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Urban Gaeltacht proposed for Nun’s Island

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Comments

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Gaelárasán - I like it


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,902 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

    Charming.

    Not only a zone to exclude
    dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

    A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.






    Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,239 ✭✭✭✭ Arghus


    “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

    Charming.

    Not only a zone to exclude
    dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

    A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.






    Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

    You could look at it that way I suppose, but you could also say it's a potentially interesting idea, rather than picking up on one sentence and bashing it right from the off. You're stretching there to suggest the plans are anti foreigner IMO.

    Either way, the plan seems very ambitious and expensive and ideas are only being proposed at this stage, remains to be seen what changes will be made and what will occur in reality.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Not only a zone to exclude
    dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!
    Please don't try to pull the "foreigners" card here. You know as well as anyone that's not the point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,902 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    biko wrote: »
    Please don't try to pull the "foreigners" card here. You know as well as anyone that's not the point.

    Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,239 ✭✭✭✭ Arghus


    Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.

    Learn the oul cúpla focail and you might love it down there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,608 ✭✭✭ gctest50


    Arghus wrote: »
    Learn the oul cúpla focail and you might love it down there.

    Or speak English and take all their potatoes


  • Registered Users Posts: 731 Butterface


    Funnily enough, I genuinely believe that it is an attempt to exclude outsiders, no matter whether they come from Dublin or Dubai.

    And the motive behind the masterplan to exclude outsiders is.. ?

    Or could it be a genuine attempt to encourage Irish speaking within the city, and develop the Nuns Island area.

    If you are feeling excluded, you could enroll for an Irish language course in NUIG?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    I am all for anything to stop the decline of Irish as a community language.
    Even when it means that with my limited Irish I could not live there myself.

    Non-Irish speaking people have the rest of the city and country to live in, they are by no means excluded from anything of significance. Particularly when it's something so simple as learning a language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭ Irish Praetorian


    Given the average rent for a 1-bedroom apartment in the centre of city is currently residing around the €1,000 per month mark, perhaps a more wise investment would be some high density residential construction? In an ideal world one might suggest they should be state owned and with limitations on rent increases in order to try and rein in the private market, but that's ideal. There's really not much purpose in training students with high quality Irish if they can't afford somewhere in the city to live and work - but I would be particularly concerned if such a project was pursued with an 'Irish-speakers only' agenda in mind, to the exclusion of all others.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭ Paddico


    “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

    Charming.

    Not only a zone to exclude
    dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

    A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.






    Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.
    Funny how you mention foreigners and then Africans in the same post.
    Not sure anyone else on here was thinking along the same lines


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 youngrun


    Given the number of primary and post primary schools now in the city that are Gaelscoil /Irish language speaking surely the natural progression is a third level institute /campus that is Irish focused


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,168 ✭✭✭ xckjoo


    Looks like a good idea. As long as they try and make it a learning and encouraging environment and not one that judges you completely by your current level of Irish. It would be great if they ran classes and it had a social aspect that encouraged Irish speaking even if you didn't live there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,902 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Looks like a good idea. As long as they try and make it a learning and encouraging environment and not one that judges you completely by your current level of Irish. It would be great if they ran classes and it had a social aspect that encouraged Irish speaking even if you didn't live there.

    Like all other gaeltacht areas ... you cannot get in if you're not good enough.

    This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ Imreoir2


    “non-achieving occupants” would be replaced with new applicants as leases expire.

    Charming.

    Not only a zone to exclude
    dem damn foreigners... even locals will only be welcome if they're high enough achievers!

    A real picture of the Irish republic as described in the proclamation.


    Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.

    What is ironic about an African kid being able to speak Irish? There are plenty of non-nationals who speak Irish fluently. Foreigners often have a better opinion of the language than Irish people themselves. The new language planning officer in the South Kerry Gaeltacht is a Russian, for example. I am currently reading a book written in Irish by a Dutch guy who lives in Brazil. Welcome to the 21st century, Irish is not the exclusive domain of Aran Sweater wearing white guys who can trace their family tree back a thousand years on the Blaskets.

    If excluding foreigners is your goal, using Irish to achieve it is a piss poor strategy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ Imreoir2


    This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.

    How exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 731 Butterface


    Like all other gaeltacht areas ... you cannot get in if you're not good enough.

    This will drive rents up further because many people won't be allowed to live there.

