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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

16263656768198

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    McGiver wrote: »
    Neutrality is possible but with high military engagement and spending, such country needs to be able to defend itself, see Switzerland. Ireland is in no such place.

    Swiss people I have spoken with laughed at the idea that their part time army of weekend warriors defends the country.

    The banks defend Switzerland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,892 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    McGiver wrote: »
    So you have:
    Increasingly hostile Russia
    Isolationist and unstable USA
    The rise of China
    Lack of own defence capability
    Outsourcing defence to untrustworthy partner

    Veering off on the EU-Army tangent now, but all of the above applies to France and the French army too, which is currently in such dire straits that soldiers on duty in Africa are frequently left without proper food rations. The suggestion that the "great nations" of Europe might club together to create a more cost-efficient and militarily appropriate European Army is nothing more than common sense. And if some citizens of the not-so-great nations want to join up, so what?

    It's rather ironic that the US (see DT's 4th-of-July Phallic Display) and the UK (see Trident and Aircraft Carrier Saga) are so proud of their military might, yet their democratic institutions have been so thoroughly infiltrated and manipulated in recent years by more devious and intelligent players on the world stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,918 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The argument put forward here appears to say that people in EU countries want a Federal Europe because a couple of countries were "asked" (and all ignored) with text put before their populations.

    Of course even if views were not ignored most people are not diplomats so presenting them with 100's of pages of diplomatic text is never right.

    Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.

    This will all end in tears.

    Next to go in my view is Italy. Almost cast iron guaranteed. The eastern bloc of countries really are not going to last in the EU either.

    It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.

    I would not have wanted to leave up until recently but I'm angered by the attitude and dismissal of those of us in Ireland and across the EU with real concerns about the direction of travel.

    I don't believe a majority in Ireland or Europe want a Federal EU at all. It's mind boggling imbecility to persue something like that against the will of the public.

    Only thing to do is have Europe wide referendum in each country asking whether they want a Federal Europe.

    Otherwise the EU will be broken up as countries leave anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Gintonious wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1146902512437514241

    It's going well on Question Time so. Getting the plank from Guideo Fawks on...no wonder the place is a mess.

    Wow, looks like we've really crossed the Rubicon. Where was this episode of QT - Coventry? The audience actually applauding. Theres little hope for them now. Unbelievable.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A federal Europe is not happening, so your entire point is somewhat irrelevant.
    Of course even if views were not ignored most people are not diplomats so presenting them with 100's of pages of diplomatic text is never right.

    Indeed. This is why national parliament's exist in the first place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.


    We have voted more than twice:

    1973: Accession.
    1987: Single European Act.
    1992: Maastricht.
    1998: Amsterdam
    2001: Nice 1
    2002: Nice 2
    2008: Lisbon 1
    2009: Lisbon 2
    2012: Fiscal Compact


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    The audience actually applauding. Theres little hope for them now. Unbelievable.


    The QT audience is fixed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭mrbrianj



    Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.

    This is not true.

    You raise some valid points, some I agree with some I dont, but to run the Brexit line on the intelligence of our electorate is wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    The argument put forward here appears to say that people in EU countries want a Federal Europe because a couple of countries were "asked" (and all ignored) with text put before their populations.

    Of course even if views were not ignored most people are not diplomats so presenting them with 100's of pages of diplomatic text is never right.

    Ireland only voted yes the second time out of fear with people knowing the economy was in trouble.

    This will all end in tears.

    Next to go in my view is Italy. Almost cast iron guaranteed. The eastern bloc of countries really are not going to last in the EU either.

    It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.

    I would not have wanted to leave up until recently but I'm angered by the attitude and dismissal of those of us in Ireland and across the EU with real concerns about the direction of travel.

    I don't believe a majority in Ireland or Europe want a Federal EU at all. It's mind boggling imbecility to persue something like that against the will of the public.

    Only thing to do is have Europe wide referendum in each country asking whether they want a Federal Europe.

    Otherwise the EU will be broken up as countries leave anyway.

