Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Berserker · 02-07-2019 11:20AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

The only way for the EU to counter this is to outperform the UK in the coming years.

And what happens if the EU doesn't outperform the UK?

Tell me how wrote: »

The UK should hold it's head in shame to have it's representatives treat a democratic institution like this.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's disgusting. It's getting increasingly hard to maintain a positive view of the British electorate these days.

Oh behave yourselves. Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. I would have sat down but turning their backs is just as good.

Zubeneschamali · 02-07-2019 11:22AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

The only way for the EU to counter this is to outperform the UK in the coming years. If the UK is in recession and the EU pushing ahead with growth, then it is very hard to claim that it is all the EU's fault.

Firstly, this is inevitable. Even the Brexiteers sometimes admit that there will be a price to pay. Rees-Mogg has said it may take 50 years to see a dividend.

Secondly, the UK doing badly is precisely what will feed the "Nasty EU is punishing us because we had the cheek to leave" narrative. "If only the EU had given us the cake we deserve, we'd be in the Sunny Uplands right now!"

Tell me how · 02-07-2019 11:30AM

Berserker wrote: »

Oh behave yourselves. Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. I would have sat down but turning their backs is just as good.

What are they protesting against?

kunst nugget · 02-07-2019 11:31AM

Don't know if this has been mentioned already but here's a very interesting take on BJ's bizarroland bus-painting hobby story.

https://parall.ax/blog/view/3301/boris-johnson-the-unlikely-seo-strategist

Yesterday, Boris Johnson appeared on talkRadio and chatted to Ross Kempsell, Political Editor, about what he likes to do when we he wants to relax and switch off. You can see the video here. And of course today, the focus of the news has been all about his bizarre new pastime: making model buses.

To most, this is probably easy to shrug off as another strange remark about what he does in his spare time – like the time he said he enjoyed painting cheese boxes. But to us here at Parallax – and anyone else with a modicum of knowledge about search rankings – there’s something amiss in the would-be Prime Minister’s choice of relaxation. Could this latest news piece be more than a short-term ‘dead cat strategy’ and more of a long-term SEO strategy?

The Conservative MP has had a dubious history with buses; images of him in front of a red bus with the words “We send the EU £350 million a week” plastered across the side are easy to find, and the relatively recent failing of his redesigned London Routemaster buses had no end of complaints popping up across the internet. Doesn’t it then seem likely then that, now, during his campaign to be Prime Minister, that Boris would want to push down any mention of these on Google?

We think so.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 11:35AM

Berserker wrote: »

And what happens if the EU doesn't outperform the UK?

Well then the UK would have shown up the entire EU is not fit for purpose and it will lead to the break up of the EU. Which given that the UK will be doing better nobody will mourn.

Berserker wrote: »

Oh behave yourselves. Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. I would have sat down but turning their backs is just as good.

But what are they protesting? A few musicians playing some music? Really. Protesting would be refusing to take their seats at all, you know like SF do in NI. You may not agree with it but it has a principle behind it.

Enzokk · 02-07-2019 11:43AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Matlis totally destroyed him. I was not expecting it at all, was ready for the usual bluster and nonsense and no calling out of facts but tbf she really went in hard on him and didn't let him away. It was pretty uncomfortable viewing actually seeing a professional come face to face with the lies and duplicity that he has allowed himself to become.

On the other hand, I felt she let the other lad off a bit gently. He kept touting the mantra that Hunt was best placed to get a renegotiation. IMO, she should have asked that since this was the claimed difference that would Hunt resign on 1st October if he failed in the one task he claimed only he could achieve.

Even to ask the question as to why he feels Hunt is best placed. Why? What previous experience does he have reopening up international agreements in a 3 week time frame?

And again, what is Hunt willing to offer the EU in exchange for what he wants?

Some presenters and journalists are learning how to interview subjects in a world where facts are pliable. I think we can see why politicians avoid James O'Brien like the plague, because they know he will not let up in an interview and make it easy for them.

Tell me how wrote: »

This is chillingly shameful.

https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/1145968706939445248

The UK should hold it's head in shame to have it's representatives treat a democratic institution like this.

Berserker wrote: »

Oh behave yourselves. Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. I would have sat down but turning their backs is just as good.