    The idea of developing a small pocket of the city centre as a Gaeltacht area is that it will influence or encourage Irish speaking.. a rather great idea which requires a rather valiant effort, wouldn't you agree?

    To support this idea, those proposing the idea need to attract Irish speakers.
    This can be achieved "through the subsidization of rents which can be be tied to salary as wages increase over time until people can meet market prices."

    How will the subsidization of rents in this area drive up rents elsewhere?


    Would you rather see the Irish language restricted to the few remaining Gaeltacht areas because you think any efforts to continue developing new Gaeltacht areas (which require some proficiency in the language to be a resident) is a restrictive or exclusionary tactic designed to push out foreigners?

    It just sounds like you're trolling this thread tbh..


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Poll added, it could be fun to see how the local peeps feel about this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭ fergiesfolly


    If I'm reading that article correctly, they're look to set up an enclave of Irish speaking professionals.
    It seems elitist and wouldn't be, to my mind the best way to spread the use of Irish throughout the city.
    What draws local into that sector of the city, if they feel it's only for certain sections of society.

    Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
    Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases. Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc. Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.
    Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ Imreoir2


    Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
    Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases.

    This is already being done. Gaillimh le Gaeilge has a long track record of working with local business.
    Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc.

    That would be far from cheap. Who is going to do this and where will they get the money? The current proposal is for NUIG becasue they already have property in the area and are putting together plans to develop it. What you suggest does not fall within that remit and as such it won't be NUIG, whoever else might do it.
    Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.

    Local newspapers and cinemas are private businesses, doing this is somehting that they would have to choose to do themselves, its not something NUIG or any other body could impose on them.
    Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.

    I don't think anyone is proposing excluding Irish from the rest of the city, it's in the context of the proposed development of a particular area. The development represents an opportunity to get some things done that could not be done otherwise, opening a Gaelarasán for example is next to impossible outside a development like this as no group has the capital to aquire an exisiting apartment building to open such a facility.

    I think the focus on young professionals is there becasue of the context of the university being the lead organisation. That approch fits with their objectives more than a social housing project would. Personally I would have no problem with a proposal to establish a Gaelarasán that is not focused on tech grads, but it might be hard for the university to justify allocating its resources to such a project.

    Having a recognisable core that may be able to build a critical mass rather than being dispersed over a wide area as is the case now is an idea that should not be dismissed out of hand. The idea of having a Gaeltacht Quarter is something that has been worked on with some success in other cities, Belfast most notably.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,993 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

    It's a dead language, time to move on


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,239 ✭✭✭✭ Arghus


    DaCor wrote: »
    If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

    It's a dead language, time to move on

    No. It's our language and our heritage, it's worth trying to protect. I'm ashamed I can't speak more of it myself and I hated it in school.

    It is taught poorly in schools. A lot of this proposal is fairly wooly and you'd wonder how some of it is going to work in reality or if it's even going to happen, but at least it's an attempt of sorts to think a bit outside the box regarding the future of the language and I don't think there's any harm in that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,965 ✭✭✭ Ficheall


    Ironically some African kids I know speak better Irish than many locals.
    Maybe their parents don't have the same prejudices against the language?


  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭ NellyBellyJelly


    I like the idea of an urban gaeltacht but I find this whole masterplan a massive waste of money.

    The vast majority of the property NUIG is proposing to redevelop, they do not own yet and may potentially never own. I know they have a memo of understanding with the Bish for their property if the Bish eventually move to Dangan but spending 300k on this masterplan when the Bish haven't gotten planning permission or made any decisive moves to get it as far as I know seems like a huge waste especially given how much the Universities have been claiming poverty in recent years. There are so many dominos that have to fall into place, ring road, planning permission etc. it will be so many years before (if ever) NUIG is seeking planning permission for all this and surely it will be the case that another "consultation" will end up being done.

    I also think its crazy that the city council is allowing developers to come up with "masterplans" for areas, it seems like such a conflict of interest especially when developers are specifically excluded from statutory area plans because of conflicts of interest. The city council seems to be passing the buck on smaller areas which is a shame, IMHO NUIG will "listen" but eventually do whatever makes the most sense financially just like any entity involved in development


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭ gordongekko


    At this rate we'll have more quarters than mathematically possible


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    NUIG in the World University sphere is known for its "Rannog na Gaeilge" after that perhaps its "Atmospheric Research" Station. Perhaps 1 - 2 other specialist areas as well, but its a very small University in a global sense, so can see exactly why they would float an Urban Gaeltacht Quarter idea in its Nuns Island Masterplan.

