Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

lawred2 · 01-07-2019 04:29PM

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

It hasn't? I would have thought it was long past that stage.

And now you have a leadership race between two lads trying to out 'no deal' each other..

Campaigning on how hard a Brexit they can achieve...

The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

Professor Moriarty · 01-07-2019 04:30PM

marno21 wrote: »

I would like to see how much of that 33% is in favour of economic suicide or if they actually mean "no deal" as "no to May's deal".

I've no doubt that many of them are zealots who would happily see a deep recessions so that they could "take back control". Many more are simply uninformed and just think that Johnson and Farage are great.

lawred2 · 01-07-2019 04:31PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I've no doubt that many of them are zealots who would happily see a deep recessions so that they could "take back control". Many more are simply uninformed and just think that Johnson and Farage are great.

There is no excuse for being uninformed three years after the referendum. At this stage you are willingly choosing to be so.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-07-2019 04:32PM

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

Professor Moriarty · 01-07-2019 04:34PM

lawred2 wrote: »

There is no excuse for being uninformed three years after the referendum. At this stage you are willingly choosing to be so.

If you wilfully refuse to inform yourself then you become a useful idiot.

robinph · 01-07-2019 04:35PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-07-2019 04:37PM

robinph wrote: »

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

Right. Thank you.
That is acting the maggot if they do that.

volchitsa · 01-07-2019 04:37PM

lawred2 wrote: »

that's still an absurdly high amount of people... 20m people... a lot of whom would in many other walks of life be considered rational sensible individuals. But Brexit just like pretty much like any rampant populist movement has become a cult.

But rampant populism is only something that happens to Germans.

The Germans had some sort of excuse, with an inflation rate at hundreds of percent and so on. The British seem to have dreamt up their grievances mainly in their own heads. Or media.

VinLieger · 01-07-2019 04:40PM

robinph wrote: »

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

I actually think the idea is to prorogue close enough to October 31st so as they can simply get away with not convening a new session in time by artificially drawing out the negotiations of forming a new government to stop Parliament from allowing a no deal to happen.

robinph · 01-07-2019 04:40PM

lawred2 wrote: »

It hasn't? I would have thought it was long past that stage.

And now you have a leadership race between two lads trying to out 'no deal' each other..

Campaigning on how hard a Brexit they can achieve...

The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

Campaigning for a hard brexit, or a brexit in order to save the tory party is just versions of fine. There is no talk of needing to figure out a resolution and figure out what the UK want's, just that the EU will cave into something or other and no-deal is better than something else.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-07-2019 04:43PM

Wow. That almost sounds civil warlike

Sam Russell · 01-07-2019 04:44PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

Proroguing Parliament means closing the doors, ending the current session (which has been going on for two years - normally each session lasts one year), and not starting the next session until after Oct 31st when Brexit has already happened. With Parliament closed, no laws can be enacted, so the HoC remains silent. Now since No Deal Brexit is the default, it happens while the HoC is in recess, and nothing can be done about it to stop it.

However, the HoC could decide not to be shut down, and to pass legislation to change the default to be Revoke, then there is a constitutional crisis.

It is likely to be challenged in the courts if this is tried. Also legislation needs to be enacted to get No Deal to work and that will add to chaos if it does not happen.

VinLieger · 01-07-2019 04:45PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Wow. That almost sounds civil warlike

Yup its a pretty disgusting tactic they are considering, ironically to give parliament its so called sovereignty back its not allowed have a say in anything.

The civil unrest if they tried such a maneuver from both sides could be catastrophic.

Strazdas · 01-07-2019 04:47PM

volchitsa wrote: »

The Germans had some sort of excuse, with an inflation rate at hundreds of percent and so on. The British seem to have dreamt up their grievances mainly in their own heads. Or media.

The bizarre thing about Brexit is it happened when the British economy was doing well and relations with the EU were fine. There was nothing even of note happening in 2016. It shows you how their media was well and truly stirring the pot.

trellheim · 01-07-2019 04:49PM

Proroguing - as I believe it meant - ends the session of Parliament - say till November, or whenever until it is recalled

While Parliament is out of session it cannot pass acts or motions or what-have-you.

While out of session the Government can do what it wishes within the law as it is the Executive, after all. All you need do for a no-deal is run the clock down as it is the default.

the idea here is that Parliament could not vote to stop a no-deal , as it would be out of session.

Note that the Queen prorogues (on the advice of the privy council) so an interesting time for the monarchy ( as it would be one constitutional crisis after another , without a written constitution ! )

VinLieger · 01-07-2019 04:50PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is likely to be challenged in the courts if this is tried. Also legislation needs to be enacted to get No Deal to work and that will add to chaos if it does not happen.

This is a key point that they are all apparently ignoring as well, just after the first deadline i believe May paused all no deal planning, all staff that were borrowed from other departments were sent back, and all the SI's required to be passed through parliament to take over from the equivalent EU legislation and regulations were basically forgotten about.

None of this has started up again from what I can tell and in the last few weeks theres been reports that the departments involved with Brexit planning have been loosing even more key staff hand over fist.

There is absolutely no chance they will be ready for a no deal brexit in any form, especially if it is forced through via prorogue and all the civil unrest and disruptions that would be involved.

trellheim · 01-07-2019 04:53PM

As of today 122 days to go.

