The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

Are they going to carry out all this maintenance and upgrade for the sake of 2 years and 8 months, what is this going to cost? I would rather see them restart Tullamore 567kHz , install a new solid state 500 kw transmitter.
What does the 252 mast intail to upgrade? And if anything it should move to 261kHz.

elperello wrote: »

I know a few old timers in Manchester and London who will welcome the continuation of RTE on Long Wave.
They know they will never again live in the country they had to leave in hard times but they like to keep in touch.

Better reception can be used with Internet or Freesat, Freesat is a once off payment.

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio. We have had satellite radio in Europe since the 1990s and a bit early in the US. You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home. From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe. As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box. Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa. It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard. Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo. Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

OK, but not limited to Sky or Freesat ...... you can even use a USB dongle.

To get to the question this raises ...... what is the roadblock in using the Astra transmissions for reception of radio in UK/IRE or other satellites in other locations?
Why would a specific 'Sirius-type' sat set up be required?

The only impediment I imagine is the Sat dish requirements ....... how is that managed for Sirius?

lgs 4 wrote: »

You don,t need a satellite dish ,the home radio receiver or car radio locks on to the orbital satellite and the receiver does the rest .

This is what I was getting at ...... why not?

Previous answer covers it I guess.

Why a Sirius like model ,there needs to be a regulatory body to over see broadcasting regulations ,to ensure no propaganda or agenda driven station are given platform to promote propaganda.

lgs 4 wrote: »

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio. We have had satellite radio in Europe since the 1990s and a bit early in the US. You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home. From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe. As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box. Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa. It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard. Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo. Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

OK, a fair bit to dissect here...

One thing that everyone is overlooking is Satellite radio.

Not really, it's been brought up in this thread several times.

You're saying to yourselves, what has this to do RTE Radio longwave. In the US there is a satellite radio service called Sirius Satellite Radio. Started back in 1989 and is an extremely popular way for people to listen to the radio in their cars or at home.

1. It's called Sirius XM Satellite Radio, formed from a merger of both Sirius & XM that both provided DARS services under licence from the FCC in the United States. The merger was brought about because it was becoming clear that having two separate providers was not viable for either and was completed in 2008 (a bit like the Sky/BSB merger, except the resulting merger of Sirius & XM was a reasonably even share, whereas Sky had effectively taken over BSB despite it formally being a merger).


2. Sirius didn't begin full broadcasts until 2002.

From the US radio stations to International radio stations, all by satellite. Before people, start shouting at this post, its a subscription service. With prices ranging from $5.99 to $9.99 a month. I can't see why that commercial and public service radio broadcasters across Europe, can't amalgamate to form a Sirius like free to air satellite radio service for Europe.

1. The prices currently offered by Sirius XM in the USA according to their website ranges from $8 a month for an online-only "essentials" subscription up to $20.99 a month for their premium commercial pack - specialist subscriptions go further still up to $99.99 a month.


https://www.siriusxm.com/servlet/Satellite?c=SXM_PageDetail_C&childpagename=SXM/SXM_PageDetail_C/SXMPlatformContent&cid=1293939956065&pagename=SXM/Wrapper&intcmp=LM_know-block_subscribe_see-packages-and-pricing



2. I can see why - what general benefit would it be to European radio broadcasters to spend billions of Euros to start a new radio distribution system from scratch when without subscriptions there is no return of investment via such a route?

As it stands RTE Radio One can be heard all across Europe on Astra 2 28e but only on a Sky or Freesat box.

Incorrect. Anyone who can receive the Astra 2E transponder (11914 MHz, Horizontal polarity) that RTÉ Radio 1 is broadcast from can receive it with any DVB-S capable receiver, not just limited to branded receivers from Sky or Freesat. (See attachment for footprint)

Now with Sirius like service stations like RTE Gold be heard by satellite anywhere in Europe either in your car or at home. The main satellites that would have capacity and footprint are Astra 1 19e and Hotbird 13E. Their footprint covers as far the Aran Islands to Ukraine on Astra 1 19 e and with Hotbird 13E to North Africa.

Okay...


1. A Sirius XM - like service relies on several in-orbit satellites broadcasting on frequencies in the S-Band between 2.32 & 2.345 GHz. Outside of the Americas these frequencies are in use on a terrestrial basis for other technologies, an increasing one being TD-LTE (Band 40), one example being O2 in the UK.


2. Both the Eutelsat Hotbird and Astra 1 satellite constellations are Ku Band (10.7 - 12.75 GHz) only satellites (exception - Astra 1L also carries a Ka Band payload). In ITU Region 1 (which includes Europe) these frequencies are allocated on a primary basis to satellite use to be received by fixed terminals with a high-gain aerial, normally a parabolic dish.


