Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Beechwoodspark · 18-07-2019 09:54PM

It’s like these ppl think the EU is not aware of what has been said and done in UK politics over the last few years.

Mr.Nice Guy · 18-07-2019 10:04PM

Amazed that Davis still thinks that the UK could have got its way if it had only been "confident" enough to threaten No Deal. You don't need to bluff if you have a strong hand. The strategy which he laments wasn't used was one of weakness.

Beechwoodspark · 18-07-2019 10:07PM

Davis thinks swagger and bullsh1t would have worked...

They believe to their core that they can “get one over” the continentals

Mr.Nice Guy · 18-07-2019 10:18PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Davis thinks swagger and bullsh1t would have worked...

They believe to their core that they can “get one over” the continentals

Yeah we saw that in the documentary about having Barnier sit in that old chair in London. Davis memorised his lines whereas Barnier read from his papers. They thought this made Davis look the more accomplished performer. All about style over substance.

In reality Barnier is ten times the operator Davis is and you get the feeling watching that documentary that deep down Davis knows it.

Nody · 18-07-2019 10:23PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The surest bet of stopping no deal is convincing the new PM that he will be taken down if he persists in ticking the clock down to halloween. The numbers would appear to be there to achieve that. Reality is setting in, the bluff and bluster is wearing thinner and thinner by the day.

But here's the counterpoint to that; if he fails to deliver Brexit there are several Tories ready to back stab him for the PM position as the party members who will vote would make Farage blush in joy. Hence fail to deliver Brexit and a party member back stabs you and promise to deliver Brexit and the voter base will lick it up; or deliver Brexit and hope you can BS your way through it. First scenario is pretty much a 100% likelihood; the second one has that sliver of chance to succeed...

trashcan · 18-07-2019 10:25PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Timmermans is taking no prisoners. He’s one step away from laughing.

Says the Uk approach was akin to sitcom dads army “don’t panic don’t panic”

Indeed, not to mention of course "They don't like it up em"

On a separate note, will Boris's "Kippergate" moment last night have any impact, or are people just so immune to him talking rubbish at this point that it doesn't even matter anymore ?

boggerman1 · 18-07-2019 10:35PM

David Davis just comes across as Swiss Tony from the fast show.timmermans can spot a bull**** merchant a mile off in Johnson.

First Up · 18-07-2019 10:36PM

trashcan wrote:

On a separate note, will Boris's "Kippergate" moment last night have any impact, or are people just so immune to him talking rubbish at this point that it doesn't even matter anymore ?

The fact that the front runner for PM - who has based his entire strategy on Brexit - could make such a blunder tells you all you need to know about the state of the Tory party. Not only was he able to make this hilarious mistake, there was nobody advising him who knew enough to know that he had it ars*ways.

And yet there are saps who believe this idiot can rescue the UK from a disaster created by people just like him.

Water John · 18-07-2019 10:47PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Someone today in the independent saying the choice is between Johnson’s delusions and a Corbyn government.

They actually are more in fear of Corbyn and labour taking over than a no deal.

The whole country is being held ransom to ongoing fear nonsense than reality.

Grieve making it quite clear that they will bring down the Govn't if Johnson tries to take UK out with No Deal.

Tell me how · 18-07-2019 11:04PM

Water John wrote: »

Grieve making it quite clear that they will bring down the Govn't if Johnson tries to take UK out with No Deal.

Could we see a GE fought via some sort of a Brexit Party/Tory 'Alliance' versus Greens/Lib Dems and the 64k dollar question..... where do Labour position themselves?

Shelga · 18-07-2019 11:06PM

Just catching up with the Panorama programme now. My god, David Davis is a complete embarrassment to his nation.

He sits there chuckling away nostalgically, when he should be utterly ashamed of his role in all of this, and the humiliation he brought upon the UK.

Headshot · 18-07-2019 11:13PM

Tell me how wrote: »

Could we see a GE fought via some sort of a Brexit Party/Tory 'Alliance' versus Greens/Lib Dems and the 64k dollar question..... where do Labour position themselves?

You would expect Labour to be in the Greens/Lib Dems coalition, specially as most of Labour party members want to say in Europe.

I'm currently watching Britains Brexit Crisis, it's a fascinating watch. I hatred for Brexiters such as Raab continue to grow though, the man is up there with Boris in talking out of his ass.

I wonder though should've May threaten to call another GE when Foster and her cohorts said No to the backstop, it could of been the perfect opportunity to force the DUP to stand down.

You could say the DUP are the main reason why England are still in Europe which in itself is quite funny

Laois_Man · 18-07-2019 11:26PM

Headshot wrote: »

You would expect Labour to be in the Greens/Lib Dems coalition, specially as most of Labour party members want to say in Europe.

I'm currently watching Britains Brexit Crisis, it's a fascinating watch. I hatred for Brexiters such as Raab continue to grow though, the man is up there with Boris in talking out of his ass.

