America kills its 1,500th citizen

Time · 21-06-2019 11:29PM

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

Like I said, it's not impossible for it to happen. People have been framed before and a plethora of evidence pointed the finger at an innocent person. That's why the death penalty is an absolute no go.

That same argument could be made against the justice system as a whole if you believe that all evidence can be faked. The point is that it is so unlikely and technically difficult for DNA, CCTV, phone records, and a confession to be forged simultaneously, that it is virtually an impossibility. Theres nothing to say it can't be raised as a defence, but if it is then the then the burden of proof must be shifted to the accused, the same as it is for a plea of insanity. The argument that you can't prove someone wasn't insane is not accepted so why would a similar argument be accepted for murder?

Personal disagreements with the death penalty are one thing, but arguing that procedurally it's flawed, or that its more expensive are all poor arguments against it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 22-06-2019 01:57AM

Time wrote: »

That same argument could be made against the justice system as a whole if you believe that all evidence can be faked. The point is that it is so unlikely and technically difficult for DNA, CCTV, phone records, and a confession to be forged simultaneously, that it is virtually an impossibility. Theres nothing to say it can't be raised as a defence, but if it is then the then the burden of proof must be shifted to the accused, the same as it is for a plea of insanity. The argument that you can't prove someone wasn't insane is not accepted so why would a similar argument be accepted for murder?

Personal disagreements with the death penalty are one thing, but arguing that procedurally it's flawed, or that its more expensive are all poor arguments against it.

20 innocent lives were almost taken in the USA alone in less than 30 years, and that's just death-row. does that not represent a flawed system? Does that not show you how wrong the death penalty is or how the judicial system can get it very wrong from time to time?

I guess they are just collateral damage.

Checkmate19 · 22-06-2019 02:52AM

the death penalty is wrong we all know that. simples.

Checkmate19 · 22-06-2019 02:53AM

Life for murder.

Manic Moran · 22-06-2019 03:39AM

mynamejeff wrote: »

the only thing abhorrent about it is it took so long to put him to death , that bit is a bit cruel . should be done quickly as possible

This hit the Supreme Court earlier this year, the justices are getting a bit irked with delaying legal tactics. "Hang on. You guys knew that the needle was going to be the method for the last ten years while you were doing the appeals process. And you're only suing over the method the week before your schedule date?"

In California a few years ago, opposition to the death penalty was growing, but depending on your side, you either claimed it was because of moral objection to the death penalty, or it was because the process took so damned long, it was too expensive and needed to be cut to save money. So a few years ago (2016?), they put both options on the same ballot, may the highest score win. The "speed it up" measure got more votes than the "abolish the death penalty" one did.

Zaph · 22-06-2019 05:48PM

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

Over 20 people in the states have been pardoned from death row as new DNA evidence has proven them to be innocent.

Taking everything into account, not just DNA evidence, 165 people have been freed from death row in the States since 1973.

Time · 22-06-2019 10:32PM

Justin Millions Mink wrote: »

20 innocent lives were almost taken in the USA alone in less than 30 years, and that's just death-row. does that not represent a flawed system? Does that not show you how wrong the death penalty is or how the judicial system can get it very wrong from time to time?

I guess they are just collateral damage.

It doesn't show me anything that can't be said about the justice system generally. People get wrongly convicted all the time, take a trip down to the local district court and you'll see at least one case a day where a person is hard done by, but when there's 200 cases to get through its its inevitable, but that the price that's paid for the best workable system possible.

shamrock55 · 23-06-2019 11:25AM

Can't believe it's only 1500 since 1976, that's only 34 per year, jesus they'd want to step it up a bit

Yurt2 · 23-06-2019 11:36AM

As not having the death-penalty is a condition of EU membership, anyone want to pipe up and say they're willing to ditch the EU in favour of reinstituting capital punishment?

Queue some guy posting: "I'd leave the EU; bring in the death penalty; put dole scum in workhouses; get rid of de forridners; and send 'the so called homeless' to Rockall."

*Primordial guttural scream*

Gael23 · 08-07-2019 02:03PM

I think if a death sentence wasn’t carried out in such a peaceful manner it may actually serve as a deterrent.
Being injected with poison doesn’t cause much suffering

08-07-2019 02:30PM

Gael23 wrote: »

Anyway clearly after killing 1500 people, execution isn’t a deterrent clearly

I am neither pro or anti death penalty as I have never really sat down and thought it through. But still I am not sure I am following your reasoning here.

Surely you need more statistics than that single one - to reach that conclusion? The conclusion does not follow from the single data point at all.

Bigbagofcans · 08-07-2019 02:40PM

A convicted murderer in the US has been diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer.

I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone but I won't shed a tear for this guy. They shouldn't even be giving him medical treatment.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Jesse-Matthew-Convicted-Killer-of-Virginia-College-Students-Hannah-Graham-and-Morgan-Harrington-Has-Cancer-510279871.html

Feisar · 08-07-2019 03:23PM

Checkmate19 wrote: »

the death penalty is wrong we all know that. simples.

Fascists like myself don't see it that way! Some crimes or repeat criminals need to be permanently removed from society. You use the word "wrong" there as if this is some sort of moral right/wrong issue. It's not.

branie2 · 08-07-2019 05:56PM

No need for the death penality

JJayoo · 08-07-2019 06:59PM

Death penalty is stupidly expensive, get the fcukers to do 30 years of labour in the prison with the money generated going to a good cause

Edgware · 08-07-2019 07:01PM

Gael23 wrote: »

Late last night the United States ended the life of its 1500th citizen since the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1976. No sign of the intentional killing stopping
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/20/18692915/marion-wilson-death-penalty-georgia-1500-execution-us-1976

CONGRATULATIONS. BURN BABY BURN

madalig12 · 08-07-2019 07:01PM

Last week tonight with John Oliver done an epsiode on Lethal Injections this season. Worth a watch.

whisky_galore · 08-07-2019 07:27PM

Interesting that the most vocal death penalty people in the US are also Pro Life.

Gael23 · 08-07-2019 07:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am neither pro or anti death penalty as I have never really sat down and thought it through. But still I am not sure I am following your reasoning here.

Surely you need more statistics than that single one - to reach that conclusion? The conclusion does not follow from the single data point at all.

Getting an injection of poison to kill you doesn’t cause that much suffering to the condemned. To the most twisted criminals it’s like getting a flu injection and it’s all over. If they had to suffer in front of a firing squad or inside the gas chamber it might act as more of a deterrent

Manic Moran · 08-07-2019 07:53PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Interesting that the most vocal death penalty people in the US are also Pro Life.

They believe that the unborn has not yet done anything to forfeit its right to life.

Zaph · 08-07-2019 09:00PM

Gael23 wrote: »

I think if a death sentence wasn’t carried out in such a peaceful manner it may actually serve as a deterrent.
Being injected with poison doesn’t cause much suffering

I'm not exactly sure where you got that idea. It's been repeatedly shown that execution by lethal injection can be easily botched as those carrying it out are not medical professionals, and generally results in severe pain and suffering to the condemned prisoner. Plenty of examples (and for other execution methods) here.

Edgware · 08-07-2019 10:04PM

Zaph wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure where you got that idea. It's been repeatedly shown that execution by lethal injection can be easily botched as those carrying it out are not medical professionals, and generally results in severe pain and suffering to the condemned prisoner. Plenty of examples (and for other execution methods) here.

All the better for the bastards

joe40 · 09-07-2019 12:18AM

Gael23 wrote: »

Getting an injection of poison to kill you doesn’t cause that much suffering to the condemned. To the most twisted criminals it’s like getting a flu injection and it’s all over. If they had to suffer in front of a firing squad or inside the gas chamber it might act as more of a deterrent

Yes it does. Another poster mentioned a recent john oliver programme on that very point.
Whatever your view of capital punishment, lethal injection is not an easy option.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 09-07-2019 12:21AM

In my opinion if you are going to do the death penalty do it.

No need to wait around with someone on Death Row for 22 years.

The waiting on Death Row is imo more inhumane than the death penalty.

joe40 · 09-07-2019 12:39AM

The death penalty is simply obscene. Every single western democracy that support freedom and fairness have long abandoned the death penalty, with one exception, the USA.
They along with countries like China and Saudi Arabia defend the practice.
And some people have the gall to talk about western values while at the same time supporting this medieval practice.
The deterrent argument has been lost.

TheRepentent · 09-07-2019 01:04AM

I'm against it.

There's something inherently wrong with a "state" executing one of their citzens.

And secondly get it wrong once and you have killed an inocent person

Zaph · 09-07-2019 01:16AM

joe40 wrote: »

The death penalty is simply obscene. Every single western democracy that support freedom and fairness have long abandoned the death penalty, with one exception, the USA.
They along with countries like China and Saudi Arabia defend the practice.
And some people have the gall to talk about western values while at the same time supporting this medieval practice.
The deterrent argument has been lost.

While technically not a western democracy, Japan is the only other industrialised nation that still uses the death penalty. While they don't use it as frequently as the US, their custom of keeping prisoners on death row for years, or even decades, and not telling them when their execution date is until the morning of it is barbaric for the psychological torture that it inflicts on prisoners. Imagine waking up every morning for 20+ years not knowing if that day was going to be your last?

Tokyo · 09-07-2019 01:29AM

Moved from AH > CA

Kimsang · 09-07-2019 03:49AM

joe40 wrote: »

The death penalty is simply obscene. Every single western democracy that support freedom and fairness have long abandoned the death penalty, with one exception, the USA.
They along with countries like China and Saudi Arabia defend the practice.
And some people have the gall to talk about western values while at the same time supporting this medieval practice.
The deterrent argument has been lost.

I agree with you, but the comparison to Saudi Arabia and China is simply unfair.

At least in the US they don't harvest the organs of their prisoners like in China.

Citation 1 2 3

Or how in Saudi Arabia they seemed to have lied about prisoners pleading guilty.
Citation
Or the Saudis rely on information extracted during torture:
Citation

“The use of the death penalty is always appalling but it is even more shocking when it is applied after unfair trials or against people who were under 18 at the time of the crime, in flagrant violation of international law,”

There are different levels to this.

09-07-2019 06:09AM

Gael23 wrote: »

Getting an injection of poison to kill you doesn’t cause that much suffering to the condemned.

That's a different point entirely to the one I was questioning though. You said that the fact we have killed 1500 people in this way shows that it is not a deterrent. I am not sure I follow the reasoning on that one.

That conclusion simply does not seem to follow from that statistic is all.

America kills its 1,500th citizen

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