Water charges for excessive usage

is_that_so · 17-07-2019 7:40pm #1

IW have been given approval by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities to start charging people for using excessive amounts of water, above the 213,000L annual limit set by legislation. By the looks of it people will have plenty of time to conform and then there'll be a charge of €1.85 for each 1,000 litres above that limit. A sensible move in my view as there are an estimated 80,000 households going over the limit.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0717/1063532-irish-water/

is_that_so · 17-07-2019 7:44pm

Sure but it does look more like a conservation measure, which would also save some money.

Paulzx · 17-07-2019 7:46pm

Slight problem though. The people who didn't make a fuss about getting their water meter installed can now have their water usage individually monitored.

On the other hand the people who intimidated contractors, defied court orders, abused and heckled Gardai and made sure that water meters were not installed in their areas will be unable to have their usage checked.

How is that going to work?

skimpydoo · 17-07-2019 7:50pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Slight problem though. The people who didn't make a fuss about getting their water meter installed can now have their water usage individually monitored.

On the other hand the people who intimidated contractors, defied court orders, abused and heckled Gardai and made sure that water meters were not installed in their areas will be unable to have their usage checked.

How is that going to work?

I live in an apartment and they could not install meters. What will happen to me and people in my scenario?

is_that_so · 17-07-2019 7:52pm

skimpydoo wrote: »

I live in an apartment and they could not install meters. What will happen to me and people in my scenario?

Not terribly clear from the article but I'd say it would be hard to breach the limit in an apartment.

odyssey06 · 17-07-2019 7:55pm

The RTE article seems to imply it is all about leaks, but it seems a low threshold if the intention is to catch leaks... surely a leak would be way more than 1.7 times the average limit?

Glass fused light · 17-07-2019 7:56pm

Re post 4
Sneek attacks with jcb's hired to dig random holes in random areas.
brown food die will be droped in to mains and the crews will be on standby for the horrified calls from householders.
Lads call up tell the householders its the pipe work conection that needs replacement and they can do them a deal.
On the quiet like.
The meter box will allow the householder proof that the Goverment has caused the runns and the payout will be ephic.
But they have to keep it on the down low.

....
Sucess for IW

Galwayguy35 · 17-07-2019 7:57pm

This was being discussed on Matt Coopers show earlier on, yer wan from IW was asked about unmetered houses and she waffled on about meter reading being taken as an average in estates but in reality they have no way of knowing how much water is used without a meter.

And who arrives on after only Paul Murphy, he must be nearly creaming himself that his favourite subject is back in the news.

kneemos · 17-07-2019 7:58pm

How far did they get with the meter installations?

Bobblehats · 17-07-2019 8:00pm

Was only thinking about it two days ago saying to myself they won’t let that lie.

kneemos · 17-07-2019 8:01pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

This was being discussed on Matt Coopers show earlier on, yer wan from IW was asked about unmetered houses and she waffled on about meter reading being taken as an average in estates but in reality they have no way of knowing how much water is used without a meter.

And who arrives on after only Paul Murphy, he must be nearly creaming himself that his favourite subject is back in the news.

Surely he can fall back on some of his other innovative and progressive policies?

skimpydoo · 17-07-2019 8:06pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Not terribly clear from the article but I'd say it would be hard to breach the limit in an apartment.

In theory, I could run a mini laundrette from my apartment

.

astrofool · 17-07-2019 8:30pm

55% with meters, the rest they can estimate, and then pin it down to individual dwellings afterwards after surveying the pipes directly.

Not sure how anyone can complain with paying a relative pittance after going so far over the average amount. Potable water doesn't fall from the sky!

branie2 · 17-07-2019 8:47pm

If it has to be done, it has to be done

Wildly Boaring · 17-07-2019 8:54pm

Yeah it's actually handy enough sort the leak location in an estate.

Flowmeter going into estate will tell if estate is an issue.

If noone at all is metered you'd stick in couple cheap mechanical flowmeter in estate to narrow down.

Out with the listening gear and see which t running with no stop.

Then install a meter at IW end of the single service connection not at the boundary box. Voila.

BarryD2 · 17-07-2019 8:58pm

A very gentle start to head things in the right direction.

TuringBot47 · 17-07-2019 9:00pm

I thought I read that they were going to base the "household" usage on an average of something like 2.5 people ?

So homes with 2 adults and 2 kids etc are going to have a naturally "excessive" usage compared to a national average ?

