my post on Libert.

25-07-2019 2:18pm

Robbo wrote: »

Local needs planning is problematic from an EU Law perspective since Libert in 2013.

5 years later it’s still fully active though. I’m currently putting together a planning application in county Galway so can confirm it’s still an absolute deal breaker not meeting the local needs rules.

Go around Europe and you will find plenty of rules and regulations which are not dissimilar to local needs or having language rules.

25-07-2019 3:00pm

I like the idea - creating a critical mass where the language is active on the street rather than having to seek it out.
Being near Domnick Street probably helps for socialising.

Could a planning condition superceed the residential tenancies act? I.e. if the building is only allowed on condition it is occupied by certain groups (Irish speakers, students, elderly, disabled or whatever)

25-07-2019 3:22pm

xckjoo wrote: »

the Bish land is the only thing they don't currently own in the plan and they've been begging the university to let them move to Dangan since at least the 90's. I don't think it's ring road dependant but could be wrong.

Without the Bish land they have no access to the distillery which is a huge part of the land they own there. Thats one of the major reasons that they want the Bish land so they have access to their property, the main Bish school itself isn't the most important thing its the access they can get on the left hand side.

Without the Bish, the only accessible property that NUIG own is the Engineering building, the small education building and the building beside Altenach house.

Its been previously reported that the move is waiting on the ring road (https://connachttribune.ie/plans-still-in-pipeline-for-bish-move-to-dangan-101/)

Imreoir2 · 25-07-2019 4:18pm

Robbo wrote: »

Yeah, you may want to have a read of the Residential Tenancies Acts if you think that certain aspects of housing law can be contracted out of.

I'll give you one example to get you started; the means by which tenancies may end:
What's being proposed is that the Part IV rights of "non-performing" tenants are disregarded if the tenant fails an arbitrary language test. This is an area of the 2004 Act you can't contract out of.

Who said anything about contracting out of the provisions of the law? I was specifically talking about having a linguistic criteria restricting access to the scheme. There is nothing in the residential tenancies act, as far as I can see that prevents a landlord restricting applicants to Irish speakers only, or young professionals only. The only grounds that a landlord could not use to restrict applications are those provided for in law, such as race, gender, member of the travelling community etc. Plenty of Universities already run Irish language housing schemes on campus and as such I an very confident that restricting such a scheme in the manner proposed is not in breach of any law.

Ending the tenancy is a different matter. I don't know the details of the proposed scheme, it seems intended to give tech grads an oppertunity to set up in the city with initially reduced rents which are increased as their income improves. I am not sure what the performance criteria referenced would be, though it seems to be income from the context. If the lease stipulates the agreed rent, but for example that there is a discount on rent for an initial period and that the full market rent must be paid after that initial period, I don't think that breaches the law. If the tenant is unable to pay their rent after the initial discount goes away, then that is grounds for ending the tenancy if I am not mistaken.

Lets say that there are other criteria (and I don't know what they might be), if the tenant was given up to six years to comply with those criteria and as such the scheme was a six year scheme, then under a fixed term lease the tenant would only be entitled to stay in the property for six years. As such, whatever the performance critera are could be reviewed shortly before the end of the life of the scheme and if the tenant were found to be in breach of those criteria then a notice of termination could be issued to the tenant, they would leave once the six year lease under the scheme was up and the lease would not be renewed.

BarryD2 · 25-07-2019 4:33pm

If the idea can stand on it's own feet, it sounds fine. But if it turns out to be just another language initiative that has to be propped up by State intervention & finance and wouldn't survive otherwise, then I'd say no.

Imreoir2 · 25-07-2019 4:48pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

If the idea can stand on it's own feet, it sounds fine. But if it turns out to be just another language initiative that has to be propped up by State intervention & finance and wouldn't survive otherwise, then I'd say no.

How about NUIG, should it also be expected to stand on its own feet without constant state intervention and finance?

Smegging hell · 25-07-2019 5:29pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What’s a “better opinion”?

Honestly, it seems like such a waste of time to me for a foreigner to learn such a niche language to fluency when it’s not even needed to converse in Ireland. Their choice to learn it of course. But I can’t fathom why they’d bother.

Because they have a passion for Irish culture, because they enjoy the challenge of learning a language, because they want to converse with Irish-speaking friends or partners in their own language? There are a myriad of reasons one can have for learning a language. I know quite a few people from Poland, the Basque Country, etc, who have very strong Irish.

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