Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 1:42pm

Berserker wrote: »

What has that got to do with that speech? Other members, the Christian democrats for example, would share that believe. Brexit aside, does she have a valid point? The elected representatives in there barely get a chance to make a point. What can you say in 1 min 30 seconds?
.

Anyone who believes that homosexuality is an illness that can be cured is an idiot or a liar. It's important to know the intelligence and character of a person when you are listening to their political speeches.

J Mysterio · 04-07-2019 1:44pm

Rather amusing that Brexit was initially to happen for April Fools Day and is now scheduled to take place on Halloween: the day the dead roam free in our plain of existence.

Hurrache · 04-07-2019 1:45pm

Berserker wrote: »

And the BP does?

You're the one that claimed they shared the same view, now you're moving the goalposts to try make yourself a bit less wrong.

Berserker wrote: »

Nothing short of blind loyalty to the EU to suggest that she doesn't. Non-BP members of the parliament have voiced their concerns about this time and time again.

You can argue against the facts all you want, again it doesn't make you less wrong in your assertions.

But then again, the poor UK have been oppressed and just want to shake their shackles no matter what.

Kalyke · 04-07-2019 1:47pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"...colonies rising up against their imperial oppressors..."

May I refer Ms Widdecombe to 1798, 1803 and 1916...

That noise you heard there was the last of the goodwill exiting stage left. Not a hope they're getting an extension in October.

Considering how the UK is electing there PM, she has some neck criticizing the EU
for their undemocratic methods for choosing their leaders!

Hurrache · 04-07-2019 1:47pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"...colonies rising up against their imperial oppressors..."

May I refer Ms Widdecombe to 1798, 1803 and 1916...

That noise you heard there was the last of the goodwill exiting stage left. Not a hope they're getting an extension in October.

Verhostadt is entertained.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1146752235176714241

nc6000 · 04-07-2019 1:49pm

black forest wrote: »

I am a bit lost for words.

And this is to be continued till end of October at least? There is no logic behind it except for religious BP believers. The poor EU parlamentariens who have to endure that.

Why are they so obsessed with fishing and fishing rights? My understanding is that the whole fishing industry is only a fraction of a percent of their GDP.

Berserker · 04-07-2019 1:49pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Anyone who believes that homosexuality is an illness that can be cured is an idiot or a liar.

I think that they are wrong. Doesn't make them an idiot and it certainly doesn't make them a liar.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's important to know the intelligence and character of a person when you are listening to their political speeches.

Are we going to discount every individual who agrees with her? Might want to think about that again.

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 1:51pm

I think a lot of EU countries will be nodding their heads and saying to themselves "Now I see where you're coming from, Ireland, now I see."

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2019 1:51pm

Berserker wrote: »

I think that they are wrong. Doesn't make them an idiot and it certainly doesn't make them a liar.

Are we going to discount every individual who agrees with her? Might want to think about that again.

Thought about it. Yes we are.

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2019 1:57pm

Berserker wrote: »

I think that they are wrong. Doesn't make them an idiot and it certainly doesn't make them a liar.

Are you for real?

Anyone who thinks homosexuality is an illness is an idiot, a liar at best and a bigot at worst.

To have an opinion is one thing. To defend a bigot is another. And you sir, are defending bigotry.

FrancieBrady · 04-07-2019 1:57pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think a lot of EU countries will be nodding their heads and saying to themselves "Now I see where you're coming from, Ireland, now I see."

There was a reason why republicans thought that Ian Paisley Snr in full bigotted flow, was an advantage to them.

Let Ann speak for as long as she wants imo. Much better to have this kind of thinking out in the open.

trellheim · 04-07-2019 1:58pm

May I refer Ms Widdecombe to 1798, 1803 and 1916...

That noise you heard there was the last of the goodwill exiting stage left. Not a hope they're getting an extension in October.

From a Brexit party point of view that is exactly on-point, on message, and in the middle of the road. do NOT forget this !

Hypothetically

1. Any kind of deal that is not the WA will require time to agree post Oct-31
2. it takes two sides to want to do a deal
3. This is alienating one of the sides that might want to do a deal
4. Therefore a chance of exiting the EU on 31 October increases
5. Thus such behaviour is justified and even warranted.

( Whether or not you believe this is in line with the UK's best interests, is, of course, subjective in the extreme).

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2019 1:59pm

Kalyke wrote: »

Considering how the UK is electing there PM, she has some neck criticizing the EU
for their undemocratic methods for choosing their leaders!

Considering how the UK do almost everything she has some neck.

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2019 2:02pm

trellheim wrote: »

From a Brexit party point of view that is exactly on-point, on message, and in the middle of the road. do NOT forget this !