01-07-2019 05:01PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

This video explains it quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpvMud16gC8

Igotadose · 01-07-2019 05:01PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The bizarre thing about Brexit is it happened when the British economy was doing well and relations with the EU were fine. There was nothing even of note happening in 2016. It shows you how their media was well and truly stirring the pot.

Media and shadowy actors (Arron Banks?)

Stop moaning ffs · 01-07-2019 05:08PM

trellheim wrote: »

Proroguing - as I believe it meant - ends the session of Parliament - say till November, or whenever until it is recalled

While Parliament is out of session it cannot pass acts or motions or what-have-you.

While out of session the Government can do what it wishes within the law as it is the Executive, after all. All you need do for a no-deal is run the clock down as it is the default.

the idea here is that Parliament could not vote to stop a no-deal , as it would be out of session.

Note that the Queen prorogues (on the advice of the privy council) so an interesting time for the monarchy ( as it would be one constitutional crisis after another , without a written constitution ! )

Just when you think brexit can’t get more bizarre, it finds a new level almost weekly.

Thanks for the info folks. Follow this thread and brexit avidly but the intricacies of the weirdness of Parliamentary procedure and British law is above my pay grade.

Strazdas · 01-07-2019 05:16PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Media and shadowy actors (Arron Banks?)

It does show the media played a big part. Brexit would be more understandable against the backdrop of a deep recession and hostile stand off with the EU. The fact that it happened when things were going well and relations with the EU were good suggests a huge amount of manipulation by the press.

Joe_ Public · 01-07-2019 05:17PM

There is, of course, a precedent for prorogation - it happened waaay back with Charles 1 in the 17th century. Lad ended up getting his head chopped off!

Personally, i very much doubt Hunt would be in any way serious about going this route, but i would be hedging my bets when it comes to the other fella. Not that i think Johnson would be stupid enough to think it would sort the brexit issue, but just think how many brownie points it would gain him with the hard right and, even, the admiration of the BP. If an election is to be a likely outcome of such maneuvering, then i can easily see the appeal for him.

trellheim · 01-07-2019 05:24PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just when you think brexit can’t get more bizarre, it finds a new level almost weekly.

Thanks for the info folks. Follow this thread and brexit avidly but the intricacies of the weirdness of Parliamentary procedure and British law is above my pay grade.

A similar process might occur here . If the Oireachtas is out of session the Government .... governs....

Prorogation is normal enough, happens every year.

Sam Russell · 01-07-2019 06:02PM

trellheim wrote: »

A similar process might occur here . If the Oireachtas is out of session the Government .... governs....

Prorogation is normal enough, happens every year.

Except it did not happen last year because May had a two year parliament. Also, normally it is not significant, but if it is done to force a No Deal against the obvious will of the HoC then that is a constitutional crisis. Last time someone lost their head. Expect something like that again.

Laois_Man · 01-07-2019 06:47PM

Also, when Proroguing parliment does happen at times other than a normal General Election, I believe it would typically happen at this time of the year - Not October!

Headshot · 01-07-2019 08:01PM

It would be a good drinking game the amount of times Hunt mentions starting up a business or being an entrepreneur

briany · 01-07-2019 08:56PM

The only answer for the Conservatives at this stage has to be another GE. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed answer, but the whole fiasco is predicated on the DUP being the balance holders, and the Conservatives and Labour being completely unwilling to find common ground. If the Cons could get a clear majority back, I think they could whip themselves into accepting the deal as it was offered back in 2017. If it 'backfired' and Labour got in, the Conservatives could somewhat escape the fallout from whatever happened next, be that a disastrous form of Brexit, second ref, or even revoke, and perhaps remain somewhat electable in the future. Even if the Cons had do a coalition with the Brexit party, I think they could sell a Brexit minus NI to their bases, given that their bases would be happy to lose NI altogether if it meant a Brexit for England, and the people of NI would be happy enough, since they voted to stay in, and NI business leaders look on it as a preferable situation to not being in the EU at all.

ambro25 · 01-07-2019 09:12PM

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

With respect: whatever you need to do. Keeping a roof on your head and food on the table is not exclusively a British thing, either.

A benign outcome for the Brexit crisis is, ultimately, the British public’s responsibility to deliver. Clearly, neither your politicians, nor your civil service, nor your media, nor your industries will solve it for you.

So either sort it for yourselves RTFN, while there’s still time, or live with whatever form the vested interests pushing it at the ass will give it for you all.

Because you won’t have the luxury of time, when enough of you cop on that this level of immediate danger is actually behind you already...and don’t expect too much tears from many of us who have already made our peace with seeing the back of you.

Call this tough love.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 12:24AM

If you want an insight into the soul of a typical, Tory MP, watch Maitlis eviscerating a slimey and unprincipled Damien Green on Newsnight. It's a must watch.

Strazdas · 02-07-2019 12:41AM

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

The British government should cut out the nonsense about "democracy" and "democratic decision by the electorate". Now that it is evident that the referendum result will harm the UK, they have an absolute duty to protect the general public at all costs from a stupid electoral vote.

If they cannot tell the 52% they messed up, they have no business running a government or leading the country.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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