Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Cabaal · 23-06-2019 07:32AM

US pro-life groups being active in Ireland,

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/us-priest-exorcism-irish-abortion-clinic

Last week, Fr. Stephen Imbarrato, a pro-life activist known at the “Protest Priest,” led a prayer vigil outside Dr. Jim McShane's abortion clinic in Glasthule, Dún Laoghaire, near Dublin, before performing an exorcism on the facility.

Imbarrato, who is a leader of the Red Rose Rescue movement, an anti-abortion group,....

He said: “We’ve shut down clinics for as long as four hours. That’s the future of the pro-life movement that deserves support.”

So he wants to prevent women from using legal, democratically voted for medical procedures which are paid for by the tax payer. This is why we need exclusion zones for these zealots.

robarmstrong · 23-06-2019 09:40AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Therefore, I contend the past was better than the future.

So shunting vulnerable women over to the UK to have their abortions performed safely is better than what we have now, is it?

Bredabe · 23-06-2019 12:03PM

Cabaal wrote: »

US pro-life groups being active in Ireland,

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/us-priest-exorcism-irish-abortion-clinic

So he wants to prevent women from using legal, democratically voted for medical procedures which are paid for by the tax payer. This is why we need exclusion zones for these zealots.

That type(I dont know if they are the same group) seem to have singled out this practice almost from day one, even on Saturday, when they forcing residents and shoppers to walk on the busy road.

Its almost like they want this particular practice to close, which is interesting given the social/financial dynamic in that area.

23-06-2019 12:29PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

So shunting vulnerable women over to the UK to have their abortions performed safely is better than what we have now, is it?

Think the poster means bringing back the mother and baby homes, so we'd have somewhere to lock them up.

Cabaal · 23-06-2019 02:01PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Think the poster means bringing back the mother and baby homes, so we'd have somewhere to lock them up.

Don't forget the fact it was a great money maker for the catholic church

Igotadose · 23-06-2019 02:10PM

Cabaal wrote: »

US pro-life groups being active in Ireland,

So he wants to prevent women from using legal, democratically voted for medical procedures which are paid for by the tax payer. This is why we need exclusion zones for these zealots.

His then-girlfriend used similar procedures to abort twins, apparently. He became a priest afterwards. I wonder if his followers know that. I'm sure the ones that might are down with 'oh he's just trying to redeem himself' yadda yadda.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 03:30PM

Cabaal wrote: »

US pro-life groups being active in Ireland,

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/us-priest-exorcism-irish-abortion-clinic

So he wants to prevent women from using legal, democratically voted for medical procedures which are paid for by the tax payer. This is why we need exclusion zones for these zealots.

exclusion zones are not going to stop these non-zealots from carrying out their protests, as the hoped for outcome is worth any possible cost to them.

Igotadose · 23-06-2019 03:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

exclusion zones are not going to stop these non-zealots from carrying out their protests, as the hoped for outcome is worth any possible cost to them.

As the anti-choice types like to assert without any basis in fact, two can play at that game. Exclusion zones and deportations as enemies of the state in the case of 'visitors' protesting outside clinics would work just fine. Further, if the aborting priest in the earlier post in fact does apply for citizenship, it can be rejected as he's not a person of good character, campaigning against the wishes of the majority of the population.

So, no, you're completely wrong. Exclusion zones will work fine. Let's bring them on.

Frankly, I actually don't think they're needed yet, the Irish really don't care about abortion anymore, they have to import activists and that, too, will fizzle.

smacl · 23-06-2019 03:49PM

Igotadose wrote: »

As the anti-choice types like to assert without any basis in fact, two can play at that game.

Mod: As previously stated in this thread, please avoid terms such as anti-choice and pro-abortion. Thank you.

gctest50 · 23-06-2019 03:53PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Don't forget the fact it was a great money maker for the catholic church

And the pro-life ones want to get some of that action

The VHI, laya etc will pay for ~ 6 months care if a woman shows signs she self-harm, suicide and so on

Kiely: “Perinatal hospice looks after you in your pregnancy….”

from here :

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/03/where-is-your-decency/

Couple of thousand Euros per week ?

easy to see their game
.