Hypothetically

1. Any kind of deal that is not the WA will require time to agree post Oct-31
2. it takes two sides to want to do a deal
3. This is alienating one of the sides that might want to do a deal
4. Therefore a chance of exiting the EU on 31 October increases
5. Thus such behaviour is justified and even warranted.

( Whether or not you believe this is in line with the UK's best interests, is, of course, subjective in the extreme).

You're quite correct but given the stasis in Britain since the last extension, to be frank, I'm looking forward to the end of this nonsense.

They deserve EVERYTHING they get.

Thankfully, it'll hasten the demise of the UK.

Mezcita · 04-07-2019 2:06pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Not a hope they're getting an extension in October.

I'm not so sure. The last extension was given even though it was fairly obvious the UK would have no clearer idea about the type of Brexit they wanted. They are still in the exact same situation. Each extension brings the UK closer to a possible election where the situation would change.

How Boris would spin another extension request is another thing though....

robinph · 04-07-2019 2:11pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

"...colonies rising up against their imperial oppressors..."

May I refer Ms Widdecombe to 1798, 1803 and 1916...

That noise you heard there was the last of the goodwill exiting stage left. Not a hope they're getting an extension in October.

Thankfully it won't be the Brexit party that will be asking for an extension if it comes to that.

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2019 2:13pm

Mezcita wrote: »

I'm not so sure. The last extension was given even though it was fairly obvious the UK would have no clearer idea about the type of Brexit they wanted. They are still in the exact same situation. Each extension brings the UK closer to a possible election where the situation would change.

How Boris would spin another extension request is another thing though....

They were told not to waste this extension. Again. They wasted it. Again.

Everyone is bored of them. Even Michael D stuck his oar in yesterday.

We're all over it now. They have had plenty of chances so unless the prospect of a second referendum or GE materialises between now and October 31, then it's game over.

ancapailldorcha · 04-07-2019 2:15pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We're all over it now. They have had plenty of chances so unless the prospect of a second referendum or GE materialises between now and October 31, then it's game over.

It's too late for either. I'd say the likeliest outcome is Parliament taking control again and unilaterally revoking Article 50 though that might complicate things.

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2019 2:17pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's too late for either. I'd say the likeliest outcome is Parliament taking control again and unilaterally revoking Article 50 though that might complicate things.

I said prospect. If a GE or referendum is called before 31/10 then they'll get an extension I would wager.

ambro25 · 04-07-2019 2:21pm

Mezcita wrote: »

I'm not so sure. The last extension was given even though it was fairly obvious the UK would have no clearer idea about the type of Brexit they wanted. They are still in the exact same situation. Each extension brings the UK closer to a possible election where the situation would change.

How Boris would spin another extension request is another thing though....

There's been one extension, and the evidence at hand is that the UK has done the exact reverse -with some vigour, at that- of what the EU granted the extension for: to make internal progress, politically, towards a mutually-beneficial, negotiated resolution.

Instead, the UK has managed to retrograde, relative to the political situation as of 29 March 2019. Further, by the evidence of recent polls, the outcome of GE would be less predictable than ever, i.e. still more uncertainty for all concerned, including the EU27 and Barnier.

One could justifiably argue, that the UK is already a political basket-case, and a couple quarters' worth of negative growth's away from becoming an economic one.

Against that backdrop, given the Statutes in play under which a GE could not happen until 2022, I don't see how a further extension would guarantee any progress advantageous to the EU, relative to cushioning a no-deal as best the EU27 can under their repective levels of preparedness.

I get the political capital cost to the EU of, effectively, 'kicking' the UK out by binning a further extension. But years on from the ref by the time end October comes, assuming nothing has changed in the UK (why assume different?) and Boris has done exactly what we expect him to (bluster, come home empty handed, blame), still with no guarantee of a GE occurring any earlier than 2022, the flipside political capital gained out of showing decisiveness in the face of unending clownery should not be underestimated.

robinph · 04-07-2019 2:25pm

Did just get yet another voter registration form through the post today, I'm sure we've had more of these in the last couple of years than ever before. Think we had one back at the beginning of the year, but you'd normally only get them every 4 years or so. I guess they are just taking advantage of the lull in proceedings to ensure that the electoral register is up to date in anticipation of another potential flurry of votes in a couple of months.

ancapailldorcha · 04-07-2019 2:26pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I said prospect. If a GE or referendum is called before 31/10 then they'll get an extension I would wager.

Yep. Well caught.

To be honest, I've given up on that for now. Boris Johnson won't last less than a few months. When he eventually crashes and burns, it'll be at the last minute which means begging for another extension or revoking Article 50.