Then they slowly bring down the "excessive" usage level and more people fall into the water changes net. Stealth water taxes.

I would hope the usage level is based on occupancy levels.

dudara · 17-07-2019 9:03pm

Moved from AH > CA

kippy · 17-07-2019 9:04pm

We should all be paying directly for water anyway over and above a set limit based on habitation level and special circumstances.
This is a great step - however meters should be installed at every premises in order to fairly police this.

odyssey06 · 17-07-2019 9:08pm

kippy wrote: »

We should all be paying directly for water anyway over and above a set limit based on habitation level and special circumstances.
This is a great step - however meters should be installed at every premises in order to fairly police this.

I think that argument was fought and lost a few years ago, politically it is dead for a generation.

kippy · 17-07-2019 9:10pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I think that argument was fought and lost a few years ago, politically it is dead for a generation.

I think you need to re-read my post.

TheValeyard · 17-07-2019 9:11pm

kneemos wrote: »

How far did they get with the meter installations?

How many have been damaged, broken or removed?

gctest50 · 17-07-2019 9:14pm

No meter*? you pay** the excess

Simples

* = unless it's more or less impossible to fit one

** = deduct at source - dole, wages

Tommy Kelly · 17-07-2019 9:18pm

If there is no leaks on your property, no toilet cisterns or water storage tanks etc constantly filling due to the fact a ball cock that costs around 7 euro needs replacing, no leaking taps well then it would be impossible to use more than the set daily allowance.

Leaks will be detected by a constant flow of water 24/7 passing through the meter.

Leaks on external mains pipe, that's between the Boundary Box / Meter & where the pipe enters your house will be repaired for free.

Anyone that refuses to address leaks / water wastage on their property deserves to be charged for excessive usage IMO.

heyjude · 17-07-2019 9:35pm

Its just the start of the process of reintroducing universal water charges by stealth. The intention to push through water charges within Fine Gael hasn't gone away, they just let the fuss die down, then devised a way of reintroducing them on the quiet.

They've reasoned that nobody could oppose charging those who waste water, which has morphed into those that use excessive amounts of water, then once they've got that foot in the door, the definition of excessive water use will be gradually reduced, until it covers most households, at which point they will reason that as most people are paying, then everyone should be charged. By the time the full process has played out, years will have passed and the opportunity for mass opposition will have passed as the charges will already have passed the point of no return.

Remember at one point they said that nobody would be charged until all water meters had been installed, but greed/impatience got the better of them. They've told so many lies at this stage, I've little confidence that any charges will be limited to excessive users, remember the local property tax was supposed to pay for "local services" too.

17-07-2019 9:37pm

It's a start.

It would be nice if:

1) People could pay for the water service which they use, according to how much they use so that they are financially penalised for wasting this finite resource. Responsibility and respect. Basic stuff.

2) Fine Gael could have set this up without trying to look after all their cliques of parasitic "consultants" and companies in the private sector with the intention of creating an enormously inefficient behemoth called Irish Water - which we were contemptuously expected to fund.

3) The entire establishment of Irish Water hadn't a massive stench of 'use taxpayers money to establish it and then privatise it later so the "lads" (see point 2 above) can make a killing again.'

The scrotes in underclass areas who want something for nothing were well matched here by the scrotes in the professional and business classes who were eager to leech at the trough of all the "free money" which they were hoping Irish Water would give them.

I've always been more than willing to pay for a healthy, modern and efficiently run publicly owned water service. Most people I know would be of the same mind. It's unacceptable that our society is unable to have a safe, modern water system due to the above two interest groups.

deathtocaptcha · 17-07-2019 9:44pm

NO CONSENT, NO CONTRACT

If you share this text on Facebook, the Irish government legally cannot charge you for water under The Water Act of 1568, section 7:G :pac:

Tommy Kelly · 17-07-2019 9:51pm

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

NO CONSENT, NO CONTRACT

If you share this text on Facebook, the Irish government legally cannot charge you for water under The Water Act of 1568, section 7:G :pac:

Aren't farmers & business people etc paying for water.

Delta2113 · 17-07-2019 10:20pm

"The scrotes in underclass areas" - this is very offensive.

Brendan Bendar · 17-07-2019 11:03pm

The Legal Eagles are all horned up on this one, I’m reliably informed.

Only one loser here...the compliant....JQ Taxpayer.