Mod: changed "anti-choice" to "pro-life" as per moderator instruction four minutes earlier.

smacl · 23-06-2019 03:56PM

end of the road wrote: »

exclusion zones are not going to stop these non-zealots from carrying out their protests, as the hoped for outcome is worth any possible cost to them.

Hmmm, travelling from another country to exorcise a public building with either permission or being requested to does rather seem like "the act of a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals."

If you think they would also ignore exclusion zones on the basis that the outcome is worth any possible cost to them, that would further support this and suggest that they should be removed and charged with public disorder and the yank priest sent packing.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 04:09PM

Igotadose wrote: »

As the anti-choice types like to assert without any basis in fact, two can play at that game. Exclusion zones and deportations as enemies of the state in the case of 'visitors' protesting outside clinics would work just fine. Further, if the aborting priest in the earlier post in fact does apply for citizenship, it can be rejected as he's not a person of good character, campaigning against the wishes of the majority of the population.

So, no, you're completely wrong. Exclusion zones will work fine. Let's bring them on.

Frankly, I actually don't think they're needed yet, the Irish really don't care about abortion anymore, they have to import activists and that, too, will fizzle.

deportations as enemies of the state for protesting outside an abortion clinic are not going to happen. this is just fantasy stuff.
as for the priest mentioned in the article, refusing him citizenship on the basis of him supposebly not being a person of good character, as he is apparently campaigning against the wishes of the majority of the population is a non-runner as the wishes of the majority of the population were to repeal the 8th and for politicians to be able to legislate for abortion. the priest is simply campaigning against abortion, and we were not specifically asked whether we agreed or not with abortion on the referendum paper.
also, what you suggest can just as easily be used against someone you would agree with.

Igotadose · 23-06-2019 04:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

deportations as enemies of the state for protesting outside an abortion clinic are not going to happen. this is just fantasy stuff.
as for the priest mentioned in the article, refusing him citizenship on the basis of him supposebly not being a person of good character, as he is apparently campaigning against the wishes of the majority of the population is a non-runner as the wishes of the majority of the population were to repeal the 8th and for politicians to be able to legislate for abortion. the priest is simply campaigning against abortion, and we were not specifically asked whether we agreed or not with abortion on the referendum paper.
also, what you suggest can just as easily be used against someone you would agree with.

Again, pro-life approach: I disagree with your guesswork and assert exclusion zones for zealots will absolutely work. Bring them on, and we'll see. Further, knowing their ARE exclusion zones will prevent the locals from getting involved. You have zero data to back up your assertion, this is the game pro-life plays, facts, data, truth all secondary to opinion.

If my suggestion that this man is an enemy of the state means someone I might support, is dubbed the same, well, too bad for me I suppose, but I'm willing to risk that to keep professional paid anti-abortion campaigners from foreign countries out of Ireland and off of our web pages.

amcalester · 23-06-2019 04:18PM

end of the road wrote: »

deportations as enemies of the state for protesting outside an abortion clinic are not going to happen. this is just fantasy stuff.

It’s not an abortion clinic though, it’s a GP practice.

The vast majority of people attending will be there for non abortion services.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 04:37PM

smacl wrote: »

Hmmm, travelling from another country to exorcise a public building with either permission or being requested to does rather seem like "the act of a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals."

If you think they would also ignore exclusion zones on the basis that the outcome is worth any possible cost to them, that would further support this and suggest that they should be removed and charged with public disorder and the yank priest sent packing.

i don't think there would be any point in doing any of that, at least in the case of american pro-lifers as the american pro-life movement does seem to have a vast membership, so there could probably be plenty to replace this priest for example.
the way to deal with the issue is to shut the clinics and move to a system of home abortions in conjunction with gp or hospitals, with the hospitals doing surjical abortions. with no physical infrastructure specifically dedicated to abortion then there isn't anywhere to actually protest. protesting outside somewhere that does a lot of stuff is likely going to be a waste of their time.

smacl · 23-06-2019 05:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think there would be any point in doing any of that, at least in the case of american pro-lifers as the american pro-life movement does seem to have a vast membership, so there could probably be plenty to replace this priest for example.
the way to deal with the issue is to shut the clinics and move to a system of home abortions in conjunction with gp or hospitals, with the hospitals doing surjical abortions. with no physical infrastructure specifically dedicated to abortion then there isn't anywhere to actually protest. protesting outside somewhere that does a lot of stuff is likely going to be a waste of their time.

Rubbish. The suggestion that our democratically arrived at position should be modified in any way based on the actions of some foreign religious fanatics is patently ridiculous. If it became an issue that they were a persistent problem and in breach of the law, they should be fined heavily for their activities with the monies used as recompense to the affected clinics. I'd imagine that would stop them pretty pronto.

Bannasidhe · 23-06-2019 05:10PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think there would be any point in doing any of that, at least in the case of american pro-lifers as the american pro-life movement does seem to have a vast membership, so there could probably be plenty to replace this priest for example.
the way to deal with the issue is to shut the clinics and move to a system of home abortions in conjunction with gp or hospitals, with the hospitals doing surjical abortions. with no physical infrastructure specifically dedicated to abortion then there isn't anywhere to actually protest. protesting outside somewhere that does a lot of stuff is likely going to be a waste of their time.

What clinics?

The system we have is the system you said would be best.

Calina · 23-06-2019 05:22PM

end of the road wrote: »

exclusion zones are not going to stop these non-zealots from carrying out their protests, as the hoped for outcome is worth any possible cost to them.

Makes them zealots.

amcalester · 23-06-2019 05:31PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think there would be any point in doing any of that, at least in the case of american pro-lifers as the american pro-life movement does seem to have a vast membership, so there could probably be plenty to replace this priest for example.
the way to deal with the issue is to shut the clinics and move to a system of home abortions in conjunction with gp or hospitals, with the hospitals doing surjical abortions. with no physical infrastructure specifically dedicated to abortion then there isn't anywhere to actually protest. protesting outside somewhere that does a lot of stuff is likely going to be a waste of their time.

Shut what clinics? We don’t have abortion clinics, we have pretty much the system you propose.

You even thanked my post where I clarified that Sheehan’s is a GP practice and not an abortion clinic.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 06:07PM

amcalester wrote: »

Shut what clinics? We don’t have abortion clinics, we have pretty much the system you propose.

You even thanked my post where I clarified that Sheehan’s is a GP practice and not an abortion clinic.

i only saw your post after i posted that post.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 06:13PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What clinics?

The system we have is the system you said would be best.

i went from the quote from the article posted in post 1382.
article. https://www.irishcentral.com/news/us...bortion-clinic

the specific line.
Quote:
Last week, Fr. Stephen Imbarrato, a pro-life activist known at the “Protest Priest,” led a prayer vigil outside Dr. Jim McShane's abortion clinic in Glasthule, Dún Laoghaire, near Dublin, before performing an exorcism on the facility.

amcalester · 23-06-2019 06:18PM

end of the road wrote: »

i only saw your post after i posted that post.

Ok, but why are you taking about abortion clinics when you know they don’t exist in Ireland?

And why suggest an “alternative system” when that is pretty much the system we already have.

Are you being purposely disingenuous?

Bannasidhe · 23-06-2019 06:31PM

end of the road wrote: »

i went from the quote from the article posted in post 1382.
article. https://www.irishcentral.com/news/us...bortion-clinic

the specific line.
Quote:
Last week, Fr. Stephen Imbarrato, a pro-life activist known at the “Protest Priest,” led a prayer vigil outside Dr. Jim McShane's abortion clinic in Glasthule, Dún Laoghaire, near Dublin, before performing an exorcism on the facility.

But a brief google before you posted would have shown you that there is no "Dr. Jim McShane abortion clinic in Glasthule, Dún Laoghaire" - there does appear to be a very large medical practice where Jim McShane is one of many GPs and he specialises in

Minor Surgery
Tongue-Tie Release
Mole Biopsy & Excision
Ingrowing Toenails
Cryotherapy
Hydrocele Drainage
Sports Medicine (Joint Injections, Musculo-Skeletal Complaints)
Occupational Health

He also works with the Leinster rugby and the national Irish team and is the deputy coroner for Dublin. http://sheehanmedicalpractice.com/our-staff

So these zealots set themselves up outside a large but ordinary GP practice and named a doctor who performs minor surgeries but specialises in sports medicine as not only an abortionist but the 'owner' of an abortion clinic and without fact checking you repeat that to make an invalid point.

Bredabe · 23-06-2019 06:55PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But a brief google before you posted would have shown you that there is no "Dr. Jim McShane abortion clinic in Glasthule, Dún Laoghaire" - there does appear to be a very large medical practice where Jim McShane is one of many GPs and he specialises in

He also works with the Leinster rugby and the national Irish team and is the deputy coroner for Dublin. http://sheehanmedicalpractice.com/our-staff

So these zealots set themselves up outside a large but ordinary GP practice and named a doctor who performs minor surgeries but specialises in sports medicine as not only an abortionist but the 'owner' of an abortion clinic and without fact checking you repeat that to make an invalid point.

In reality, by performing tongue tie procedures, he enables born babies and young children to feed/eat and speak properly.
A step even further away from 'abortion clinic' then!

amcalester · 23-06-2019 07:05PM

Bredabe wrote: »

In reality, by performing tongue tie procedures, he enables born babies and young children to feed/eat and speak properly.
A step even further away from 'abortion clinic' then!

Pro-life campaigners tend not to care too much about born children.

aloyisious · 23-06-2019 07:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think there would be any point in doing any of that, at least in the case of american pro-lifers as the american pro-life movement does seem to have a vast membership, so there could probably be plenty to replace this priest for example.
the way to deal with the issue is to shut the clinics and move to a system of home abortions in conjunction with gp or hospitals, with the hospitals doing surjical abortions. with no physical infrastructure specifically dedicated to abortion then there isn't anywhere to actually protest. protesting outside somewhere that does a lot of stuff is likely going to be a waste of their time.

The way to deal with disruptive visitors preventing Irish citizens from using the public footpaths and GP's clinics in safety is to cancel their visitor visas and deport them at their own costs, including if necessary a Garda escort on the flight home at their cost as well.

end of the road · 23-06-2019 07:22PM

aloyisious wrote: »

The way to deal with disruptive visitors preventing Irish citizens from using the public footpaths and GP's clinics in safety is to cancel their visitor visas and deport them at their own costs, including if necessary a Garda escort on the flight home at their cost as well.

i think that in reality it would cost us more to try and recoop the costs from them then it would cost us just to pay the costs of deportation and even a garda escort if one was even available.
i think really we have not got enough gardai available for such escorts because of our refusal to invest in insuring good numbers over the past number of years for which we have reaped what we have sewn.

Igotadose · 23-06-2019 07:33PM

end of the road wrote: »

i think that in reality it would cost us more to try and recoop the costs from them then it would cost us just to pay the costs of deportation and even a garda escort if one was even available.
i think really we have not got enough gardai available for such escorts because of our refusal to invest in insuring good numbers over the past number of years for which we have reaped what we have sewn.

For this I'm certain they could deputize volunteers and supply them tar and feathers if necessary.

aloyisious · 23-06-2019 07:39PM

end of the road wrote: »

i think that in reality it would cost us more to try and recoop the costs from them then it would cost us just to pay the costs of deportation and even a garda escort if one was even available.
i think really we have not got enough gardai available for such escorts because of our refusal to invest in insuring good numbers over the past number of years for which we have reaped what we have sewn.

To clear up any confusion, the deportee and not the state would be paying for the early return flight. Presumably they would have come on a return ticket, which can be [date/time; changed at their own cost. Now I'm heading back to the debate without further intervention from foreign troublemakers.

@Igotadose: stick's up volunteers hands.

Kidchameleon · 23-06-2019 08:22PM

Exclusion zones being banned is something I am not sure will work. In other countries where it was implemented, car parks were targeted. There are videos of women being harassed up the street of abortion clinics. Now before someone accuses me of being pro life again, I am not. I am trying to discuss the best course of action in this situation. I dont want to see women attacked as much as the next poster here

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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