Mezcita · 04-07-2019 2:29pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They were told not to waste this extension. Again. They wasted it. Again.

I agree but the EU is collectively stronger with the UK still being a member state. Therefore the more extensions get triggered, the more likely the UK will just call off the whole thing.

Boris will need to do something drastic if he really is keen on leaving by the 31st of October. Pretty sure he will change his tune once he gets the PM job.

Stop moaning ffs · 04-07-2019 2:29pm

"...colonies rising up against their imperial oppressors..."

Says Anne not realising it’s the 4th of July and America celebrating its independence from Britain

Shelga · 04-07-2019 2:33pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's too late for either. I'd say the likeliest outcome is Parliament taking control again and unilaterally revoking Article 50 though that might complicate things.

I don’t think a majority of MPs would vote to revoke article 50, tbh. It’s far easier to vote to rule out No Deal than it is to vote to overturn the result of the referendum- at least that’s how the rabid Brexiters will spin it.

ancapailldorcha · 04-07-2019 2:35pm

Shelga wrote: »

I don’t think a majority of MPs would vote to revoke article 50, tbh. It’s far easier to vote to rule out No Deal than it is to vote to overturn the result of the referendum- at least that’s how the rabid Brexiters will spin it.

Absolutely but I'm talking late October here when it'll either be revoke or no deal. There won't be any other alternatives. Ruling out no deal is meaningless unless an alternative is proposed. Time has now run out for a People's Vote or a GE unless the EU approves an extension for them.

fly_agaric · 04-07-2019 2:47pm

ambro25 wrote: »

There's been one extension

They are on no. 2 now aren't they??
There was a short one, just a couple of weeks in April. That was going to be extended longer I think if UK parliament actually passed withdrawal agreement (to allow them to get their house in order).
They didn't. So was another EU council meeting about it and a longer extension was given (edit after request from UK).

Unfortunately, I expect if UK come & look for more extensions they will get them almost indefinitely. The leaders of the EU states are (mostly) very cautious. They also find it difficult to agree with each other on large geopolitical things (I'd put relationship with the UK/Brexit in that class).
I can't see them making decision (to finally give the UK the bum's rush out of the EU) even if it might be necessary and really the best thing to do now. Much easier to hope blindly, do nothing & agree to kick the can down the road again for a time.

Boris will probably look for a new extension too once he is PM.
The UK politicians in charge seem to lie just shamelessly all the time now so he'll probably just let the "we're leaving on the 31st October no matter what" promise he made disappear down the memory hole.
He can say of course he really did mean that at the time (during the heat of election fever) but now (as a sober newly minted PM) he sees it is just not possible, so sorry! He can then say he's going to stay in for now, get UK better prepared for Brexit during the next extension, work really hard [unlike Theresa May] on damaging and fracturing the EU from inside etc etc...The Brexiteers in the Conservatives will like that. edit: and I wonder what can they do about it if he is installed as PM & then does an about face/marches everyone back down the hill like that? Provoke an early election?

robinph · 04-07-2019 2:48pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Absolutely but I'm talking late October here when it'll either be revoke or no deal. There won't be any other alternatives. Ruling out no deal is meaningless unless an alternative is proposed. Time has now run out for a People's Vote or a GE unless the EU approves an extension for them.

They have already been in that situation on the cliff edge though and voted down all three possible options of WA, no-deal and revoke. No reason to think they won't do the same again even if it is then just between two choices.

Their daft voting system won't ask the question no-deal v revoke though, it will be no-deal v something and then it will be a completely separate vote of revoke v something. So something will win each time.

Strazdas · 04-07-2019 3:02pm

nc6000 wrote: »

Why are they so obsessed with fishing and fishing rights? My understanding is that the whole fishing industry is only a fraction of a percent of their GDP.

It seems to be some sort of token cause celebre for the British nationalists (goodness knows why).

Mezcita · 04-07-2019 3:05pm

ambro25 wrote: »

I get the political capital cost to the EU of, effectively, 'kicking' the UK out by binning a further extension. But years on from the ref by the time end October comes, assuming nothing has changed in the UK (why assume different?) and Boris has done exactly what we expect him to (bluster, come home empty handed, blame), still with no guarantee of a GE occurring any earlier than 2022, the flipside political capital gained out of showing decisiveness in the face of unending clownery should not be underestimated.

Time will tell I suppose. Certainly the EU refusing a further extension request would put the definite squeeze on the UK and I agree that it's the right course of action to make the UK come to their senses. I just don't see the EU saying no while there is still a chance that the UK could cancel Brexit.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments