Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

murphaph wrote:

There is no European army but I for one would welcome the idea. We currently rely on the mood swings of Donald J. Trump should Vladimir Putin become aggressive towards us. That is not a good situation to find ourselves in. We should be able to defend ourselves in the EU.

Especially if you claim "neutrality" while outsourcing your defence to the UK, a country which previously ruined Ireland (with consequences until today), and also ruined many of other countries. The English government generally (at any time) cannot be trusted.

So you have:
Increasingly hostile Russia
Isolationist and unstable USA
The rise of China
Lack of own defence capability
Outsourcing defence to untrustworthy partner

Very bad idea to be showing off as 'neutral' and undermining attempts for moves towards the EU army.

Neutrality is possible but with high military engagement and spending, such country needs to be able to defend itself, see Switzerland. Ireland is in no such place.

McGiver wrote: »

Neutrality is possible but with high military engagement and spending, such country needs to be able to defend itself, see Switzerland. Ireland is in no such place.

Swiss people I have spoken with laughed at the idea that their part time army of weekend warriors defends the country.

The banks defend Switzerland.

The argument put forward here appears to say that people in EU countries want a Federal Europe because a couple of countries were "asked" (and all ignored) with text put before their populations.

Of course even if views were not ignored most people are not diplomats so presenting them with 100's of pages of diplomatic text is never right.

Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.

This will all end in tears.

Next to go in my view is Italy. Almost cast iron guaranteed. The eastern bloc of countries really are not going to last in the EU either.

It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.

I would not have wanted to leave up until recently but I'm angered by the attitude and dismissal of those of us in Ireland and across the EU with real concerns about the direction of travel.

I don't believe a majority in Ireland or Europe want a Federal EU at all. It's mind boggling imbecility to persue something like that against the will of the public.

Only thing to do is have Europe wide referendum in each country asking whether they want a Federal Europe.

Otherwise the EU will be broken up as countries leave anyway.

J Mysterio wrote: »

The audience actually applauding. Theres little hope for them now. Unbelievable.

The QT audience is fixed.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The argument put forward here appears to say that people in EU countries want a Federal Europe because a couple of countries were "asked" (and all ignored) with text put before their populations.

Of course even if views were not ignored most people are not diplomats so presenting them with 100's of pages of diplomatic text is never right.

Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.

This will all end in tears.

Next to go in my view is Italy. Almost cast iron guaranteed. The eastern bloc of countries really are not going to last in the EU either.

It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.

I would not have wanted to leave up until recently but I'm angered by the attitude and dismissal of those of us in Ireland and across the EU with real concerns about the direction of travel.

I don't believe a majority in Ireland or Europe want a Federal EU at all. It's mind boggling imbecility to persue something like that against the will of the public.

Only thing to do is have Europe wide referendum in each country asking whether they want a Federal Europe.

Otherwise the EU will be broken up as countries leave anyway.

Well, one of the main reasons why the Visegrad group was set up was to integrate those four countries further into the EU. Pro EU sentiment in Italy has increased by 5% in the past year. Britain will be a basket case economically, politically and socially for many years because of Brexit.

But let's say that Britain, Italy and the Visegrad nations leave. It would still be in Ireland's interest to be further integrated in a reduced EU comprising Germany, France, Spain, Benelux and Scandinavia.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.

If the UK were successful after Brexit, this still wouldn't be true. The EU is a peace project, a political one started to prevent war in Europe, and the UK turning into Singapore-on-Thames won't change that.


But even the Brexiteers know the UK will not be successful. Rees-Mogg will bank a fortune when it crashes, and is predicting maybe 50 years before the UK sees a dividend from Brexit.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The QT audience is fixed.

I thought the audience was a 'representative sample' of the local populace. From what I can see, the great majority were applauding <SNIP. No insults please>, and this was broadcast to the nation.

Arguments about democracy, whatever, but this was just a nasty, mean-spirited and idiotic little diatribe about how the EU should basically not exist.

J Mysterio wrote: »

I thought the audience was a 'representative sample' of the local populace. From what I can see, the great majority were applauding <SNIP. No insults please>, and this was broadcast to the nation.

No, the audience is loaded to a notional national level irrespective of the local area. Why they bother to tour QT is beyond me. In fact, why they still bother with QT is beyond me

I find QT to be an excellent regional indicator , look at the huge differences between scotland QTs, london ones, and rural UK ones

Last week Boris Johnson delivered a speech to a Royal Horticultural Society audience in Wisley, Surrey, before heading to the affluent village of Oxshott to buy some fennel and tarragon sausages and have a cup of tea in the Munch and Wiggles cafe. In a series of interviews later that day, he was unwilling to reveal the provenance of the staged photograph of him and his partner, Carrie Symonds.

He was, however, able to insist that Britain would leave the European Union, “do or die”, by the end of October.

On the same day, the Sutton Trust and the Social Mobility Commission issued a report into elitism in Britain that “paints a picture of a country whose power structures are dominated by a narrow section of the population [where] social mobility is low and not improving”.

Those who went to private school comprise 7 per cent of the country’s population but 39 per cent of the elite; those who went to Oxford or Cambridge university comprise less than 1 per cent of the population but 24 per cent of the elite. Senior judges, junior ministers, permanent secretaries and diplomats are among the least representative professions. But the media, and particularly newspaper columnists, are right up there, too.

There is a clear and undeniable link between the entrenched and calcifying class stratification in British society and the inept chaos in which we currently find ourselves. The gene puddle from which the elite siphons its ranks has become shallow and fetid. Those who make the laws in government, oversee the civil service that will implement them, adjudicate on them in court or assess them in newspapers, are drawn from such a narrow social layer that they might as well be the same person.

Even when they do not form a majority, their critical mass is such that they set the tone, define the culture and shape the parameters for what is institutionally permissible.

This was never healthy and always absurd. But recently it has become untenable. The prime minister who got us into this Brexit mess a few years back went to the same school and joined the same supper club at the same university as the person who will most likely be prime minister in a few weeks’ time. Nobody thinks that is an uncanny coincidence. It’s how Britain works. It’s also why it’s not working.

“The country’s model of leadership is disintegrating,” wrote the Economist, not known for its Marxist tendencies, in December. “Britain is governed by a self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.”

Gary Younge for The Irish Times

This is a portion of the article, but it's really worth reading in its entirety. Class system can't go on, Britain is broken.