I don't mind a protest, but this is not just a protest. They are openly disrespecting the institution and I feel their protests will have much more heft to it if they also refused the salary they will get. That would show their commitment to the cause and how much they despise the excesses of the EU.

Berserker · 02-07-2019 11:49AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well then the UK would have shown up the entire EU is not fit for purpose and it will lead to the break up of the EU. Which given that the UK will be doing better nobody will mourn.

Agree with you on the above. A successful Brexit even in the medium to long term spells big trouble for the EU.

Leroy42 wrote: »

But what are they protesting? A few musicians playing some music? Really. Protesting would be refusing to take their seats at all, you know like SF do in NI. You may not agree with it but it has a principle behind it.

Ah, it's just a bit of attention seeking. The page three style reactions in the posts above are OTT though. I was surprised to see them taking their seats, if I'm honest.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 11:57AM

Right, so its not protesting just attention seeking. Using the institutions of the EU do get themselves attention?

In terms of the impact of Brexit, there is almost no chance, certainly nothing based on anything other than hope, that the UK will be better off than the EU. The world has three economic powers (US, China and the EU) with possibly India joining along. How will the UK possibly get into that level? Because if they are in the ones making the decisions, then they will be the ones having to accept them.

There is nothing, and even Brexiteers don't try to claim otherwise, that the UK can be in a stronger position after leaving the EU. It is all based on the hope that the EU will start to stall and that the lessor countries (in terms of economic power) will continue to rise. But for that to work it is predicated on these 'new' countries being willing to accept that the UK will be in charge. Just as the UK expect them to grow, so they can see the UK are weaker and they will exploit it.

There is simply no factual basis on which to expect that the UK will be better off than the EU after Brexit. Short, medium or long term.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 11:58AM

Berserker wrote: »

And what happens if the EU doesn't outperform the UK?

Oh behave yourselves. Nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. I would have sat down but turning their backs is just as good.

So when God Save The Queen is played when French MEPs visit London then it's okay for them to remain seated.

First Up · 02-07-2019 12:02PM

Professor Moriarty wrote:

Of course. But, as Zuben said, this will allow British populists (Johnson, Mogg, Farage et al) to paint the EU as the bad guys and the Little Englanders as the good guys. That's not in the EU's or Ireland's interests in the long term.

The long term will sort itself.

lawred2 · 02-07-2019 12:09PM

Tell me how wrote: »

This is chillingly shameful.

https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/1145968706939445248

The UK should hold it's head in shame to have it's representatives treat a democratic institution like this.

Pathetic carry on acting as if they are at a football match.

They are a reflection of British society and those that have voted for them. Boorish arrogant and hateful.

ambro25 · 02-07-2019 12:09PM

Berserker wrote: »

(...)

Ah, it's just a bit of attention seeking. The page three style reactions in the posts above are OTT though. I was surprised to see them taking their seats, if I'm honest. They are going to the parliament to tell people that they don't want to be there.

You might not follow continental news, much, do you?

Front (online) page everywhere across the Benelux, France & Germany, right now.

Not earning much goodwill for the Brits' next extension, there, either.

kunst nugget · 02-07-2019 12:10PM

ambro25 wrote: »

You might not follow continental news, much, do you?

Front (online) page everywhere across the Benelux, France & Germany, right now.

Not earning much goodwill for the Brits' next extension, there, either.

Which is exactly the whole point of the endeavour.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 12:13PM

Well the BRexit party are not looking for goodwill. They want a No deal by 31 Oct, it is their own electorate they are targeting with this.

But in terms of helping the UK, which at the end of the day is what they are supposed to be doing, it isn't going to help but when one is convinced that the best and only option is to leave without a deal then losing goodwill is of no consequence.

What is does do, of course, is mean that any other MEP should ignore these guys are clearly they are not there to work with anyone else and have no intention of actually working to anyone's benefit (but themselves of course).

ambro25 · 02-07-2019 12:14PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Which is exactly the whole point of the endeavour.

We're talking Brexit Party MEPs here: it's for domestic consumption (there's a GE coming, and the Express, Breitbart & co. need the material).