    Well, one of the main reasons why the Visegrad group was set up was to integrate those four countries further into the EU. Pro EU sentiment in Italy has increased by 5% in the past year. Britain will be a basket case economically, politically and socially for many years because of Brexit.

    But let's say that Britain, Italy and the Visegrad nations leave. It would still be in Ireland's interest to be further integrated in a reduced EU comprising Germany, France, Spain, Benelux and Scandinavia.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,892 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    It's when the UK is successful ...

    Successful in what way? Do you mean they win WW3 without the help of the Americans? Or they win the World Cup three times in a row? Or that they succeed in swapping two new brown immigrants for every pale Caucaisan they've pushed out?

    So please: define the parameters by which we can judge the UK's success in the future and acknowledge your perspicacity in years to come.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    It's when the UK is successful, and they will be, the edifice will crumble because especially the bigger countries will see that and want that.


    If the UK were successful after Brexit, this still wouldn't be true. The EU is a peace project, a political one started to prevent war in Europe, and the UK turning into Singapore-on-Thames won't change that.


    But even the Brexiteers know the UK will not be successful. Rees-Mogg will bank a fortune when it crashes, and is predicting maybe 50 years before the UK sees a dividend from Brexit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If the UK were successful after Brexit, this still wouldn't be true. The EU is a peace project, a political one started to prevent war in Europe, and the UK turning into Singapore-on-Thames won't change that.


    But even the Brexiteers know the UK will not be successful. Rees-Mogg will bank a fortune when it crashes, and is predicting maybe 50 years before the UK sees a dividend from Brexit.
    . . . a period chosen not because by then he expects the UK to be prospering, but because by then he expects to be dead, and so can't be called on to explain why his prediction has proven bogus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    The QT audience is fixed.


    I thought the audience was a 'representative sample' of the local populace. From what I can see, the great majority were applauding <SNIP. No insults please>, and this was broadcast to the nation.

    Arguments about democracy, whatever, but this was just a nasty, mean-spirited and idiotic little diatribe about how the EU should basically not exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    A reminder for those that think a revoke of A50 is on the cards.

    When voting for A50 in December 2016 498 MPs voted for, with 114 Against
    Every single Conservative MP who voted, voted for A50 invoking BAR ONE

    The single NAY is Ken Clarke

    see https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2017-02-01b.1005.405

    I cant see them turning that iceberg(fatberg ? ) around


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To be fair, the concessions won by Ireland were fairly meaningless, and related to things that weren't in the treaty anyway. i.e. one confirming that abortion policy was a domestic competence. There was some other BS about neutrality too afaik.

    The only meaningful concession that was won was after Nice rejection, that every country got a commissioner. It was an easy sell since most countries were a little miffed by that lost opportunity for patronage, even if it did make the commission more workable.

    They had to be put in because of the disinformation campaign by the No side.
    Their posters claimed all sorts of things.

    I still think that all referendum material (posters, leaflets etc) should have to be approved by the referendum commission


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It appears to be missed in the revulsion of A. Widdicombes tirade that she mentioned colonies revolting against their empires on July 4th - American Independence day, where they celebrate the 1776 declaration against British rule.

    Is the irony lost on everyone?

    By the way, the Brexit Party are not shackled in the EU, just supping the gravy on the train.

    Edit: Of course, she was wrong to describe the divvying out of jobs as being undemocratic. As a former Tory MP, she must have witnessed many queues outside No. 10 as would be and wannerbies queue up to get crumbs or jobs. At least the EU Parliament get to approve the results.


  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Perhaps the fact they were meaningless just serves to highlight the sheer b***** that was being spread by w*******.


