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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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  • #2822
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    lawred2 wrote: »
    The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

    We expect the Brexiteers to say it'll be fine.

    The mad thing is all the remainers and all the people who didn't vote, who should by now know that it is not fine, it is an impending disaster, but who are sitting quietly at home while the Tories argue about who can destroy the UK in the most spectacular fashion so they can make them PM.

    These are the people I don't understand - they seem to think nothing really bad can happen because its GREAT Britain, after all, mother of parliaments, it'll sort itself out, no need to make a fuss.


  • #2823
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    We expect the Brexiteers to say it'll be fine.

    The mad thing is all the remainers and all the people who didn't vote, who should by now know that it is not fine, it is an impending disaster, but who are sitting quietly at home while the Tories argue about who can destroy the UK in the most spectacular fashion so they can make them PM.

    These are the people I don't understand - they seem to think nothing really bad can happen because its GREAT Britain, after all, mother of parliaments, it'll sort itself out, no need to make a fuss.
    IMO this describes the majority of remain voters. Only a small minority know it is going to be a total car crash. Even many remain voters think it would be wrong to revoke now after "the people have spoken". The vast bulk of the UK electorate is of the opinion that the UK will manage at least "OK" outside the EU. They simply don't understand how integrated the UK economy is within the structures of the EU. They don't get that most of their trade with non-EU countries is governed by EU FTAs and bilateral agreements. They simply think things will be "a bit bumpy" at worst. They don't understand that no major economy has ever done what they are about to do. They don't get the unprecedented nature of no deal Brexit.

    Slowly but surely one must come to the conclusion that the only way the great British public will learn its true place in the world (as a major but not super-power economy, and heavily dependent on being a member of the world's largest trading bloc, like we all are in this club) is for the UK to experience life on the outside. It might be good for EU cohesion to see a major economy falter outside the club too. Many citizens across the EU take the union for granted and don't see the great benefits it brings to all our economies.

    The one thing I can't stand is the new narrative that it will be because the EU wants to give the UK a punishment beating if the UK doesn't prosper. This is galling. The UK politicians expect the EU to hold their hand and assist them while they leave our club to become direct competition on our doorstep. They are aghast that the EU might say no to this idea.


  • #2824
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    murphaph wrote: »
    Slowly but surely one must come to the conclusion that the only way the great British public will learn its true place in the world (as a major but not super-power economy, and heavily dependent on being a member of the world's largest trading bloc, like we all are in this club) is for the UK to experience life on the outside.


    Perhaps, but I think it is more likely that when No Deal Brexit is a disaster, the No Dealers will shift the blame to the EU and Ireland, as you note that are already laying the groundwork.


    Then Remain/Rejoin will be even more traitorous than it is now, and the country will get ever more insular, ever more nationalist, ever more right wing. This path could lead to a very bad place indeed.


  • #2825
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    If you want an insight into the soul of a typical, Tory MP, watch Maitlis eviscerating a slimey and unprincipled Damien Green on Newsnight. It's a must watch.


    Got a link?


  • #2826
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Zubeneschamali wrote:
    Perhaps, but I think it is more likely that when No Deal Brexit is a disaster, the No Dealers will shift the blame to the EU and Ireland, as you note that are already laying the groundwork.


    They can "blame" whoever they like for all the difference it makes.

    The UK decided to leave for entirely domestic political reasons; they have full responsibility for the consequences.


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  • #2827
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,064 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Got a link?

    https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1145828099847786496?s=19


    It's only destroying him if he admits he is wrong, or changes his mind.

    He does neither, they are entirely immoral. They're not going on Newsnight to talk about Brexit, or their positions on it, they're auditioning for a job in Boris's government.


  • #2828
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Tell me how wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1145828099847786496?s=19


    It's only destroying him if he admits he is wrong, or changes his mind.

    He does neither, they are entirely immoral. They're not going on Newsnight to talk about Brexit, or their positions on it, they're auditioning for a job in Boris's government.

    That's only a segment. The whole piece is about seven minutes. Might come up on YouTube. Well worth digging out. She basically exposed him as a craven liar. So he's amongst friends in the Johnson camp.


  • #2829
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,064 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    That's only a segment. The whole piece is about seven minutes. Might come up on YouTube. Well worth digging out. She basically exposed him as a craven liar. So he's amongst friends in the Johnson camp.

