Do you exercise properly?

Brian? · 01-07-2019 08:35AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't have a spotter and I way prefer dumbbells to the Smith machine anyway. I know you can lift more if it's a bar but I don't really care about how much I can lift or how I look.

Didn't realise asymmetry wasn't a big issue. I'll keep at what I'm doing and see if I continue failing without warning.

Are squats high-risk when it comes to injury? I'm terrified of hurting my back. Is it worth learning real squats as opposed to just using the squat press machine thing that isolates it to the legs?

Squats are high risk if you do them incorrectly. Done correctly they're fine. If you have poor hip or ankle mobility you're going to load your spine in the wrong way.

If you're worried about your back, which is a valid worry, work on your mobility. Can you do.a full range air squat with no issues? Do you have tight glutes or hamstrings? How do you prepare to squat?

Brian? · 01-07-2019 08:36AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They aren't high risk in and of themselves. Loading a bar with too much weight too soon puts you at risk. They're a great exercise if you invest the time etc in learning them.

You don't have to squat and you can use the leg press to work legs.

But I would always recommend trying to learn to squat if there are no issues with doing them just because they are a good exercise.

But there isn't necessarily a need to do them...Just depends what you want from working out

To me, the ability to squat properly is a good indicator of hip mobility. If you are able to do them is far more important than actually doing them for strength.

Alf Veedersane · 01-07-2019 09:45AM

Brian? wrote: »

To me, the ability to squat properly is a good indicator of hip mobility. If you are able to do them is far more important than actually doing them for strength.

True. Don't disagree. But not everyone is able to and some probably need to do a bit of work to allow themselves to get into positions that they would need to.

By way of example, I spent a few months earlier in the year unable to do full ROM because of my hip. So was doing high box squats and worked away on other stuff to allow myself to be able to get closer to full ROM.

kal7 · 01-07-2019 10:53AM

I always tell beginners not to use momentum and speed to get a weight up, and to control the descent of the weight, not to use gravity.

We need to get "time under tension."

So explosive up and passive down is not helpful in doing resistance training.

Obviously to hit a max lift or in sport/competition these are ok, and training to perfect these is fine if that is the goal.

But if you are looking to gain muscle you are looking to fatigue the system.

It is hard to do though when you are struggling to complete set.

Alf Veedersane · 01-07-2019 02:21PM

kal7 wrote: »

I always tell beginners not to use momentum and speed to get a weight up, and to control the descent of the weight, not to use gravity.

We need to get "time under tension."

So explosive up and passive down is not helpful in doing resistance training.

Obviously to hit a max lift or in sport/competition these are ok, and training to perfect these is fine if that is the goal.

But if you are looking to gain muscle you are looking to fatigue the system.

It is hard to do though when you are struggling to complete set.

It's all about context: training should be related to your goal.

Not that that disagrees with what you've said but the context appeared halfway down.

I'd just add that you want to fatigue the system to a point. If your fatigue from a training session is having a negative impact on subsequent sessions, as regards volume, you probably need to dial back a touch.

Transform · 01-07-2019 03:41PM

kal7 wrote: »

I always tell beginners not to use momentum and speed to get a weight up, and to control the descent of the weight, not to use gravity.

We need to get "time under tension."

So explosive up and passive down is not helpful in doing resistance training.

Obviously to hit a max lift or in sport/competition these are ok, and training to perfect these is fine if that is the goal.

But if you are looking to gain muscle you are looking to fatigue the system.

It is hard to do though when you are struggling to complete set.

funny because when i went to see Brad Schoenfeld last month at a seminar he said time under tension wasnt a major factor at all when looking to develop muscle - volume, loading and frequency play bigger roles

Transform · 01-07-2019 03:49PM

kal7 wrote: »

I always tell beginners not to use momentum and speed to get a weight up, and to control the descent of the weight, not to use gravity.

We need to get "time under tension."

So explosive up and passive down is not helpful in doing resistance training.

Obviously to hit a max lift or in sport/competition these are ok, and training to perfect these is fine if that is the goal.

But if you are looking to gain muscle you are looking to fatigue the system.