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,165 ✭✭✭hometruths


    This could scupper Johnson's plans:
    The Conservatives’ chances of retaining the Brecon and Radnorshire constituency in a byelection at the start of next month have slimmed after other pro-remain parties opted to stand aside to give the Liberal Democrat challenger a free run.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/05/pro-emain-parties-strike-brecon-and-radnorshire-byelection-pact-to-fight-conservatives

    If remain parties get their act together to put 1 candidate in each constituency before a GE they could do very well.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Can we take the Lisbon treaty and financial stuff to a new thread please?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Back to the issue at hand

    We know the DUP are against same-sex marriage in NI

    See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/105075/government-forced-u-turn-mps-given-more-time-same-sex

    We will see how onside they are if these amendments go through or not

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2017-2019/0417/amend/niexec_rm_cwh_0704.1-7.html

    ( the idea being that DUP will pull support , and thus the government, if it goes through ) not getting much press tho


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,574 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Can we take the Lisbon treaty and financial stuff to a new thread please?

    Just done that now.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭IAmTheReign


    schmittel wrote: »
    This could scupper Johnson's plans:



    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/05/pro-emain-parties-strike-brecon-and-radnorshire-byelection-pact-to-fight-conservatives

    If remain parties get their act together to put 1 candidate in each constituency before a GE they could do very well.

    I just saw that myself. I don't get why they couldn't get their act together and do the same during the EU elections but if this is a sign of what will happen if a GE gets called the pro remain parties could clean up with the Cons and the BP splitting the brexit vote.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,287 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    I thought the audience was a 'representative sample' of the local populace. From what I can see, the great majority were applauding <SNIP. No insults please>, and this was broadcast to the nation.

    No, the audience is loaded to a notional national level irrespective of the local area. Why they bother to tour QT is beyond me. In fact, why they still bother with QT is beyond me


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,167 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    No, the audience is loaded to a notional national level irrespective of the local area. Why they bother to tour QT is beyond me. In fact, why they still bother with QT is beyond me

    Problem with QT is that Leave voters are always very loud, opinionated, belligerent and tend to take over the show. It gives the impression that 80 to 90% of the audience are pro-Brexit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    I find QT to be an excellent regional indicator , look at the huge differences between scotland QTs, london ones, and rural UK ones


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    The QT audience is fixed.


    Fixed and dilated more like.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Last week Boris Johnson delivered a speech to a Royal Horticultural Society audience in Wisley, Surrey, before heading to the affluent village of Oxshott to buy some fennel and tarragon sausages and have a cup of tea in the Munch and Wiggles cafe. In a series of interviews later that day, he was unwilling to reveal the provenance of the staged photograph of him and his partner, Carrie Symonds.

    He was, however, able to insist that Britain would leave the European Union, “do or die”, by the end of October.

    On the same day, the Sutton Trust and the Social Mobility Commission issued a report into elitism in Britain that “paints a picture of a country whose power structures are dominated by a narrow section of the population [where] social mobility is low and not improving”.

    Those who went to private school comprise 7 per cent of the country’s population but 39 per cent of the elite; those who went to Oxford or Cambridge university comprise less than 1 per cent of the population but 24 per cent of the elite. Senior judges, junior ministers, permanent secretaries and diplomats are among the least representative professions. But the media, and particularly newspaper columnists, are right up there, too.

    There is a clear and undeniable link between the entrenched and calcifying class stratification in British society and the inept chaos in which we currently find ourselves. The gene puddle from which the elite siphons its ranks has become shallow and fetid. Those who make the laws in government, oversee the civil service that will implement them, adjudicate on them in court or assess them in newspapers, are drawn from such a narrow social layer that they might as well be the same person.

    Even when they do not form a majority, their critical mass is such that they set the tone, define the culture and shape the parameters for what is institutionally permissible.

    This was never healthy and always absurd. But recently it has become untenable. The prime minister who got us into this Brexit mess a few years back went to the same school and joined the same supper club at the same university as the person who will most likely be prime minister in a few weeks’ time. Nobody thinks that is an uncanny coincidence. It’s how Britain works. It’s also why it’s not working.

    “The country’s model of leadership is disintegrating,” wrote the Economist, not known for its Marxist tendencies, in December. “Britain is governed by a self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.”