    Follow on bits are on subsequent tweets. It's a 4 piece thread.


  • #2830
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    First Up wrote: »
    They can "blame" whoever they like for all the difference it makes.

    The UK decided to leave for entirely domestic political reasons; they have full responsibility for the consequences.

    Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.


  • #2831
    Midlife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Midlife


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.

    Don't think that will wash. The backlash to the consequences of a no deal brexit will be brutal.


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  • #2832
    20silkcut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Follow on bits are on subsequent tweets. It's a 4 piece thread.

    The tweets underneath contain some gems well worth a read.


  • #2833
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.

    That's an internal UK political squabble. Leave them at it.


  • #2834
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    First Up wrote: »
    That's an internal UK political squabble. Leave them at it.

    Of course. But, as Zuben said, this will allow British populists (Johnson, Mogg, Farage et al) to paint the EU as the bad guys and the Little Englanders as the good guys. That's not in the EU's or Ireland's interests in the long term.


  • #2835
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Midlife wrote: »
    Don't think that will wash. The backlash to the consequences of a no deal brexit will be brutal.

    Depends on who gets the blame. If it's the populists then great, lesson learnt. If it's the vengeful and nasty EU then Britain will become a basket case.


  • #2836
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Matlis totally destroyed him. I was not expecting it at all, was ready for the usual bluster and nonsense and no calling out of facts but tbf she really went in hard on him and didn't let him away. It was pretty uncomfortable viewing actually seeing a professional come face to face with the lies and duplicity that he has allowed himself to become.

    On the other hand, I felt she let the other lad off a bit gently. He kept touting the mantra that Hunt was best placed to get a renegotiation. IMO, she should have asked that since this was the claimed difference that would Hunt resign on 1st October if he failed in the one task he claimed only he could achieve.

    Even to ask the question as to why he feels Hunt is best placed. Why? What previous experience does he have reopening up international agreements in a 3 week time frame?

    And again, what is Hunt willing to offer the EU in exchange for what he wants?


  • #2837
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Matlis totally destroyed him. I was not expecting it at all, was ready for the usual bluster and nonsense and no calling out of facts but tbf she really went in hard on him and didn't let him away. It was pretty uncomfortable viewing actually seeing a professional come face to face with the lies and duplicity that he has allowed himself to become.

    On the other hand, I felt she let the other lad off a bit gently. He kept touting the mantra that Hunt was best placed to get a renegotiation. IMO, she should have asked that since this was the claimed difference that would Hunt resign on 1st October if he failed in the one task he claimed only he could achieve.

    Even to ask the question as to why he feels Hunt is best placed. Why? What previous experience does he have reopening up international agreements in a 3 week time frame?

    And again, what is Hunt willing to offer the EU in exchange for what he wants?

    She did let him off relatively gently. I suspect it's because Hunt doesn't have a hope anyway. It's not in the tweeted segments but at the end she thanked both of them and the camera flashed to Green. If looks could kill...


  • #2838
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Depends on who gets the blame. If it's the populists then great, lesson learnt. If it's the vengeful and nasty EU then Britain will become a basket case.

    The only way for the EU to counter this is to outperform the UK in the coming years. If the UK is in recession and the EU pushing ahead with growth, then it is very hard to claim that it is all the EU's fault.

    Sure that will probably work for a couple of years, but people will start to question where the new trade deals are, where the payback is going to come from.

    When people like Liam Fox are now coming out to cover their arse and claim that maybe Brexit could cause some issues then the tide is definitely turning.

    Too late I fear to save it at this point but maybe the start of the rethink over the coming years.


  • #2839
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,064 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    This is chillingly shameful.

    https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/1145968706939445248


    The UK should hold it's head in shame to have it's representatives treat a democratic institution like this.


  • #2840
    ambro25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Depends on who gets the blame. If it's the populists then great, lesson learnt. If it's the vengeful and nasty EU then Britain will become a basket case.
    It wouldn't be as binary as that: no matter the blaming, you would always have a non-trivial body of the British population well aware that the EU is not being vengeful or nasty to the UK, but just observing its own rules for the sake of organisational coherency (to say nothing of personal 'Remain' sentiments and personal domain-specific knowledge favouring 'remain' or as close to it as possible).

