Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

joeysoap · 21-06-2019 11:29PM

Anyone know were Fox disappeared to? Haven’t seen or heard him in a long time. Very Brexity for a few years , him and Davis sowed a lot of seed. Never hear of them now.

Spanish Eyes · 21-06-2019 11:29PM

Has Johnson not got a pad of his own away from everything. Idiot.

It is not like he can't afford it. But divorce beckons now. So protection of assets is important.

That's next after the shouting and breaking of plates in the girlfriend's flat.

Sounds like a great PM.

But it is either a plot against him, or he wants to bail out of the poisoned chalice. Either way he comes across as a gob****e.

But the Tories deserve him. Pity that democracy didn't apply WRT to his elevation though. Oh no, it is confined to Tory membership. That's nice.

Loafing Oaf · 21-06-2019 11:41PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well given his, ahem, colourful personal history, who knows?:p I thought something might crop up to disqualify him in the post #metoo era.

Ha, maybe I was right after all.:p Don't think this rises to the level of impeachment unless there are 'further developments' though...

Dante7 · 22-06-2019 12:01AM

Why was Boris in such a bad humour? He was about to be appointed as Prime Minister. He should have been kicking back with cigars. Was he worried about some other story breaking?

Has he now created a story that supercedes a possible story he was worried about? I just can't keep up with British politics.

Professor Moriarty · 22-06-2019 12:31AM

If I'm a Tory MP, I'm thinking that maybe Hunt is looking squeaky clean right now.

Loafing Oaf · 22-06-2019 12:37AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If I'm a Tory MP, I'm thinking that maybe Hunt is looking squeaky clean right now.

Not up to MPs from now on. I'm sure all Tories knew they weren't getting a choirboy in Boris Johnson. As it were...

Spanish Eyes · 22-06-2019 12:39AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If I'm a Tory MP, I'm thinking that maybe Hunt is looking squeaky clean right now.

I think that is what Johnson wants right now.

His ego has been massaged. he knows he is top dog but passing on the poisoned chalice might be something he would gloat at also.

We will see in time I suppose.

fash · 22-06-2019 07:33AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Adam Fleming was unbelievable on brexitcast this week. Making out it was outrageous that the EU's climate change policy was vetoed by 3 countries. I mean you can't have it both ways. You can't have a highly effective and efficient EU that simultaneously respects the will of each country

A few years ago the UK Eurosceptic complaint was that the EU was imposing climate change policy at all.

fash · 22-06-2019 07:36AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But the Tories deserve him. Pity that democracy didn't apply WRT to his elevation though. Oh no, it is confined to Tory membership. That's nice.

And complaints about the lack of "democracy" in the EU, while their PM and entire approach to Brexit is decided by 160,000 paid up Tory member.

weemcd · 22-06-2019 08:20AM

Dante7 wrote: »

Why was Boris in such a bad humour? He was about to be appointed as Prime Minister. He should have been kicking back with cigars. Was he worried about some other story breaking?

Has he now created a story that supercedes a possible story he was worried about? I just can't keep up with British politics.

Few too many chardonnay's to celebrate? There's something highly odd about this story I can't quite put my finger on. Will be interesting to see if any more information comes out.

In the meantime, the Tories look worse than usual and they are every inch a party at war. BoJo will hardly be PM for very long.

ancapailldorcha · 22-06-2019 09:18AM

Mod: No more "Torygraph" stuff please. Post deleted.

Stop moaning ffs · 22-06-2019 09:41AM

Whatever way this all shakes out I hope someone somewhere remembers to give Tony Connolly an award. And lots of money.
His coverage has been outstanding. A clear and accurate voice in the neverending storm of bs and agenda.

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

Enzokk · 22-06-2019 10:32AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Adam Fleming was unbelievable on brexitcast this week. Making out it was outrageous that the EU's climate change policy was vetoed by 3 countries. I mean you can't have it both ways. You can't have a highly effective and efficient EU that simultaneously respects the will of each country

And yet every country can decide on its own to adopt the regulations on climate change that has been vetoed. That is the argument put forth by the UK, they can still adopt the EU regulations outside the EU, but it is also true for those inside the EU as well. They don't have to wait for the EU before making changes, they can do it themselves and when it is adopted by the EU your country is already compliant.