It is hard to do though when you are struggling to complete set.

the goal is not to "fatigue the system"

the goal is progress and this can only be attained when you factor in MRV (maximal recoverable volume), MAV (maximal adaptive volume) and MEV (minimal effective volume) ala Mike Isratel.

In simple terms (i hate people getting complex on concepts they cant present simply) is - how much loading, volume and intensity you put into each session should depend on how recovered you are from both training and lifestyle factors i.e. dont expect recovery to be great if you get poor sleep, eat poorly and dont do lighter ordinary days to prepare you for extraordinary days.

Train hard, at times over reach, recover hard, repeat - if lifestyle is poor then dont expect much progress.

01-07-2019 03:51PM

I did three sets of eight on a dumbbell squat next to a mirror with lightish weights and it felt good. Was extremely careful to maintain a straight back.

From my understanding from YouTube videos yesterday, a dumbbell squat is when you start from standing and drop and rise. I couldn't have managed a straight back lifting them of the floor.

I want to clear up one thing.. My fear of a back injury has nothing to do with my own back. It's always been fine.

I'm going to get a PT best week to make sure I'm doing it right before moving onto difficult weights. There's one Western English-speaking PT who is sometimes in the gym. I'll get him for a month for just half an hour each time.

I felt all the stress in my legs and heels so I think that's a good start.

Loving working out again after over a decade. On a four day routine but with only one day on legs. Think I want to incorporate this on legs day and on chest day. They're day one and day three.

kal7 · 01-07-2019 04:01PM

Transform,

Looking back at my post "fatigue the system" may not be correct wording

I used fatigue the system, instead of the muscle as this would include stress on tendons and bony structures also, and the different areas in a compound movement, not strictly isolated lift.

Agree recovery very important, load and volume etc need to factored in,
I just see so many in gym, racing through a set of exercises they don't understand why they are doing them.

01-07-2019 04:15PM

I'm careful to make sure every rep is calculated and properly isolated. Simple standing dumbbells making sure my weak side isn't carrying the curl with my shoulder.

There's a huge (fat) American guy in the gym who gets through sets at least five times faster than I do. I don't know enough to know if I'm right but when I look at him, I just see injury. It's so explosive and his whole body is into every exercise. The bar you pull down from above? It's like his entire body is being driven by his lower back I think.

Definitely not my place to approach but I just see something going horribly wrong. Should anyone do two reps in the space of a two seconds? Am I right that that exercise should maintain a straight vertical back and you only pull down with appropriate muscles?

My main worry is my girlfriend who is at the gym for the first time ever. She refuses PTs so I have to make sure things are ok. She's good so far only using what I think should be moved.

Alf Veedersane · 01-07-2019 04:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I did three sets of eight on a dumbbell squat next to a mirror with lightish weights and it felt good. Was extremely careful to maintain a straight back.

From my understanding from YouTube videos yesterday, a dumbbell squat is when you start from standing and drop and rise. I couldn't have managed a straight back lifting them of the floor.

You won't be starting any squat set with lifting a weight from the floor. You're possibly thinking of a deadlift.

In a general sense, squatting would be fine. You're supposed to keep your back neutral anyway and it's only when people load it up with a weight that's too heavy that injuries become a risk. Start with a bar and take it from there. High bar and front squat would be done with a more upright torso so you could use those and build some confidence under the bar.

01-07-2019 04:23PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You won't be starting any squat set with lifting a weight from the floor. You're possibly thinking of a deadlift.

In a general sense, squatting would be fine. You're supposed to keep your back neutral anyway and it's only when people load it up with a weight that's too heavy that injuries become a risk. Start with a bar and take it from there. High bar and front squat would be done with a more upright torso so you could use those and build some confidence under the bar.

I'll move onto the bar in a while. I liked having the weights to my sides today. I want to get used to a straight back.

And the deadlift / squat areas are often busy. I can do dumbbell anywhere in the gym. I'm pretty weak so it'll be a very long time before I run into an issue of dumbbells not being heavy enough.

Alf Veedersane · 01-07-2019 04:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll move onto the bar in a while. I liked having the weights to my sides today. I want to get used to a straight back.

And the deadlift / squat areas are often busy. I can do dumbbell anywhere in the gym. I'm pretty weak so it'll be a very long time before I run into an issue of dumbbells not being heavy enough.

Fair enough. It just comes across that there's an overriding fear of injuring yourself that I was trying to dispel.

silverharp · 01-07-2019 04:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll move onto the bar in a while. I liked having the weights to my sides today. I want to get used to a straight back.

And the deadlift / squat areas are often busy. I can do dumbbell anywhere in the gym. I'm pretty weak so it'll be a very long time before I run into an issue of dumbbells not being heavy enough.

2 other options are a kettlebell , or use a cable station

the baby bull elephant · 01-07-2019 08:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm careful to make sure every rep is calculated and properly isolated. Simple standing dumbbells making sure my weak side isn't carrying the curl with my shoulder.

There's a huge (fat) American guy in the gym who gets through sets at least five times faster than I do. I don't know enough to know if I'm right but when I look at him, I just see injury. It's so explosive and his whole body is into every exercise. The bar you pull down from above? It's like his entire body is being driven by his lower back I think.

Definitely not my place to approach but I just see something going horribly wrong. Should anyone do two reps in the space of a two seconds? Am I right that that exercise should maintain a straight vertical back and you only pull down with appropriate muscles?

My main worry is my girlfriend who is at the gym for the first time ever. She refuses PTs so I have to make sure things are ok. She's good so far only using what I think should be moved.

It really depends on training goals and sometimes the exercise. General of you want to be an explosive athlete, lifting explosively can be a good idea. It sounds like the machine you're describing is the lat pulldown you can definitely use too much momentum but I'd say the injury risk is fairly low. It is one I'd say should be fairly strict with some leaning being the furthest I'd go. Rowing type movements do seem to be generally the ones where 'cheating' is most accepted. Certainly Kroc and powers rows are two of my favourite variations and both allow/encourage explosiveness.

I think you mentioned you were looking at YouTube videos. One channel I would really recommend is Brian Alsruhe's. He has in depth tutorial videos for a lot of exercises and in particular any of his videos on (just go with the most recent one) is a must watch for anyone who wants to move weight.

Transform · 01-07-2019 10:21PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm careful to make sure every rep is calculated and properly isolated. Simple standing dumbbells making sure my weak side isn't carrying the curl with my shoulder.

There's a huge (fat) American guy in the gym who gets through sets at least five times faster than I do. I don't know enough to know if I'm right but when I look at him, I just see injury. It's so explosive and his whole body is into every exercise. The bar you pull down from above? It's like his entire body is being driven by his lower back I think.

Definitely not my place to approach but I just see something going horribly wrong. Should anyone do two reps in the space of a two seconds? Am I right that that exercise should maintain a straight vertical back and you only pull down with appropriate muscles?

My main worry is my girlfriend who is at the gym for the first time ever. She refuses PTs so I have to make sure things are ok. She's good so far only using what I think should be moved.

The fat part was unnecessary

My squat tutorial is here and shows all the variations - https://youtu.be/LO9XL5H5agw

letsgo2018 · 01-07-2019 10:32PM

....... wrote: »

Im am hoping this thread can be informative!

I see a LOT of people in the gym who just arent exercising properly. They are either doing what I call "arm movements" - ie, no specific exercise but just sort of waving their arms/legs about OR they are simply not exercising at a level that will be of much benefit (women chest pressing the 2kg dumbells). Or people are just randomly doing bits and pieces with whatever happens to be free but dont seem to have goals.

And then in terms of cardio I see people who are walking treadmills but at a very relaxed pace, and taking a similar relaxed pace on bikes, rowers etc...

I got talking to a guy in work about it recently, he had recently lost a lot of weight and he told he he had discovered he simply wasnt exercising properly. He used to go to the gym and never strain himself. He was never sore afterwards, never had DOMS, never got his heart rate up while in the gym. He said that the feeling of having exercised hard was completely foreign to him.

Lots of people are in the same boat.

So what advice would you give to people to get them exercising properly?