Murphy’s flagging career has gotten a new boost.

Let’s hope the Govt has this one erm...watertight.....but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

branie2 · 17-07-2019 11:07pm

Pun intended?

Brendan Bendar · 17-07-2019 11:12pm

Yes.....

Lackey · 17-07-2019 11:49pm

gctest50 wrote: »

No meter*?

** = deduct at source - dole, wages

Except that will NEVER happen so average Joe tax payer will pay more ....again.

dhaughton99 · 18-07-2019 12:08am

Just trying to justify the fact that they still have jobs in a dead agency.

emo72 · 18-07-2019 12:09am

"scrotes in underclass areas". Well, what a fabulous quote. Thank God your above it.

Always Tired · 18-07-2019 12:11am

It doesn't matter. We protested this crap and forced the FG clowns to back down and I will never, ever, ever pay a penny to the corrupt quango.

emo72 · 18-07-2019 12:14am

Water must be privatised. Nestle have a right to make money, and we all need water to survive. So they can charge us, and make a massive profit for what used to be paid through our taxes. This won't pass over easily.

kippy · 18-07-2019 12:19am

I think a few things need to be nailed down:
1. Irish Water (or the provision of water within Ireland) should never be privatised.
2. The bodies that deliver this service to the state should be run as efficiently as is possible.
3. It has to be accepted that we have a water infrastructure that is creaking in areas and cannot cope with demand in other areas.
4. A general individual responsibility for the use of this finite resource needs to accepted by all.
5. At some point, it is socially responsible to put a levy on those that do now efficiently use the resource.

kippy · 18-07-2019 12:20am

emo72 wrote: »

"scrotes in underclass areas". Well, what a fabulous quote. Thank God your above it.

There are scrotes in every area in fairness.

InTheShadows · 18-07-2019 12:33am

Always Tired wrote: »

It doesn't matter. We protested this crap and forced the FG clowns to back down and I will never, ever, ever pay a penny to the corrupt quango.

+1

emo72 · 18-07-2019 1:00am

InTheShadows wrote: »

+1

+2

cameramonkey · 18-07-2019 1:36am

Are Irish water going to charge themselves for the leakage from their own pipes? They are actually the biggest wasters of water in the country. 57% of water in Dublin is lost through leaks much of it is the fault of Irish water.

Benedict · 18-07-2019 3:22am

The entire "excessive usage" fines system will collapse the moment even one person refuses to pay on the basis of unfairness.
Nearly half the IW customers have no meter so will not be fined. So the other half will pay? The Irish people won''t tolerate this unfairness.
IW are waffling about being able to monitor homes without meters - but the truth is, they won't be able. They can have suspicions, but they can't be sure who's using what in an estate if loads of houses don't have meters. And are they going to say "Hey you lot in No 54, we suspect you're using too much so here's your fine, now pay the fine or it's jail for you".

Do they think the Irish people are complete idiots?

They are bluffing. People with no meters are on a winner and it isn't fair to the people with meters.

Tommy Kelly · 18-07-2019 7:17am

cameramonkey wrote: »

Are Irish water going to charge themselves for the leakage from their own pipes? They are actually the biggest wasters of water in the country. 57% of water in Dublin is lost through leaks much of it is the fault of Irish water.

No. It's our fault that water is being lost on public mains pipes. Decades upon decades of ignoring & not updating the water system has led to leaks on dirty, rotten & dangerous to our health, lead pipes.

Irish water have been for the past several years now upgrading these pipes in various parts of the country.

It's also worth noting that thousands of jobs have been created as a result of the ongoing upgrades to our water system.

Fann Linn · 18-07-2019 7:21am

Tommy Kelly wrote: »

No. It's our fault that water is being lost on public mains pipes. Decades upon decades of ignoring & not updating the water system has led to leaks on dirty, rotten & dangerous to our health, lead pipes.

Irish water have been for the past several years now upgrading these pipes in various parts of the country.

It's also worth noting that thousands of jobs have been created as a result of the ongoing upgrades to our water system.

Is that the 000s of lads who were switchec from LAs to IW?

Tommy Kelly · 18-07-2019 7:27am

Fann Linn wrote: »

Is that the 000s of lads who were switchec from LAs to IW?

Nah, it's lads like myself in the construction sector that fell on hard times during the bust.

The lads working for LA's & I'm talking about the lads on the ground are clashing with their unions etc because they don't want to make the switch probably because they'll have to do a bit. You won't see any workers working for Farrens construction, Coffey's, Shareridge, or GMC once again lads on the ground that made the switch from working for local county councils.

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 7:33am

We live in a house with a shared water main.

Same as very other house on our road.

They tried to fit meters anyway and when I asked them why they were wasting taxpayers money they told me they were just following orders.

So I got onto my local SF counselor and had the installations stopped.

Unless they can specifically measure your household usage, there’s no way they’ll be able to bill you for it. That’s their problem though.

It seems some people are itching to hand more of their hard earned cash over to the government to be wasted on god knows what and that should be their prerogative but they won’t get a cent out of this household without significant tax reductions in other areas.

We already fought that battle and won but we’ll fight it again if we have to. We’re already paying far too much tax for far too few services and IW is nothing but an elaborate con-job on the nation.

_Kaiser_ · 18-07-2019 7:52am

Agree with the poster previously who said that this is simply FG trying to reintroduce their favourite hobby-horse on the quiet.. Because (as in fact evidenced by this thread) who could object to excessive usage or waste being called out? Aren't we all "green" nowadays? :rolleyes:

The threshold will come down and then the mass billing will start but I doubt it'll get that far. The whole mess and suspect deals around IW in the first place hasn't gone anywhere, the same reasons it was defeated last time still exist, and while there will be lots of vocal protests even more will just ignore the bills anyway just as they did before.

FG once again proving to be the "arrogant taxation party" and scoring yet another own goal.

Benedict · 18-07-2019 7:54am

IW should now face up to the fact that the "excessive usage fines" cannot be collected and any that are collected will have to be given back - just like they had to give back charges taken in the past. They are saying that if they "suspect" a non-metered home is using too much, they will insist on them getting a meter? So does IW think that the people in No 47 Anywhere Avenue who fought them off before are going to stand back this time and allow the meters because they are "suspects"? What will IW do this time? Arrange for the Riot Squad to be present (with plenty of tear-gas) in case they are confronted again?
Then maybe they discover their "suspicions" were wrong. So it must be No 49 who has been using all the water after all. So they get the Riot Squad again and just hope they're right this time?

So, if you don't have a meter (lucky you) and you see someone lying on the footpath outside your house with his ear to the ground, you'll know you're a "suspect" so expect the army to show up soon.

Does IW SERIOUSLY think this will work? That metered homes will just pay up while their non-metered neighbours are laughing at them?

The Bishop Basher · 18-07-2019 8:24am

In Wicklow they were using over 90% of LPT revenue collected from us to setup and fund IW. They also have all that motor tax, of which i've just paid €1494 which again goes towards the funding of IW. I pay well over 50% of everything i earn in both direct and indirect taxation while getting fluck all in return and paying for all other services separately, and now they think i'm going to pay yet again for what is nothing more then a bloated quango with a history of wasting tax payers money while looking after "their own".

Last time I checked I didn't have gob****e written across my forehead.

I just don't give my cash away that easily to the government or to anyone else. It's too hard earned and so it's never wasted. Why do the government think i'd give it to them to waste ? Not a hope. It's step too far and i'll go to prison for it if necessary.

Eliminate the waste from the public system, stop throwing all our money at the most expensive children's hospital in the world and in the wrong location, stop wasting our money on dodgy contracts, and failed broadband rollouts, stop supporting and protecting those making fraudulent insurance claims, reduce the obscene pensions bill etc etc etc. The list goes on.. Start spending our money wisely so we can see a return on our taxes and then, but only maybe then, we can discuss water charges but for now they are dead in the water and so is any government that tries to introduce them.

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 8:25am

Tommy Kelly wrote: »

Irish water have been for the past several years now upgrading these pipes in various parts of the country.
It's also worth noting that thousands of jobs have been created as a result of the ongoing upgrades to our water system.

Have you a source for this job creation statement?
Wasn't one of the rationales for IW that by consolidating the water services into a single national body meant less staff would be needed to run the services?

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-cutting-1200-jobs-2372307-Oct2015/

IRISH WATER IS due to reduce its number of employees by 1,200 over the next six years. Three hundred jobs were cut since last year, making the number 1,500 in total. A spokesperson for the utility said the measure is part of a larger business plan agreed when Irish Water was set up. The company is hoping to save €1.1 billion in “operational savings” by 2021.

Water charges for excessive usage

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