Joe_ Public · 22-06-2019 10:37AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Whatever way this all shakes out I hope someone somewhere remembers to give Tony Connolly an award. And lots of money.
His coverage has been outstanding. A clear and accurate voice in the neverending storm of bs and agenda.

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

Another peach of an article on the website this morning on the alternative arrangements fantasy. It's a long one but should be required reading for anyone looking for a clearer understanding of the issues involved.

I would say, though, that there are definitely some good reporters in the UK, its just they get more easily drowned out by those not either doing their homework or just maliciously spreading biased agendas. Two of my go-to media people would be Anand Menon and Jonathan Freedland who i find to be on the money on nearly all the issues, though i suppose both being committed remainers would tend to chime with my own view of things. Danny Finklestein on the other side, or at least centre tory ground, is generally a beacon of good sense too i find.

Stop moaning ffs · 22-06-2019 10:46AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Another peach of an article on the website this morning on the alternative arrangements fantasy. It's a long one but should be required reading for anyone looking for a clearer understanding of the issues involved.

I would say, though, that there are definitely some good reporters in the UK, its just they get more easily drowned out by those not either doing their homework or just maliciously spreading biased agendas. Two of my go-to media people would be Anand Menon and Jonathan Freedland who i find to be on the money on nearly all the issues, though i suppose both being committed remainers would tend to chime with my own view of things. Danny Finklestein on the other side, or at least centre tory ground, is generally a beacon of good sense too i find.

Ill look them up thanks

James O Brien is great too but in a separate league. Ian Dunt is entertainingly angry on the remainiacs podcast. Weirdly I’ve never seen many articles of his though he is more an editor I guess.

McGiver · 22-06-2019 10:51AM

LeinsterDub wrote:

Adam Fleming was unbelievable on brexitcast this week. Making out it was outrageous that the EU's climate change policy was vetoed by 3 countries. I mean you can't have it both ways. You can't have a highly effective and efficient EU that simultaneously respects the will of each country

This is not only relevant for the Brexiteers. This is general eurosceptic logic.

They say the EU is an inefficient, indecisive, slow and wasteful organisation while they also say it's a superstate quasi-dictatorship run by Germany & France and unelected bureaucrats, who control everything by some force.

These two positions are essentially logically not reconcilable in reality but yet all hard eurosceptics hold these contradictory views. It's been shown many times in the Brexit escapade as well.

Loafing Oaf · 22-06-2019 11:06AM

Jeremy Hunt flashing a bit of chest at the hustings in Birmingham. In your face Boris Johnson and all your 'charisma'.:P

Joe_ Public · 22-06-2019 11:20AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Ill look them up thanks

James O Brien is great too but in a separate league. Ian Dunt is entertainingly angry on the remainiacs podcast. Weirdly I’ve never seen many articles of his though he is more an editor I guess.

Dunt can be entertaining alright, i just check him occasionally on twitter is all, his feed on the night of the last tory leadership debate was priceless.

I think irish reporters are generally better placed to give a more insightful overview on it all, as they have that bit more distance between it. I do find Fintan O'Toole to be generally insightful and entertaining, though he does tend to repeat himself quite a bit. Kevin O'Rourke is another i like, his From Brexit to Brentry is probably the best insight into how we reached the point we have.

In broadcasting terms, i'd also have a soft spot for Beth Rigby, think she does a rather difficult job fairly commendably all told.

ancapailldorcha · 22-06-2019 12:11PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:

Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast
Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched
Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove
Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute
Steve Analyst
David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

Tell me how · 22-06-2019 12:15PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:
Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast

Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched

Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove

Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute

Steve Analyst

David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

Emma Barnett is decent also. Radio 5 presenter. She is very similar in style and tone to James O'Brien.