I wonder though should've May threaten to call another GE when Foster and her cohorts said No to the backstop, it could of been the perfect opportunity to force the DUP to stand down.

You could say the DUP are the main reason why England are still in Europe which in itself is quite funny

What would have been the difference to the DUP between standing down and having a GE? They were never going to stand down!

Headshot · 18-07-2019 11:28PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

What would have been the difference to the DUP between standing down and having a GE? They were never going to stand down!

Right now they have so much power and if a GE happened they wouldnt be the king maker any more

They've played all their cards and the Brexiters cannot stand them.

Laois_Man · 18-07-2019 11:31PM

Headshot wrote: »

Right now they have so much power and if a GE happened they wouldnt be the king maker any more

They've played all their cards and the Brexiters cannot stand them.

If they stood down they wouldn’t be the king makers either.

Safeguarding NIs status in the Kingdom is their only concern

54and56 · 19-07-2019 01:26AM

Just watched the Panorama documentary and my main take away is that I'm seriously glad Martin Selmayr is on our side if this!! He is a serious operator who can clearly buy and sell anyone the UK Govt throw at the EU.

My secondary take away is that the UK has fallen into the trap of believing it's own BS and that is about to be debunked on a scale never before seen in history which is quite sad for a once great country.

J Mysterio · 19-07-2019 02:45AM

First Up wrote: »

The fact that the front runner for PM - who has based his entire strategy on Brexit - could make such a blunder tells you all you need to know about the state of the Tory party. Not only was he able to make this hilarious mistake, there was nobody advising him who knew enough to know that he had it ars*ways.

And yet there are saps who believe this idiot can rescue the UK from a disaster created by people just like him.

Combine that with paragraph 5c. All in a few days.

Beechwoodspark · 19-07-2019 08:03AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yeah we saw that in the documentary about having Barnier sit in that old chair in London. Davis memorised his lines whereas Barnier read from his papers. They thought this made Davis look the more accomplished performer. All about style over substance.

In reality Barnier is ten times the operator Davis is and you get the feeling watching that documentary that deep down Davis knows it.

Very true.

That little stunt was all about optics and says a lot about Davis and the UK if that was what they were prioritising.

ECO_Mental · 19-07-2019 08:27AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Very true.

That little stunt was all about optics and says a lot about Davis and the UK if that was what they were prioritising.

Saw the doc as well and was very good, the English lads will say that Barnier also pulled a stunt on them on day one! where they rocked up for a photo call and didn't have a scrap of paper in front of them and the EU lads had reams of paper....the optics went down hill from there for the UK that they weren't prepared, weren't taking it seriously etc etc. Davis stunt I dont even remembering that happening but EVERYBODY remembers Davis sitting at a table with nothing in front of him.

mickoneill31 · 19-07-2019 08:48AM

I thought the Panorama doc didn't really give anything earth shattering. It's all stuff we knew. But the bit about the EU negotiators expecting the UK to have a great plan and their realisation that they didn't was interesting. I kind of thought that initially too. I saw the posturing in the early days and thought it was step 1, not the entire plan.
And that doesn't seem to have moved on with the future PM waving around a kipper blaming the EU for a rule he thinks is daft and then finding out it's a British rule. I'm sure the EU commission is shaking in their boots at scenes like that. Unless the cunning plan is to make the EU believe that the UK is incompetent and that they need to be saved from themselves.

I thought that Hammond stating that triggering article 50 without a plan was the wrong thing to do "with the benefit of hindsight" was depressing. No **** sherlock. You needed hindsight for that? How about using the benefit of common sense.

Also David Davis saying that the UK failed because they weren't confident enough while he was chuckling away showed his competence. This was the guy talking about the "easiest deal in history". I think the UK may have been a smidge too confident heading into the negotiations. And that doesn't seem to have gone away.

First Up · 19-07-2019 09:04AM

mickoneill31 wrote:

I thought the Panorama doc didn't really give anything earth shattering. It's all stuff we knew.

It was stuff you knew, if you had an understanding of how the EU is structured and operates.

It would have been jaw-droppingly new for many in the UK who get their knowledge of the EU from the Daily Express and Daily Mail.

It might finally be dawning on some that not only is this not a game, they are dealing with serious, competent people.

Some uneasy shifting in seats perhaps, along with the belicose flag waving.

lawred2 · 19-07-2019 09:18AM

First Up wrote: »

It was stuff you knew, if you had an understanding of how the EU is structured and operates.

It would have been jaw-droppingly new for many in the UK who get their knowledge of the EU from the Daily Express and Daily Mail.

It might finally be dawning on some that not only is this not a game, they are dealing with serious, competent people.

Some uneasy shifting in seats perhaps, along with the belicose flag waving.

or they would have simply changed the channel...

First Up · 19-07-2019 09:20AM

lawred2 wrote:

or they would have simply changed the channel...

