So.... Them Paradox games...

ancapailldorcha · 07-07-2019 11:07PM #1

These are really complicated. I mean, really complicated. Ok, I think I have Hearts of Iron 4 down reasonably well but unfortunately, I don't think I am all that keen on the WW2 setting given how many games, films and books are out there on the subject. Cracking game though. Especially the soundtrack.

So I go on to Crusader Kings II. I try the learning scenario after reading some guides and things. I get bored because it's awful as are all Paradox learning scenarios. I started a game in 1066 as my native Tir Connell. I'm 30 years in and haven't conquered a single territory. Apparently, Ireland has the moniker "Tutorial island" or "Noob island". Conquered Tyrone but turns out winning didn't give me Tyrone. Eurgh.

I think I'm picking it up. Usually I'd give up by now as none of the Total War or XCOM games were this complex to pick up. Maybe it's the map or a desire to increase the font of my country name.

Anyway, is it just one of those things where loads of playtime is required for things to make sense?

The Specialist · 07-07-2019 11:11PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

These are really complicated. I mean, really complicated. Ok, I think I have Hearts of Iron 4 down reasonably well but unfortunately, I don't think I am all that keen on the WW2 setting given how many games, films and books are out there on the subject. Cracking game though. Especially the soundtrack.

So I go on to Crusader Kings II. I try the learning scenario after reading some guides and things. I get bored because it's awful as are all Paradox learning scenarios. I started a game in 1066 as my native Tir Connell. I'm 30 years in and haven't conquered a single territory. Apparently, Ireland has the moniker "Tutorial island" or "Noob island". Conquered Tyrone but turns out winning didn't give me Tyrone. Eurgh.

I think I'm picking it up. Usually I'd give up by now as none of the Total War or XCOM games were this complex to pick up. Maybe it's the map or a desire to increase the font of my country name.

Anyway, is it just one of those things where loads of playtime is required for things to make sense?

I’m not a pc gamer but I did pick up Stellaris on PS4 recently made by this crowd - **** me it couldn’t be more impenetrable if it was 90 years old welded shut

I’ve made 7 new games and each time I reach a dead end - a small empire ****ing destroys me in fleet power, I lose research ships to random **** beyond my control, I can’t get enough power or resources so go bankrupt, I build a social welfare nation of pops that doesn’t want to work etc. I’m watching loads of tutorials on YouTube but it’s almost like you need to a PHD in these games to play them properly.

Dave_The_Sheep · 08-07-2019 01:12AM

Haven't found them that difficult to pick up, to be honest. That not to take away from your troubles.

They're worth figuring out though.

08-07-2019 03:49AM

The Specialist wrote: »

I’m not a pc gamer but I did pick up Stellaris on PS4 recently made by this crowd - **** me it couldn’t be more impenetrable if it was 90 years old welded shut I’ve made 7 new games and each time I reach a dead end - a small empire ****ing destroys me in fleet power, I lose research ships to random **** beyond my control, I can’t get enough power or resources so go bankrupt, I build a social welfare nation of pops that doesn’t want to work etc. I’m watching loads of tutorials on YouTube but it’s almost like you need to a PHD in these games to play them properly.

Stellaris is one of the most accessible ones too!

I love the idea of these games but similarly to the OP I've never really been able to crack them. I really don't like the monetization model (****tons of not cheap DLC, some of which changes their games hugely) they use either so I've sort of given up on their games.

08-07-2019 04:20AM

Made a good attempt at EU4 a few years ago and didn't really like it. If I had time to burn, I'd give it another go, but something easy like CIV is more appealing for a few hours.

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 07:00AM

They're games that I look in at from the outside and think they're right up my alley, but the hours of commitment and concentration required, just to understand the key pillars and game loops feels too much. Stellaris is exactly the kind of game I've thought about as a cool idea, but I don't think I'll ever actually play it!

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 11:34AM

The Specialist wrote: »

I’m not a pc gamer but I did pick up Stellaris on PS4 recently made by this crowd - **** me it couldn’t be more impenetrable if it was 90 years old welded shut I’ve made 7 new games and each time I reach a dead end - a small empire ****ing destroys me in fleet power, I lose research ships to random **** beyond my control, I can’t get enough power or resources so go bankrupt, I build a social welfare nation of pops that doesn’t want to work etc. I’m watching loads of tutorials on YouTube but it’s almost like you need to a PHD in these games to play them properly.