Your assuming everything you've written here is absolute gospel when in reality it is not. In my opinion most high intensity exercise should come from weight training however there is absolutely nothing wrong with steady state low intensity cardio in fact it's much better than hiit and here's why . With hiit there is a very limited amount of time a person can keep doing it for. 15 to 20 minutes at most . The fitter you get won't allow one to increase those sessions because the more intense those sessions will become. With low intensity cardio like walking there is no limit to how much one can do in the day but.the calories of a 90 minute walk will far exceed a 20 minute sprint session. To those that will argue back about Epoc . It's over blown bull****

ShlugEireann · 02-07-2019 08:00AM

I have a fear of going to the gym as I think I'd look stupid as I don't really know how to bench correctly etc.

02-07-2019 08:32AM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

I have a fear of going to the gym as I think I'd look stupid as I don't really know how to bench correctly etc.

No one has ever gone to the gym for the first time knowing what to do..

Brian? · 02-07-2019 08:58AM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

I have a fear of going to the gym as I think I'd look stupid as I don't really know how to bench correctly etc.

That’s understandable, but everyone has to start somewhere. Book an introduction and an instructor will start you off.

Mellor · 02-07-2019 09:13AM

Time under tension is completely overrated.
Load, volume, and force are much more important imo

Mellor · 02-07-2019 09:14AM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

I have a fear of going to the gym as I think I'd look stupid as I don't really know how to bench correctly etc.

That's ok. Most people who've going to the gym for years dont know how to bench properly. The fact you are aware of the issue puts you ahead of a lot of people tbh.

kal7 · 02-07-2019 09:56AM

Agree load, volume and force may be more important factors, but if you minimise the time lifting all of these are reduced.

As with most things in life they are multifaceted.

Mellor · 02-07-2019 11:32AM

kal7 wrote: »

Agree load, volume and force may be more important factors, but if you minimise the time lifting all of these are reduced.

Well, time under tension dies affect any of them tbh. I wouldn't have disregarded it if I'd did.

Increasing time does affect the load on the bar.
Volume is a product sets, reps and load only.
Decreasing time under tension means an increased force output, not reduced.

fatbhoy · 02-07-2019 12:23PM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

I have a fear of going to the gym as I think I'd look stupid as I don't really know how to bench correctly etc.

Video yourself with your phone doing the exercise (usually no-one gives a sh1t if you're doing a little filming of yourself). Then compare what you're doing with a couple of YouTube videos of the exercise. Refine/repeat.

kal7 · 02-07-2019 12:32PM

Mellor, obviously you are correct that less time would be more force, not reduced.

I was at the International sports and exercise medicine conference in Dublin recently,
and the US based, Mayo clinic co-director Edward Laskowski
was speaking about health in the general population (not power lifters, bodybuilder etc)

His advice for doctors, physiotherapist, osteopaths etc, with regard to resistance training, was to keep it very simple.

lift 3 x per week
Do one set to fatigue (light or heavy weight)
Suggested Rep range 8-12
Ask for advice from qualified trainers

he said the research does advise that although variation is better, but that for beginners simple consistent message is what is needed to get them into exercise. Must say that many in the room had different views, but he said any training generally sees improvements. That the range of improvement from all the types of lifting was not that significantly different.

This tallies with odd findings in shoulder rehab that specific directional exercises are no real better than just doing a bench press.
I and other colleagues find this confusing, are we all wasting our time, giving technically difficult exercise for no extra benefit.
Is all the different opinions on how to lift, just adding variety?

silverharp · 02-07-2019 12:44PM

kal7 wrote: »

This tallies with odd findings in shoulder rehab that specific directional exercises are no real better than just doing a bench press.
I and other colleagues find this confusing, are we all wasting our time, giving technically difficult exercise for no extra benefit.
Is all the different opinions on how to lift, just adding variety?

In this situation is the bench press the technically difficult exercise? versus the various plated press machines?

Mellor · 02-07-2019 12:56PM

For the general population, keeping it simple is the majority of the battle.

kal7 · 02-07-2019 02:07PM

Silverharp, for shoulder work the bench press would be, in general, the most powerful position as we use it often in daily life.

so we assume the easiest to do and get right. Movement away from body to the side (Abduction) would be the difficult/weaker manouevre

although some patients will prove me wrong by doing it in very strange ways.

I think any lift will stimulate the deeper stabiliser muscles of a joint, thereby making them get better, even though you don't use them in the directions most specific to that muscle.

Do you exercise properly?

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