    Gary Younge for The Irish Times

    This is a portion of the article, but it's really worth reading in its entirety. Class system can't go on, Britain is broken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    But so what ? It's easy to point at that. At the moment if a GE was held the Brexit equation would swing even harder to Brexit as parties would have to try and out-Brexit each other but thats not a function of the toffs at the top


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,755 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    It is being entirely driven by the toffs at the top. The sudden concern for democracy, yet no one voted for No Deal TM was not even voted for by her own party.

    Party manifestos are regularly ignored because of circumstances. But somehow, suddenly failure to deliver on a vague question imperils the whole of democracy!

    This whole mess is entirely down to internal Tory infighting, so endemic that they couldn't even agree on how to leave.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Swiss people I have spoken with laughed at the idea that their part time army of weekend warriors defends the country.

    But those are only reserves. RoI has none such.
    The banks defend Switzerland.
    Yes, partially.

    Military personnel, total, % of labour force
    RoI - 9,000 (3.86%)
    CH - 21,000 (4.27%)

    Military spending
    RoI - $1b
    CH - $4.6b

    The RoI deficit is clear especially in spending, infrastructure and active reserves, but anyway...

    /OT


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Podge_irl wrote:
    A federal Europe is not happening, so your entire point is somewhat irrelevant.
    This is the main point. It is moving towards that point but it is not imminent at all, realistically decades away and also all members will have to agree and I can see only small incremental slow steps being taken, like we have seen in last 30 years.

    And if some sort of con-federation finally happens, given the complexity, variety and history, I can predict a Swiss type of a looser federation where federal government controls 10% of gdp at most, and individual states set their own budgets, taxation, legislation, police etc.

    To compare budgets of the following 'federal governments':
    Current EU budget - <1% GDP
    Swiss federal government - 11% GDP
    Canadian federal government - 20% GDP
    US federal government - 40% GDP


  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Instead, the EU passed this. The ‘Articles’ are the bit which are actually law. The 14 paragraphs under “whereas” are just explanation. So note Article 2 on the third and final page of the document (no one else seems to have). Here is what it says:

    “This decision shall cease to apply on 31 May 2019 in the event that the United Kingdom has not held elections to the European Parliament in accordance with applicable Union law and has not ratified the Withdrawal Agreement by 22 May 2019.”

    The vital words are in bold here, but not (sadly) in the original. Have we ratified the Withdrawal Agreement? Nope. That means that this second extension of time ceased to apply, as it says, on the 31 May. So according to EU law, we’ve gone. We’ve been outside the EU, without a WA or an Free Trade Agreement, for a whole month and we’re still not all dead yet. Remarkable.

    Charles Day - Spectator - 05.07.19

    So does that mean that the Brexit discussion is now ended and we have "no deal"?

    "This" is https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019D0584&from=PT


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,287 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The Scottish hustings for the Tory leadership guys tonight and Hunt comes out with this bit of democracy in action

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/1147176630843953152


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    The Scottish hustings for the Tory leadership guys tonight and Hunt comes out with this bit of democracy in action

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/1147176630843953152

    Even Boris wasn't stupid enough to explicitly rule it out. He knows that just strengthens the waverers who will go to the SNP when being faced with an English Toff telling Scottish people they can't have something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    Charles Day - Spectator - 05.07.19

    So does that mean that the Brexit discussion is now ended and we have "no deal"?
    As neither the UK not the EU nor third countries think so, who gives a sh*t?


  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    fash wrote: »
    As neither the UK not the EU nor third countries think so, who gives a sh*t?


    Everyone can think you've bought a house but if the law says that you haven't then you should be bothered, or is this a little subtle for you?


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Charles Day - Spectator - 05.07.19

    So does that mean that the Brexit discussion is now ended and we have "no deal"?

    "This" is https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019D0584&from=PT
    The UK did hole elections and has elected a new match of MEPs, so accordingly the UK are still in the running.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,782 ✭✭✭brickster69


    The UK did hole elections and has elected a new match of MEPs, so accordingly the UK are still in the running.

    And is a small word.