3. The radiated powers are limited by agreement between the ITU, countries and relevant organisations to help reduce interference between close by satellites transmitting to the same area on Earth. Taken fundamentally into account is the beamwidth of parabolic antennas providing discrimination between such positioned satellites - for this reason satellites spaced only 3 to 4 degrees apart can use the same frequencies for transmitting to the same or overlapping areas, usually with changes in polarity to give additional protection to interference from each other. A receiving aerial that can't discriminate between two signals coming from six degrees apart isn't suitable.


4. Ku Band frequencies also suffer higher from "rain fade" than on lower frequencies in the L, S and C Bands (from 1 to 4.8 GHz) as well as being more easily stopped by obstacles like tree leaves; again making them undesirable for reception on the move.


5. Even still, Sirius XM's S-Band satellite transmissions are only good where there is open sky to see them. Thus they require lots (thousands?) of terrestrial repeater stations to fill in coverage gaps, notably in urban and suburban areas where there are tall buildings, trees etc. to ensure continuous coverage. Also the continental US lies south of 50 degrees north with most of the population in Canada living fairly close to the US border too - in Europe much of the continent lies above 50 degrees north, including all of Ireland, almost all of the UK, and the Scandinavian and Baltic countries. Using a geostationary orbit in these places results in a low angle of elevation and thus can be easily blocked.**


** Interestingly the original Sirius broadcasts used satellites not in a geostationary orbit, but a Molniya orbit where three satellites followed an elliptical orbit that allowed them to be seen well above the horizon at high latitudes - this did mean that the satellites didn't stay in one place in the sky at all times, but the conditions for reception meant that this wasn't critical compared to XM which used satellites in geostationary orbit, meaning XM had to install more terrestrial repeaters than Sirius did. IIRC all the new satellites in the Sirius XM transmission system are in geostationary orbit.



So overall, no. It's not really a option.

It would take investment by the radio stations and the car manufacturers to have suitable car radios installed and the makers of domestic and portable radios to come on come on board with satellite radios. In the US all the main car manufacturers fit satellite radio receivers as standard.

And investment will only occur if those investing in such a setup expect to see a return and profit in that investment. Without going in too deep, that isn't going to happen. Also while most cars nowadays sold in the USA do include DARS receivers, they aren't fitted "as standard" - those which are sold with such a receiver usually have a free trial subscription available to the new owners, and retention rates (i.e. those that subscribe after the trial ends) are in the region of 40%. Not bad by many standards, but it's still a case that the majority of such new car buyers don't think Sirius XM is worth the additional premium.

Let's deal with the quality of sound .many people here have remarked about low bit rating of DAB.On Astra 1 19e many of the commercial radio stations and public service radio broadcasters in Germany.Broadcast in Dolby Digital sound by satellite with the bit ratings of 320 kbps stereo.

The issues regarding sound quality on DAB are done more on a cost basis than what the platform is technically capable of. DAB, and especially DAB+, can give excellent quality sound if the bitrate allocated to stations is high enough but of course this means restricting the amount of stations available in an ensemble/multiplex. The majority of people can put up with a less "hi-fi" sound for general radio listening day to day, broadcasters know this and the commercial ones especially will crunch how much money they can get in return having say two stations using 128kbps compared to one using 256kbps. Those whom want the very best quality available from a station (e.g. FLAC) will almost all have went down the internet streaming route.


I don't have a setup at present to monitor what's on 19.2 east, but a check on Lyngsat indicates that there are only seven Dolby Digital radio stations in that orbit position, six German and one Austrian. And for all the German stations, they're all stations from public broadcasters that concentrate on classical music, "serious" music and cultural programming.


Out of interest, most of the TV and radio stations at 28 east receivable in Ireland have audio bitrates between 128 and 192kbps - the low budget channels obviously having the lowest audio bitrates. The exceptions are most of the BBC stations which use 256kbps MP2, and HD channels which use MP2, AAC or Dolby Digital audio.


Interestingly, one of the common complaints about Sirius XM radio through its satellite platform is its general audio quality. I've no experience of it myself but I have heard it being roughly comparable to a 64kbps MP3.

Because of the wider bandwidth on satellite transponders in comparison terrestrial DAB transmitters.If it was to happen many medium wave and long wave radio stations would which to satellite For better sound and reception. This does poses the question of geographical listening. Some transponders could be on a narrow beam. This is what could be done if the investment was made.The technology is there.Just be utilised to its best.

Well that's kind of redundant to go over again at this stage, but there's a few things to add.


The market for radio in the USA & Canada is a very different one from that across Europe.


1. The landmass covering the USA & Canada has one major language spoken across it - English - with significant Spanish and French speaking minority communities as well as those whom have a decent understanding of it as a second language. Having a pan-North American broadcasting platform broadcasting mostly in English with some Spanish or French stations also thrown in for good measure to a potential audience of around 350 million is definitely do-able.


2. In contrast, Europe has a lot, lot more linguistic diversity with no one language significantly dominating the continent. English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Swedish, Portuguese, Czech & Slovak*, Hungarian, Slovenian, Croatian & Serbian*, Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Dutch/Flemish* etc. etc. Research over decades of radio listening and TV broadcasting has shown that except under some certain circumstances (like watching a soccer game) nearly everyone restricts their daily viewing and listening to their first language if it is available to them. One can only imagine the amount of duplication required for a certain genre in even just a handful of languages, not to mention audience fracture.



*Placed together as the speaker of one can largely follow listening to the other.



3. Sirius XM makes a compelling offer of a large amount of advertisement free stations to listen to compared to the terrestrial FM & MW stations in the USA, can provide genuine coast-to-coast programming even if you're located miles from your nearest neighbour, and the stations on it have far fewer regulations of content compared to terrestrial stations - it's one of the reasons Howard Stern signed with Sirius, where he had much more freedom for show development without his host station constantly telling him to tone down the stuff that would land them with FCC fines. For around US$11 a month it's not a bad offering of content.


4. However in Europe there is a long, proud tradition of quality public service broadcasting that is generally lacking in the USA (and to a lesser extent in Canada). Wherever it's news & current affairs, various form of music from pop, rock, jazz, classical, world etc. to cultural & sports programmes, nearly all PSBs in Europe have at least one station at or near the top of listening figures in their country. Even where several commercial stations in a country compete alongside a roughly equivalent PSB, regulations surrounding advertising and sponsorship means you hear much more music & presenter talk in comparison to advertising. The differences in this between much of Europe and the USA makes them very different games to be in. Not to mention that even radio stations that exist on satellite platforms are still licenced & regulated from the country they broadcast from on a not largely different basis as terrestrial stations.



5. There was over a decade ago a satellite-based radio platform that could be received with simple aerials across much of Europe inc. Ireland - it was called Worldspace. It was a sort of "happy accident" that its coverage extended that far north as it was supposed to be aimed only at African audiences with a slight overspill into southern Europe. It broadcast on L-Band frequencies (around 1470MHz or thereabouts) via the Afristar satellite and was a monumental commercial flop, attracting little attention even when all its radio broadcasts were free to air. When it went tits up the was no interest from anyone else in using their satellites to broadcast like Worldspace did. It just wasn't a viable operation.


So overall there's no case for a DARS-like system covering Europe when the main broadcasters concentrate on FM, or in some cases DAB(+) with either the internet or DVB based fixed reception platforms (i.e. DVB-T, DVB-S & DVB-C) providing complementary options for very-high quality audio and/or offshoot stations. Adding a new-to-Europe DARS based platform from scratch would be about as liked as a hole in the head.

Footnote: The Eutelsat 10A satellite (10 degrees east) was equipped with an S-Band payload with a possible intention for it to be used for European-wide broadcasting services. However there was a malfunction during in-orbit testing and thus isn't usable.

Deleted User wrote: »

radio works, cheap to buy and everyone has one , we already pay enough to access RTÉ and people shouldn’t be forced to have internet subscriptions or satellite dishes to receive radio, never mind subscribe to a satellite service.

A satellite dish is simply an aerial with a small box of electronics on it. Any tuner looking to pick up an off-air signal needs an aerial even if it's just a coil on a ferrite rod for MW & LW or a small extendable bit of metal for FM. Given their ubiquity these days along with one for reception from 28 east in Ireland or the UK inc. LNB costing about the same as a decent outdoor UHF aerial, the hang ups over satellite dishes should really have been gotten over by this stage. The only ones right to feel aggrieved are those whom for any reason are unable to put up one.

(As a side note, for a serious radio listener whom wants to listen to stations across Europe, North Africa & the Middle East, a satellite receiver dedicated to radio listening is a cheap way to listen to them. Doesn't necessarily need to be listened only through a TV either. A satellite dish with a triple LNB set up for 28, 19 & 13 east will bring in a wealth of stations without needing internet connectivity. There's loads of Openbox/Skybox's around lying unused ever since Sky managed to stop the "gift" racket where you can probably get one for free from someone you know.)

Deleted User wrote: »

Radio is old tech but it works.


RTÉ is only as good as its quality of its media and no form of digital or analogue switch off can improve this.

That goes for any form of media or entertainment outlet. It's not just something RTE has to juggle.

Deleted User wrote: »

RTÉ program quality has severely deteriorated as the lost/fired some very decent people and abused them over the years and this is the greatest downfall for RTÉ and no female , liberal or digital agenda will save them in the end , the internet has gobbled them up and spat them out as they struggle to attract younger generations even with their modern horrible music, it’s not working and if the best they got is Ryan tubridy for radio one then it’s a sad day for RTÉ.

Firstly, opinions relating to the spoken & visual output of RTE programming are simply that - opinion. Their relevance to technical matters concerning broadcasting are moot.

Secondly, elders have complained about the lifestyles, interests and culture of generations younger than them since at least as far back Ancient Greece. Been the case since then, will be the case for a long time to come. Plenty of people will always need to moan about something. Again, not really relevant to technical matters unless it concerns the methods of access to them.

Finally, it's a bit of a contradiction to to bemoan about RTE perusing a "digital agenda" while with the same breath mentioning how internet content "has gobbled them up and spat them out" particularly with young adults - if the latter is the case then RTE going towards a "digital agenda" is exactly what they should be doing as a semi-state enterprise primarily functioning as a national public broadcaster, reaching out to as wide an audience range as practical with a variety of programming. This is in itself not an excuse to neglect their audience whom access their services via offline means, but like many other industries it has to adapt to changes - to not do so means that at its worst it will no longer exist, while at its best become an irrelevance.

As an example, an RTE in 2019 whose radio network had Radio 1 on 567kHz as its main broadcasting outlet with the only other way to listen being on a time-shared FM network with RnaG with an unreformed 2FM stuck with the same presenters giving an average listener age that would have made that for BBC Radio 1 in the early 90's look like spring chickens, with no other platform to access them (no internet streaming, no podcasts, no DVB-S or DVB-T carriage etc.) and sticking rigidly to linear formats would quite rightly be denounced as dinosaurs that either needed slaying or a complete reorganisation to bring them into 21st century relevance.

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TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

A satellite dish is simply an aerial with a small box of electronics on it. Any tuner looking to pick up an off-air signal needs an aerial even if it's just a coil on a ferrite rod for MW & LW or a small extendable bit of metal for FM. Given their ubiquity these days along with one for reception from 28 east in Ireland or the UK inc. LNB costing about the same as a decent outdoor UHF aerial, the hang ups over satellite dishes should really have been gotten over by this stage. The only ones right to feel aggrieved are those whom for any reason are unable to put up one.

(As a side note, for a serious radio listener whom wants to listen to stations across Europe, North Africa & the Middle East, a satellite receiver dedicated to radio listening is a cheap way to listen to them. Doesn't necessarily need to be listened only through a TV either. A satellite dish with a triple LNB set up for 28, 19 & 13 east will bring in a wealth of stations without needing internet connectivity. There's loads of Openbox/Skybox's around lying unused ever since Sky managed to stop the "gift" racket where you can probably get one for free from someone you know.)



That goes for any form of media or entertainment outlet. It's not just something RTE has to juggle.




Firstly, opinions relating to the spoken & visual output of RTE programming are simply that - opinion. Their relevance to technical matters concerning broadcasting are moot.

Secondly, elders have complained about the lifestyles, interests and culture of generations younger than them since at least as far back Ancient Greece. Been the case since then, will be the case for a long time to come. Plenty of people will always need to moan about something. Again, not really relevant to technical matters unless it concerns the methods of access to them.

Finally, it's a bit of a contradiction to to bemoan about RTE perusing a "digital agenda" while with the same breath mentioning how internet content "has gobbled them up and spat them out" particularly with young adults - if the latter is the case then RTE going towards a "digital agenda" is exactly what they should be doing as a semi-state enterprise primarily functioning as a national public broadcaster, reaching out to as wide an audience range as practical with a variety of programming. This is in itself not an excuse to neglect their audience whom access their services via offline means, but like many other industries it has to adapt to changes - to not do so means that at its worst it will no longer exist, while at its best become an irrelevance.

As an example, an RTE in 2019 whose radio network had Radio 1 on 567kHz as its main broadcasting outlet with the only other way to listen being on a time-shared FM network with RnaG with an unreformed 2FM stuck with the same presenters giving an average listener age that would have made that for BBC Radio 1 in the early 90's look like spring chickens, with no other platform to access them (no internet streaming, no podcasts, no DVB-S or DVB-T carriage etc.) and sticking rigidly to linear formats would quite rightly be denounced as dinosaurs that either needed slaying or a complete reorganisation to bring them into 21st century relevance.