Stellaris is supposed to be a user friendly Paradox game!

pixelburp wrote: »

They're games that I look in at from the outside and think they're right up my alley, but the hours of commitment and concentration required, just to understand the key pillars and game loops feels too much. Stellaris is exactly the kind of game I've thought about as a cool idea, but I don't think I'll ever actually play it!

Well.... I may have splurged on all the DLC (including Sunset invasion which literally ruins games as Christian factions) so my sunken cost bias means I'm loathe to just give up.

ZeroThreat · 08-07-2019 02:25PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Stellaris is supposed to be a user friendly Paradox game!

Well.... I may have splurged on all the DLC (including Sunset invasion which literally ruins games as Christian factions) so my sunken cost bias means I'm loathe to just give up.

tbh I think I had more fun in the base game before I bought much of the DLC. Training up the next generation became way more complicated after some of the DLCs not to mention that having retinues made the game too easy from a military standpoint.

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 02:58PM

ZeroThreat wrote: »

tbh I think I had more fun in the base game before I bought much of the DLC. Training up the next generation became way more complicated after some of the DLCs not to mention that having retinues made the game too easy from a military standpoint.

I was under the impression that Paradox release games in very poor states (like Imperator Rome) and then fix them with DLC so I bought the DLC. More fool me.

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 03:00PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Stellaris is supposed to be a user friendly Paradox game!

Well.... I may have splurged on all the DLC (including Sunset invasion which literally ruins games as Christian factions) so my sunken cost bias means I'm loathe to just give up.

... and that's the other reason I stay away

I usually nominate one "God Game" I'll stick with and for better or worse, Civ5 has scratched that "oh god it's 3am" itch. I get there are lots of differences in approach but you get my point ...

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 03:01PM

pixelburp wrote: »

... and that's the other reason I stay away I usually nominate one "God Game" I'll stick with and for better or worse Civ5 has scratched that "oh god it's 3am" itch. I get there are lots of differences in approach but you get my point ...

Was Civ V hard to learn?

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 03:03PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Was Civ V hard to learn?

Nope, though I'm a long time fan of the series so the basics I picked up quick enough by dint of familiarity (Civ5 did switch up some mechanics in pretty major ways, but the principles remained the same). It's one of those games that looks and feels simple, but depth spills out from playing. As opposed to Paradox games where they hit you with about 500 systems from the get-go...

Oh and you absolutely need the two (three?) DLCs as they add some pretty critical features.

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 03:05PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Nope, though I'm a long time fan of the series so the basics I picked up quick enough by dint of familiarity (Civ5 did switch up some mechanics in pretty major ways, but the principles remained the same). It's one of those games that looks and feels simple, but depth spills out from playing. As opposed to Paradox games where they hit you with about 500 systems from the get-go...

Oh and you absolutely need the two (three?) DLCs as they add some pretty critical features.

I think I already own the DLC's. I learned more from Youtube tutorials and Let's Plays about Paradox games than the tutorials for Paradox games. Shockingly bad tutorials. I thought XCOM: EU's had a bit of room for improvement perhaps but the tutorials for the Paradox titles are the same as they were pre-DLC.

tusk · 08-07-2019 03:12PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Was Civ V hard to learn?

Civ 5 was the first I played, and it's not dificult to pick up at all.

a couple of short games to familiarise yourself and you should be grand

Colonel Claptrap · 08-07-2019 03:14PM

I enjoy Paradox games more when I set myself a unique target before setting out. Read up on it, plan ahead, identify your potential enemies.

In CK2 I like to unify Ireland. I've never succeeded in forming an Irish British Empire.

Other targets include: get 3 female rulers in a row.

Unify Spain.

Take over le Blob from the inside.

Become a heretic, take on a new religion and see how far I can spread it.

Play eugenics - try to get a family tree crammed with geniuses.

Insist simulator. Marry a daughter or three.

Ally Scotland with France, and carve up England.

Try playing as a Muslim and observe how different it is to playing as a Christian feudal lord.

Going in with the mindset that I must blob across europe will soon become boring. Set yourself some small targets. Use achievements for inspiration.

Colonel Claptrap · 08-07-2019 03:14PM

Quill18 has excellent tutorial videos for most Paradox games.

tusk · 08-07-2019 03:18PM

any good tutorials for starting CK2? I picked it up months ago, and looked at it for about an hour then got scared and haven't gone back since.

tusk · 08-07-2019 03:19PM

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Quill18 has excellent tutorial videos for most Paradox games.

whoah. you read my mind. Timetraveller!