    So perhaps more accurately, I'd say it depends how much of the population the snake oil peddlers will manage to continue to hoodwink and whip up, once the consequences at the personal level begin to ramp up (food, meds, jobs, travel, contracts, etc). Safe to say you can exclude sizeable portions of Scots, Londoners and NI from that notional population.

    I expect the UK to become a basket case out of the consequences of Brexit, irrespective of who or what attracts the most blame, deserved or not: blaming never fixed anything.


  • #2841
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Tell me how wrote: »
    This is chillingly shameful.

    https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv/status/1145968706939445248


    The UK should hold it's head in shame to have it's representatives treat a democratic institution like this.

    That's disgusting. It's getting increasingly hard to maintain a positive view of the British electorate these days.


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  • #2842
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ambro25 wrote: »
    It wouldn't be as binary as that: no matter the blaming, you would always have a non-trivial body of the British population well aware that the EU is not being vengeful or nasty to the UK, but just observing its own rules for the sake of organisational coherency (to say nothing of personal 'Remain' sentiments and personal domain-specific knowledge favouring 'remain' or as close to it as possible).

    So perhaps more accurately, I'd say it depends how much of the population the snake oil peddlers will manage to continue to hoodwink and whip up, once the consequences at the personal level begin to ramp up (food, meds, jobs, travel, contracts, etc). Safe to say you can exclude sizeable portions of Scots, Londoners and NI from that notional population.

    You're spot on. It's a battle for the middle ground. However, such is the mindset of many Brexiteer supporters, it could turn very nasty if they don't get their way.


  • #2843
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,064 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    That's disgusting. It's getting increasingly hard to maintain a positive view of the British electorate these days.

    Everyone else in the room who saw that probably thought to themselves, 'I wish they just f*cked off', which even more depressingly, is exactly what the Brexit MEP's want.


  • #2844
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    I think the issue is that a very large portion of the UK electorate has shown itself very much open to the manipulation and hoodwinking from the MP's and the media and there is very little sign of that changing.

    Even the tweets coming from the new Brexit party MEP's. Complaining about being given iPads upon entering the parliament (it is a work tool, like getting a laptop in many jobs) or having to travel!

    When you have people like Ann Widdecombe
    Ann Widdecombe: spent more than £9,000 of taxpayers' money on newspaper cuttings
    decrying the EU expense you know that people are willing to accept anything once it fits with their bias.


  • #2845
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,861 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Tell me how wrote: »
    It's only destroying him if he admits he is wrong, or changes his mind.

    He does neither, they are entirely immoral. They're not going on Newsnight to talk about Brexit, or their positions on it, they're auditioning for a job in Boris's government.

    I disagree. Changing your mind is an admission of fallibility and imperfection. It's how we grow. People shouldn't be penalized for it at all. In the UK, if it were looked on more favorably, Brexit would have been aborted by now.

    I also can't stand this "destroy" boll*xology that we've for some reason imported wholesale from the US. Yeah, you can use research and dirty debating tricks to shut someone up but that won't really change their mind. It's just humiliation and it needs to go away.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2846
    ambro25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    You're spot on. It's a battle for the middle ground. However, such is the mindset of many Brexiteer supporters, it could turn very nasty if they don't get their way.
    In the sentiment of my late edit to my previous post: it could turn equally nasty if they do get their way.

    In either case, immigrants would be (still more-) the frontline targets.

    One of the several main reasons we Brexoded. I'm son and grandson of economical migrants on one side, of generations of families force-displaced and dispossessed by successive conflicts (1870, 1914, 1940) on the other: feeling how the tide turns and when, is genetically encoded by now.


  • #2847
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,064 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I disagree. Changing your mind is an admission of fallibility and imperfection. It's how we grow. People shouldn't be penalized for it at all. In the UK, if it were looked on more favorably, Brexit would have been aborted by now.

    I also can't stand this "destroy" boll*xology that we've for some reason imported wholesale from the US. Yeah, you can use research and dirty debating tricks to shut someone up but that won't really change their mind. It's just humiliation and it needs to go away.

    I think discussing the value of change (which is important) is moot here as I think Mr Green is motivated entirely by selfish desires to be seen by Boris as a supporter of his. No more that Priti Patel reading entire passage from notes last week, we should call out the barely concealed motivations of politicians when the picture doesn't match the words.

    I agree on the use of the 'destroy' lexicon, sometimes it's apt but for the most part it is used incorrectly.