    Would agree with NellyBellyJelly re LAP, this is not the only recent example of this(i.e Docks Development). City Council themselves have been guilty of not adhering to them(Dyke Road).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,168 ✭✭✭ xckjoo


    If I'm reading that article correctly, they're look to set up an enclave of Irish speaking professionals.
    It seems elitist and wouldn't be, to my mind the best way to spread the use of Irish throughout the city.
    What draws local into that sector of the city, if they feel it's only for certain sections of society.

    Why not help the people already living and working in the city to use the language.
    Encourage Irish to be spoken in shops and business. Even if it's just simple greetings and phrases. Have pamphlets with phrases sent to all homes in the city and displayed in shops, pubs, buses, tourist offices etc. Bi-lingial sections in local newspapers. Short Irish language films before the main feature in cinemas.
    Spread it around the whole city, not squeeze it into a corner.
    How is it elitist? Literally taught to every kid in school. As Bumble pointed out, even kids of non-nationals can have good Irish these days. That sounds pretty inclusive to me.
    I like the idea of an urban gaeltacht but I find this whole masterplan a massive waste of money.

    The vast majority of the property NUIG is proposing to redevelop, they do not own yet and may potentially never own. I know they have a memo of understanding with the Bish for their property if the Bish eventually move to Dangan but spending 300k on this masterplan when the Bish haven't gotten planning permission or made any decisive moves to get it as far as I know seems like a huge waste especially given how much the Universities have been claiming poverty in recent years. There are so many dominos that have to fall into place, ring road, planning permission etc. it will be so many years before (if ever) NUIG is seeking planning permission for all this and surely it will be the case that another "consultation" will end up being done.

    I also think its crazy that the city council is allowing developers to come up with "masterplans" for areas, it seems like such a conflict of interest especially when developers are specifically excluded from statutory area plans because of conflicts of interest. The city council seems to be passing the buck on smaller areas which is a shame, IMHO NUIG will "listen" but eventually do whatever makes the most sense financially just like any entity involved in development

    I think it's necessary for them to plan so far ahead. Waiting until everything is already in place would be even more costly. They might own more than you think too. AFAIK the Bish land is the only thing they don't currently own in the plan and they've been begging the university to let them move to Dangan since at least the 90's. I don't think it's ring road dependant but could be wrong.
    Agreed that it's weird that the council are allowing developers come up with the plans for areas. They're probably getting a final say but those things have the air of rubber stamping about them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 youngrun


    University have an enormous estate in the city+ am sure they would do a superb job on this with whatever partners they have . You only have to take a stroll around the campus and especially north of the river to see whats been done.
    Not sure if its them or another party driving the Gaeltacht proposal but its a small part of a big piece.
    The Bish have been hoping to move to Dangan to get access to sports facilities up there etc, ( which if the ring road happens would be at least halved in long term and or closed off for the interim build period so may not be as attractive), but better than current zero I guess ! I would have thought a Bish/Marys merger would have solved a lot of probs but different topic and too late now!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ Imreoir2


    DaCor wrote: »
    If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

    It's a dead language, time to move on

    That's a fairly uninformed sentiment. Getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years does work, it's the expection of what the result should be that is wrong. Total contact time with Irish in English medium schools is only about 1300 hours from start to finish. It takes 5000 hours of study to become fluent in a language. People are about as good at Irish leaving school as you could reasonably expect them to by, yet people have the idea in their heads that they should be fluent for some reason.

    Anyway, Irish is not dead by any measure and those who insist it is only show that they wish it was.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,778 ✭✭✭✭ Shepherd Echoing Treeless


    DaCor wrote: »
    If getting lessons 5 days a week for 13 years doesn't work, what makes anyone think that this will.

    It's a dead language, time to move on

    Irish is taught terribly in schools, I absolutely hated it and now I hate that I can’t speak it (or very little anyway). It needs a total overhaul in schools and the majority of the curriculum needs to be scrapped.

    It should be taught as a spoken language first and foremost, what the hell good is rhyming of verbs or answering question on a piece out of a newspaper etc. scrap it all, not even a book should be opened until people can have a conversation. Make mistakes and learn by speaking not the current nonsense.

    Also it’s not dead and it’s certainly not time to move on, terrible opinion to have of our language.


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