Stop moaning ffs · 22-06-2019 12:15PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:
Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast

Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched

Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove

Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute

Steve Analyst

David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

I probably shouldn’t have made it such a sweeping statement but you never see or hear these voices. Or I haven’t at least. . They’re drowned out by the dark agenda side of it in my experience.

Strazdas · 22-06-2019 01:42PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:
Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast

Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched

Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove

Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute

Steve Analyst

David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

George Parker of the FT and John Rentoul of The Indpendent are good as well

ToBeFrank123 · 22-06-2019 02:01PM

I've a feeling Boris's bustup with his girlfriend is a foretaste of what we can expect as prime minister.

He's going to go to Brussels and tell them all to F off and they will reciprocate.

He's a bumbling hothead.

ancapailldorcha · 22-06-2019 02:06PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I probably shouldn’t have made it such a sweeping statement but you never see or hear these voices. Or I haven’t at least. . They’re drowned out by the dark agenda side of it in my experience.

In fairness, they've been drowned out. Personality and Unicorns trump moderation and depth sadly.

Nody · 22-06-2019 02:28PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, they've been drowned out. Personality and Unicorns trump moderation and depth sadly.

Here's the secret way to get around moderation lads; bring out those cornetto horses!

Seriously though I don't think it's so much drowning out as simply the continuation of the decades long stupidification of news. News have consistently been there to "explain" to people what to think. Over time as things move faster and faster and we don't sit down in front of the TV every night to find out what happened the news cycle has to be shorter, snappier and more attention grabbing instead. The specialists news are still out there but who want to read a 10.000 word article when you can get a headline of 5 words and move on to look at the page 6 eye candy (or insert what ever article you want such as football etc. depending on personal preferences) after all? And as it's in the newspaper it has to be true; or so we unconsciously assume after all since they are regulated. Add in confirmation bias growing stronger via echo chambers such as FB et al targeting to show you stuff you like only (to keep you around and keep you content) it simply builds on each other to provide you the information you want to hear/believe and as it's from multiple sources it has to be true after all.

trashcan · 22-06-2019 02:39PM

What the whole thing (and Trump too) is proving is that there are a lot of very stupid people out there. Now seemingly you can't say that because democracy, will of the people etc etc, and you're belittling them and not respecting them. But, f€&ok it, sometimes things just have to be called out. As Forrest Gump said, stupid is as stupid does.

Nody · 22-06-2019 02:52PM

trashcan wrote: »

What the whole thing (and Trump too) is proving is that there are a lot of very stupid people out there. Now seemingly you can't say that because democracy, will of the people etc etc, and you're belittling them and not respecting them. But, f€&ok it, sometimes things just have to be called out. As Forrest Gump said, stupid is as stupid does.

But it's not something new; you can go back to the Roman empire and look at how you publicly bribed your voters with food and wine, or put up games for them to watch etc. And bad leaders is once again nothing new either; hence what makes Boris/Trump/et al worse than before I think is not that they are that much worse but simply due to the news cycle and easy access we simply get to see more of it. This ties in with my earlier comment on shorter articles etc. This reflects as well into debates were it's 60s at best to outline a vision which then by necessity boils down to soundbites.

jm08 · 22-06-2019 03:48PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Whatever way this all shakes out I hope someone somewhere remembers to give Tony Connolly an award. And lots of money.
His coverage has been outstanding. A clear and accurate voice in the neverending storm of bs and agenda.

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

It has probably been useful that the Brixit Taskforce Press Officer is Irish!

jm08 · 22-06-2019 03:51PM

Boris looking very uncomforatable in interview (and refuses to talk about incident).

Its been streamed here for anyone who wants to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/watch-sky-news-live-10315632

Headshot · 22-06-2019 04:04PM

jm08 wrote: »

Boris looking very uncomforatable in interview (and refuses to talk about incident).

Its been streamed here for anyone who wants to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/watch-sky-news-live-10315632

I tuned into it a bit late but did he actually explain how he's going to get the UK out of Europe?

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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