    This decision shall cease to apply on 31 May 2019 in the event that the United Kingdom has not held elections to the
    European Parliament in accordance with applicable Union law and has not ratified the Withdrawal Agreement
    by 22 May 2019.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    And is a small word.

    This decision shall cease to apply on 31 May 2019 in the event that the United Kingdom has not held elections to the European Parliament in accordance with applicable Union law and has not ratified the Withdrawal Agreement by 22 May 2019.


    Good spot, thanks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Swiss people I have spoken with laughed at the idea that their part time army of weekend warriors defends the country.

    The banks defend Switzerland.

    If the Swiss people think banks defend them, then you should have laughed at them.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And is a small word.

    This decision shall cease to apply on 31 May 2019 in the event that the United Kingdom has not held elections to the
    European Parliament in accordance with applicable Union law and has not ratified the Withdrawal Agreement
    by 22 May 2019.
    This means that they have to satisfy both conditions for the decision to cease to apply, they have satisfied one condition but not the other.
    They did not ratify the withdrawal agreement but they did hold elections.
    So therefore the conditions that cancel the agreement do not apply, the agreement is still in place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Scottish hustings for the Tory leadership guys tonight and Hunt comes out with this bit of democracy in action

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/1147176630843953152

    Not surprising really. Classic Tory arrogance. Will likely only further motivate and strengthen the movement for a second independence referendum in Scotland if brexit does indeed official come to pass October 31.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,167 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    eire4 wrote: »
    Not surprising really. Classic Tory arrogance. Will likely only further motivate and strengthen the movement for a second independence referendum in Scotland if brexit does indeed official come to pass October 31.

    "I'm a democrat and I remember that in that independence referendum, the SNP very clearly said that this would settle the outcome for a generation and I think they need to be true to what they promised the Scottish electorate, just as we are true to what we promised the British electorate in delivering Brexit."

    This absolute garbage again. A country can hold one, two, five or ten referendums on the same subject if it so desires.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,287 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Strazdas wrote: »
    "I'm a democrat and I remember that in that independence referendum, the SNP very clearly said that this would settle the outcome for a generation and I think they need to be true to what they promised the Scottish electorate, just as we are true to what we promised the British electorate in delivering Brexit."

    This absolute garbage again. A country can hold one, two, five or ten referendums on the same subject if it so desires.

    You see the SNP did not say what the Tories claim they said, Salmond said in an interview with Marr in 2014 that it was 'in my opinion and it is just my opinion' and 'it is my view'


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And no one can deny the change to the landscape, since IndyRef


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,167 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    You see the SNP did not say what the Tories claim they said, Salmond said in an interview with Marr in 2014 that it was 'in my opinion and it is just my opinion' and 'it is my view'

    It's funny how these 'will of the people' merchants actually despise referendums. As soon as one goes their way, they become violently opposed to ever holding another one again and even claim it would be 'undemocratic'.

    They are authoritarians in fact and see referendums as merely a tool that can be cynically used to get their way.

    The Brexit crowd are the least democratic people in the UK, not the most.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    Everyone can think you've bought a house but if the law says that you haven't then you should be bothered, or is this a little subtle for you?
    After 12 years the house is mine anyway by adverse possession - nicely illustrating the general point that even if there were some "Freeman of the land" style twisted interpretation through which you can argue that the UK has already left, it doesn't matter because the relevant actors act in accordance the UK not having left.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,952 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Strazdas wrote:
    It's funny how these 'will of the people' merchants actually despise referendums. As soon as one goes their way, they become violently opposed to ever holding another one again and even claim it would be 'undemocratic'.
    It doesn't matter which sides win a referendum, they will not want another one. It's ridiculous to use that argument against anybody.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭Tropheus


    Good piece by Marina Hyde in The Guardian.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/05/ann-widdecomb-political-exhumation-insult-ignorance-brexit-party?CMP=share_btn_tw
    Ann Widdecombe’s political exhumation adds insult to ignorance in Strasbourg


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Article in the independent.co.uk where junker wants to do away with the veto on tax. That won't help the remain side. It certainly won't help us either.


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