I doubt they'd even understand the effect on the EU27, never mind that they planned it to deliberately stoke hostile sentiment in the EU27.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 12:17PM

ambro25 wrote: »

We're talking Brexit Party MEPs here: it's for domestic consumption, there's a GE coming.

I doubt they'd even understand the optics on the EU27, never mind that they planned those deliberately.

Whatever your feeling on Farage, one thing that everyone should be able to agree on is that he, and thus the Brexit party, is very adept at manipulating the audience.

I am pretty certain that very little of these things, such as the recent twitter videos of BP MEP's arriving at the parliament, are not thought and planned and part of a wider PR scheme.

farmchoice · 02-07-2019 12:17PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Right, so its not protesting just attention seeking. Using the institutions of the EU do get themselves attention?

In terms of the impact of Brexit, there is almost no chance, certainly nothing based on anything other than hope, that the UK will be better off than the EU. The world has three economic powers (US, China and the EU) with possibly India joining along. How will the UK possibly get into that level? Because if they are in the ones making the decisions, then they will be the ones having to accept them.

There is nothing, and even Brexiteers don't try to claim otherwise, that the UK can be in a stronger position after leaving the EU. It is all based on the hope that the EU will start to stall and that the lessor countries (in terms of economic power) will continue to rise. But for that to work it is predicated on these 'new' countries being willing to accept that the UK will be in charge. Just as the UK expect them to grow, so they can see the UK are weaker and they will exploit it.

There is simply no factual basis on which to expect that the UK will be better off than the EU after Brexit. Short, medium or long term.

once free of the shackles of the EU can UK can go back to being global puppet masters, playing one side off against the other using there cunning and guile to get one over johnny foreigner at every turn, thick vulgar yanks or Chinese ex farm boys, doesn't matter, the Brits see them for what they are, have their number and will play them just like they did in the old days of empire.
they can lean on the Germans (car) and intimidate the french (wine and cheese) the Canadians and new Zealanders and Australians secretly yearn for the hand of there colonial masters to once again protect and rule them.

This is a fact, the history of that sepulchered isle teaches us so and anyone who disagrees is a lackey.... of someone... the trade unions, the EU, the editor of the Guardian.

kunst nugget · 02-07-2019 12:19PM

ambro25 wrote: »

We're talking Brexit Party MEPs here: it's for domestic consumption (there's a GE coming, and the Express, Breitbart & co. need the material).

I doubt they'd even understand the effect on the EU27, never mind that they planned it to deliberately stoke hostile sentiment in the EU27.

That seems unbelievably naive. Of course they know how it's going to play out with the EU27.

ancapailldorcha · 02-07-2019 12:22PM

ambro25 wrote: »

We're talking Brexit Party MEPs here: it's for domestic consumption (there's a GE coming, and the Express, Breitbart & co. need the material).

I doubt they'd even understand the effect on the EU27, never mind that they planned it to deliberately stoke hostile sentiment in the EU27.

It's the absolute height of hypocrisy though. Imagine the uproar if even a single MEP even failed to rise if the British anthem was played.

First Up · 02-07-2019 12:22PM

kunst nugget wrote:

That seems unbelievably naive. Of course they know how it's going to play out with the EU27.

The EU 27 is well aware that this is all Farage and his like have got. Nobody who matters gives a sh*t about this sort of nonsense.

Berserker · 02-07-2019 12:46PM

ambro25 wrote: »

You might not follow continental news, much, do you?

Front (online) page everywhere across the Benelux, France & Germany, right now.

Not earning much goodwill for the Brits' next extension, there, either.

So they got exactly what they wanted regarding attention. The Brexit party do not want an extension. They want to leave, deal or no deal.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's the absolute height of hypocrisy though. Imagine the uproar if even a single MEP even failed to rise if the British anthem was played.

Big difference between a national anthem, any national anthem and the EU anthem. Didn't even realise that they played it in parliament. A pledge of allegiance will be next.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 12:50PM

Johnson and Hunt are in NI today for the leadership hustings.

First question from Ian Dunt to Johnson and his reply - I repeat they are in NI and thus should be aware that some questions will involve NI!

Iain Dale asks his first question.

Q: I asked my taxi driver on the way here what he would like to ask. He wanted to know why the MLAs were being paid. What would you do to get the assembly up and running again?

Johnson says he would urge all sides to get the assembly back running again.

Q: What are the problems?

Johnson says people know what the problems are. Compromise is needed.

Q: What would you do?

Johnson says he would do what needs to be done.

Hasn't got a scooby do. Didn't even bother to read up the most basic details.

10000maniacs · 02-07-2019 12:52PM

20silkcut wrote: »

The curates egg comes to mind.

So only 2.5% of beef on our shelves is potentially dodgy.

Very re-assuring.

After the meat producer shenanigans that precipitated the horse meat scandal here some years ago or the Irish contaminated pig meat scandal, I do not have much confidence in meat producers wherever they are whether from Ireland, Europe, Brazil or Argentina.
Every time I sit down to eat a steak, I think to myself, is this the one that's going to do me over?

Berserker · 02-07-2019 12:55PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But in terms of helping the UK, which at the end of the day is what they are supposed to be doing, it isn't going to help but when one is convinced that the best and only option is to leave without a deal then losing goodwill is of no consequence.

Yep, delivering Brexit is the best way to the help the UK in their eyes.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Johnson and Hunt are in NI today for the leadership hustings.

First question from Ian Dunt to Johnson and his reply - I repeat they are in NI and thus should be aware that some questions will involve NI!

Hasn't got a scooby do. Didn't even bother to read up the most basic details.

Bit harsh there. Are those vague responses any different to the majority of political leaders outside of N.I.? What did Hunt say?

Tell me how · 02-07-2019 12:57PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Johnson and Hunt are in NI today for the leadership hustings.

First question from Ian Dunt to Johnson and his reply - I repeat they are in NI and thus should be aware that some questions will involve NI!

Hasn't got a scooby do. Didn't even bother to read up the most basic details.

Well, when the Northern Ireland Secretary doesn't understand the absolute ground floor level basics of the place, can't expect old Boris to.

This whole thing is incredibly frustrating the last few years. The above reminds me of him who must not be named across the water in the US and his absolute inability to hold a cogent thought or argument on any topic which impacts society more so than it does him.

It's frustrating because it shows that waffle/spin, money and friends/supporters can bring you to the highest seat in countries which are massively influential on Ireland. All of this lowers the tone as it shows others what is required to win and so more will play this game.

We will see this ourselves I expect when PC finally wins an election in Ireland at the next GE. The world is severely lacking in leaders with a reasonable/realistic societal view at the moment.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 12:58PM

Berserker wrote: »

Big difference between a national anthem, any national anthem and the EU anthem. Didn't even realise that they played it in parliament. A pledge of allegiance will be next.

Not really. There is no reason for me to stand for the British anthem except for respect.

There was no need to stand, but to turn their back is a sign of disrespect. Even to the musicians themselves.

It was an act of disrespect and can you imagine if Tusk came to the HoC and didn't stand for the Queen. Remember when Michelle Obama had the audacity to touch the queen when talking to her?

Like everything else in relation to Brexit, it appears that only UK things are important and everything else is simply a waste of time and money.

kunst nugget · 02-07-2019 12:59PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Every time I sit down to eat a steak, I think to myself, is this the one that's going to do me over?

How do you actually exist if you live in that state of hysteria the whole time?

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 01:02PM

Berserker wrote: »

Bit harsh there. Are those vague responses any different to the majority of political leaders outside of N.I.? What did Hunt say?

Ah hold on, there is vague answers and then there is clearly a person that has no idea. What are the issues? Everyone knows the issues! That is a 10 year olds answer.

I repeat, he had purposefully gone to NI, this wasn't some out of the blue doorstep interview where he was ambushed about some off topic issue. He was in NI. He was there to tell NI just how important it was to the future of the UK. And he wasn't even bothered to read the most basic outline.

InTheShadows · 02-07-2019 01:05PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's disgusting. It's getting increasingly hard to maintain a positive view of the British electorate these days.

:pac: Will you get over yourself. Disgusting

10000maniacs · 02-07-2019 01:08PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

How do you actually exist if you live in that state of hysteria the whole time?

Just making the point that I have as high/low a threshold of trust for South American beef as I do for EU beef.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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