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 03:21PM

I'd love to see Game Makers Toolkit (or any UX related perspectives) take on the Paradox games, to dissect how / if they can be made more accessible without sacrificing any of the key gameplay pillars. Feels like it should be possible, only needs the right UI/UX heads...

tusk · 08-07-2019 03:24PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd love to see Game Makers Toolkit (or any UX related perspectives) take on the Paradox games, to dissect how / if they can be made more accessible without sacrificing any of the key gameplay pillars. Feels like it should be possible, only needs the right UI/UX heads...

Has that kind of thing been done with other games? Sounds super interesting.

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 04:17PM

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Quill18 has excellent tutorial videos for most Paradox games.

He is excellent. I learnt HoI4 from his videos. Shame he doesn't have one for CK2. Would've went to his birthday party if it wasn't in Edinburgh and I didn't find out a day before.

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 06:59PM

tusk wrote: »

Has that kind of thing been done with other games? Sounds super interesting.

Not that I'm aware of; occasional remasters might tighten up interfaces but I've never heard of a remake that wholesale changed the UI. Paradox seem like a studio crying out for some better engagement flows. GMT tend toward more action looped games, not sure how you'd even begin to unravel a more data driven game like Crusader Kings et al...

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 07:00PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of; occasional remasters might tighten up interfaces but I've never heard of a remake that wholesale changed the UI. Paradox seem like a studio crying out for some better engagement flows. GMT tend toward more action looped games, not sure how you'd even begin to unravel a more data driven game like Crusader Kings et al...

How do you mean "data driven?"

I think most of these titles, if not all are too old and too niche to benefit from such a remaster.

pixelburp · 08-07-2019 07:38PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How do you mean "data driven?"

I think most of these titles, if not all are too old and too niche to benefit from such a remaster.

I suppose meaning games like Civ, CK et al that are less about moment to moment gameplay loops, and more a slower, thoughtful pace, the data being resource, tech, ancestry, diplomacy management - data

There are a lot of quite complex ideas, that are all upfront pillars of the game, that would be harder to get players to ramp up into than more typical games. If that makes any sense?

ancapailldorcha · 08-07-2019 07:41PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I suppose meaning games like Civ, CK et al that are less about moment to moment gameplay loops, and more a slower, thoughtful pace, the data being resource, tech, ancestry, diplomacy management - data There are a lot of quite complex ideas, that are all upfront pillars of the game, that would be harder to get players to ramp up into than more typical games. If that makes any sense?

It does, yeah. I miss being able to pick just about anything up and have fun with it.

pixelburp · 09-07-2019 08:56AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It does, yeah. I miss being able to pick just about anything up and have fun with it.

Civ5 + DLC definitely lets you just get going; and it's super configurable, you can start with a small map so you're not spending the first 100 turns exploring for 'stuff'. (in fact with really small maps + a lot of other Civs it becomes a bit deathmatch'y

). Civ5's main flaw is that the late game things just grind to a halt, losing that fun momentum & discovery loop from the early stages...

TheValeyard · 09-07-2019 09:01AM

I do enjoy those games. Although I was absolutely terrible at Hearts of Iron IV at the beginning. I played as Germany and invaded Poland. Poland won, and invaded Germany.

While, Stellaris is a magnificent Space Opera, very slow paced (depending on map size) but the level of detail and crisis events keeps the player entertained. Not to mention to vast amount of customisation or style of species you can be, from a simple human, xenophobic Insectoid, a peace loving mushroom, a juvenile, assimilation collective, etc. I also enjoy expanding my empire and taking over other civilizations or spying on pre warp cultures.

tusk · 09-07-2019 10:05AM

FYI for anyone looking to start with Civ...

Civ 5 > Civ 6

pixelburp · 09-07-2019 10:08AM

Yeah, Civ6 really hasn't caught on, has it? I keep waiting for the article or post saying "It's good now guys!" and for a bit that seemed to be the latest expansion for 6, but Civ5 feels like Firaxis built themselves an apex of the series they won't surpass.

tusk · 09-07-2019 10:10AM

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, Civ6 really hasn't caught on, has it? I keep waiting for the article or post saying "It's good now guys!" and for a bit that seemed to be the latest expansion for 6, but Civ5 feels like Firaxis built themselves an apex of the series they won't surpass.

Some of the new mechanics in 6 were really good, but I could never put my finger on what it was that made me keep wanting to play 5 instead.

ancapailldorcha · 09-07-2019 10:34AM

I tried Civ V once. Tutorial made me pick Moscow. I'd no idea what I was doing and the game had a million start options so I never went back to it.

So.... Them Paradox games...

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