  • #2848
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I disagree. Changing your mind is an admission of fallibility and imperfection. It's how we grow. People shouldn't be penalized for it at all. In the UK, if it were looked on more favorably, Brexit would have been aborted by now.

    I also can't stand this "destroy" boll*xology that we've for some reason imported wholesale from the US. Yeah, you can use research and dirty debating tricks to shut someone up but that won't really change their mind. It's just humiliation and it needs to go away.


    So what would you do then? Simply let them spout whatever nonsense they like, change their standing on any issue depending on whom they are talking too?

    Matlis held him to account for what he had previously said. Either he was lying then or he was lying now. She gave him the chance to explain this change of mind but instead he tried to claim that nothing had really changed.

    When people hold themselves up as principled people, taking hard decisions that effect negatively on others on the basis that the principle is what matters, that is destroyed when they can be so easily and openly shown to be completely unprincipled when it comes to looking after themselves.

    James O'Brien has been doing this for ages, and it is time that politicians are held to account for what they previously said. I am all for them coming out and saying that they have changed their minds because of A,B or C but it is a very hard position to take when at the same time they are claiming that any rerun of the ref is an affront to democracy.


  • #2849
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I disagree. Changing your mind is an admission of fallibility and imperfection. It's how we grow. People shouldn't be penalized for it at all. In the UK, if it were looked on more favorably, Brexit would have been aborted by now.

    I also can't stand this "destroy" boll*xology that we've for some reason imported wholesale from the US. Yeah, you can use research and dirty debating tricks to shut someone up but that won't really change their mind. It's just humiliation and it needs to go away.

    Hang on. Green campaigned for Remain in 2016. Nine months ago, he advocated a second referendum. Three months ago, he passionately defended May and May's deal as being the only way Britain should leave the EU and dismissed No Deal as being a disaster for Britain. Now he's fervently supporting an arch Brexiteer who is happy to leave with no deal in October.

    Maitlis didn't use "dirty tricks". She just presented him with facts about his political 'principles' and 'positions'. The only person who has humiliated Dominic Green is Dominic Green.


  • #2850
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Wilson still detached from reality
    https://twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan/status/1145946992121716737
    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1145947299396370433


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  • #2851
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,861 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I think discussing the value of change (which is important) is moot here as I think Mr Green is motivated entirely by selfish desires to be seen by Boris as a supporter of his. No more that Priti Patel reading entire passage from notes last week, we should call out the barely concealed motivations of politicians when the picture doesn't match the words.

    I agree on the use of the 'destroy' lexicon, sometimes it's apt but for the most part it is used incorrectly.

    Ok. I'd forgotten that Green was a remainer and was solely commenting on the "destroy" rhetoric.
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So what would you do then? Simply let them spout whatever nonsense they like, change their standing on any issue depending on whom they are talking too?

    Matlis held him to account for what he had previously said. Either he was lying then or he was lying now. She gave him the chance to explain this change of mind but instead he tried to claim that nothing had really changed.

    When people hold themselves up as principled people, taking hard decisions that effect negatively on others on the basis that the principle is what matters, that is destroyed when they can be so easily and openly shown to be completely unprincipled when it comes to looking after themselves.

    James O'Brien has been doing this for ages, and it is time that politicians are held to account for what they previously said. I am all for them coming out and saying that they have changed their minds because of A,B or C but it is a very hard position to take when at the same time they are claiming that any rerun of the ref is an affront to democracy.

    Oh no, they should absolutely be challenged. No question and this is a particularly hypocritical and venal volte face. As I said, I'd forgotten that Green was once in favour of a People's Vote. I didn't realize there was this much hypocrisy on display.
    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Hang on. Green campaigned for Remain in 2016. Nine months ago, he advocated a second referendum. Three months ago, he passionately defended May and May's deal as being the only way Britain should leave the EU and dismissed No Deal as being a disaster for Britain. Now he's fervently supporting an arch Brexiteer who is happy to leave with no deal in October.

    Maitlis didn't use "dirty tricks". She just presented him with facts about his political 'principles' and 'positions'. The only person who has humiliated Dominic Green is Dominic Green.

    I wasn't talking about Maitlis. I was speaking in general. I should have been clearer. Hopefully, my explanation above clarifies things.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



This discussion has been closed.
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