No doubt some did. Love Island is what its all about after all.

mickoneill31 · 19-07-2019 09:35AM

First Up wrote: »

It was stuff you knew, if you had an understanding of how the EU is structured and operates.

It would have been jaw-droppingly new for many in the UK who get their knowledge of the EU from the Daily Express and Daily Mail.

It might finally be dawning on some that not only is this not a game, they are dealing with serious, competent people.

Some uneasy shifting in seats perhaps, along with the belicose flag waving.

Yeah, I was writing that from an Irish perspective

I'd imagine if you were a Brexiter you'd probably have thought the UK politicians were talking sense and the EU had bullied the UK.

Peregrinus · 19-07-2019 09:36AM

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I'd imagine if you were a Brexiter you'd probably have thought . . .

I think I may have spotted the flaw in your thinking.

Tell me how · 19-07-2019 09:45AM

First Up wrote: »

It was stuff you knew, if you had an understanding of how the EU is structured and operates.

It would have been jaw-droppingly new for many in the UK who get their knowledge of the EU from the Daily Express and Daily Mail.

It might finally be dawning on some that not only is this not a game, they are dealing with serious, competent people.

Some uneasy shifting in seats perhaps, along with the belicose flag waving.

The Brexiteers did not watch it.

Hope Goggle Box featured it for their participants.

19-07-2019 10:07AM

If there's proof of this, f*ck him and his Tory members if they elect him from a height. (Apologies for the unparliamentary language, but it did rile me up)

"As for Ireland's prime minister, Leo Varadkar, 'Why isn't he called Murphy like all the rest of them',"

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-angela-merkel-stasi-leo-varadkar-murphy-comments-brexit-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

Stop moaning ffs · 19-07-2019 10:07AM

Brilliant and frightening take down of Johnson by Fintan O Toole.
Well worth a read. Frightening in that it shows just how much of a blustering chancer Johnson is. Among other things

https://t.co/5mXG9ftHXz?amp=1

Leroy42 · 19-07-2019 10:54AM

One thing I did get from the program last night is that the UK really do feel that since they don't like the deal on offer (it has no chance of getting through parliament) then it is incumbent on the EU to change the deal. But they have offered nothing to the EU to help.

They don't have any understanding of the compromises that the EU have already done and the issue being totally their creation.

It was stated a number of times how furious TM was that the EU was not doing more to help her. So taking back control, them needing us more than we need them and changed into "please help me". All the steeliness and bluster and No Deal better than a Bad deal, Red white and blue brexit and other such nonsense was now replaced with pleas to be nicer and think of poor old TM. I remember that speech after Salzberg, I remember it as one of the most cringeworthy speeches ever given by a politician. Basically asking the nation to get behind her as the EU were being really rude to her and she had no ability to deal with it herself.

Davis came across as a right prat. He failed completely in his job, even having his staff try to manufacture a situation whereby he could look vaguely professional against the far more polished and seemingly far more prepared, Barnier. Did they redouble their efforts to get ahead of the game, did they make sure to be prepared and look to catch up? No, they sat him on a chair and tried to make him look bad!

In terms of the impact, one only has to look at the Express for the result. It was all totally biased from the BBC, pro-EU the whole way and not giving the Brexiteers a fair shake.

trellheim · 19-07-2019 11:13AM

One thing I did get from the program last night is that the UK really do feel that since they don't like the deal on offer (it has no chance of getting through parliament) then it is incumbent on the EU to change the deal. But they have offered nothing to the EU to help.

They don't have any understanding of the compromises that the EU have already done and the issue being totally their creation.

It was stated a number of times how furious TM was that the EU was not doing more to help her. So taking back control, them needing us more than we need them and changed into "please help me". All the steeliness and bluster and No Deal better than a Bad deal, Red white and blue brexit and other such nonsense was now replaced with pleas to be nicer and think of poor old TM. I remember that speech after Salzberg, I remember it as one of the most cringeworthy speeches ever given by a politician. Basically asking the nation to get behind her as the EU were being really rude to her and she had no ability to deal with it herself.

Davis came across as a right prat. He failed completely in his job, even having his staff try to manufacture a situation whereby he could look vaguely professional against the far more polished and seemingly far more prepared, Barnier. Did they redouble their efforts to get ahead of the game, did they make sure to be prepared and look to catch up? No, they sat him on a chair and tried to make him look bad!

In terms of the impact, one only has to look at the Express for the result. It was all totally biased from the BBC, pro-EU the whole way and not giving the Brexiteers a fair shake.

Thatcher knew well how the EU operated, marched in and got a rebate in 1984 because she could prove their VAT contributions were far higher than the rest.

The difference in operation between then and now is shocking ; Ivan Rogers got the boot because he spoke the truth, and Olly Robbins is about to get gone .

Be interesting to see how the prince of darkness Gavin Williamson can affect any change here.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments