Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

strandroad · 21-06-2019 07:46PM

BloodBath wrote: »

The link is a little psychopath who fantasied about these things. If he played violent video games or watched a lot of violent movies you would also be blaming those. Are you suggesting the porn made him into this monster?

The level of extreme violence combined with sexual assault points to psychopathy. The fact that the defence did not try to argue any other mental illness also points to this as psychopathy is not usable as a plea of insanity unlike say paranoid schizophrenia.

I don't think anyone is saying it caused it. But I don't think it can be denied that it channelled it. A pathological individual can hurt people or animals in many ways, setting fires or drowning cats. But if you have easy access to hardcore torture or sexual materials with children or Russian Anastasias at 13 it will inspire you to act in a particular way.

forumdedum · 21-06-2019 07:58PM

Also, I recall the jury requesting the video interviews of B which they started to watch on the (last) Friday. Then they asked for a larger screen which was provided on Monday.

Even if they were watching 7 of 8 videoed interviews that possibly should have taken 12-14 hours (8 interviews = 16 hours) but I think when they requested videos they had already deliberated for 7.5 hours so I don't think they re-watched all of the video interviews. That's not accounting for if they started watching again on the bigger screen on the final Monday.

Just some thoughts. Possibly they saw enough of the boy's demeanour to find him guilty.

When the verdict was reached lunchtime Tuesday I was expecting it to be Thursday/Friday

strandroad · 21-06-2019 08:02PM

BloodBath wrote: »

If you are looking for or enjoy material like that then your mind is already warped beyond repair.

Kids obviously should not be seeing anything like this but those that actively search for and enjoy it are already doomed.

If he was being forced to watch material like this at a young age you could have an argument. He actively searched for it and obviously enjoyed it.

I don't think it so clear cut to be honest. It's a rabbit hole, even on youtube you can start with a horror movie trailer and have some heavy **** suggested to you in a matter of minutes. Not to mention where certain forums can take you. An adult might recognise the risk, but for an easily attracted child the line between common (online) and normal is not necessary clear at all. It's part of their maturing now, on a par with parental influence and real life peer influence. Would he still hurt someone if he wasn't exposed to such materials? Likely he would. Would he enact that particular set of fantasies at that particular time on that girl? I'm guessing not.

BloodBath · 21-06-2019 08:05PM

Maybe. It's obviously very complex but the starting point is a twisted mind.

By 13 you certainly know the difference between right and wrong unless you have severe mental deficiencies which was never suggested.

abff · 21-06-2019 08:07PM

This whole thing is just ineffably sad. What Ana went through is just beyond words and what her parents have been and are still going through is the stuff of nightmares.

The lives of the two boys and their families have also been destroyed. it's hard to feel any sympathy for the boys, because their actions were so far beyond the pale as to defy comprehension. It's impossible to know the full extent of Boy B's involvement, but it's hard to disagree with the guilty verdict.

I feel a certain amount of sympathy for their parents, who were put in an almost impossible situation when they found out what their children had done and I suspect, based on what I've heard and read about the case, that this was relatively early on and that at least one set of parents may have been involved in an attempted cover up. In some ways this is understandable, but it is also deplorable.

I just hope that I, or anyone close to me, never finds themselves in a similar situation.

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2019 08:11PM

tuxy wrote: »

Are you planning on turning your fantasies into bedtime story books?

You know he lost the phones well before the incident and that's why his parents had given him a basic non smart phone but he usually left that at home anyway.

We know he said he lost two phones

Larbre34 · 21-06-2019 08:14PM

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

You can I suppose but it’s a very grey area. Would you be happy to put a seal of approval on a murder conviction on this?

I know I’m playing devils advocate at this stage. I’m just surprised it was such a landslide decision, although it’s probably safe to assume that 90% of the deliberation time was spent on Boy B’s case.

I've sat on a murder trial jury for 7 weeks, our deliberation was about 6 hours over 2 days and we convicted unanimously once everything was reviewed and every member was fully satisfied in their own mind of our decision, we only had 11 jurors left and that was vital. Nobody had any doubts and a couple of years later I happened to read that our perpetrator appealed and it was rejected on all grounds. That was very reassuring.

You talk about a landslide decision, but its not an election, a unanimous decision after 14 hours of deliberation tells me of a very detailed and methodical consideration, timelines and cross links up on whiteboards, pages and pages of electronic data and CCTV extracts organised into a storybook with a beginning middle and end that leaves nobody in that room in doubt.

I can foresee an appeal by Boy B, I can understand why people here might be concerned about that, but I'm not. He will have his appeal rejected and his rightful murder conviction will stand. Ana Kriegel is dead and it is as much down to Boy B placing her in harms way in a preplanned and deliberate manner as it is to Boy A inflicting that sickening assault.

Both these f**** are murderers and that will not change now.

tuxy · 21-06-2019 08:15PM

abff wrote: »

with the guilty verdict.

I feel a certain amount of sympathy for their parents, who were put in an almost impossible situation when they found out what their children had done and I suspect, based on what I've heard and read about the case, that this was relatively early on and that at least one set of parents may have been involved in an attempted cover up. In some ways this is understandable, but it is also deplorable.

Are you talking about washing of some clothes that had blood on them when Ana was still considered a missing person?
Now you are inferring that Boy A's mother knew about the murder before the body was found. If there was any evidence of that it would have been of great help to the prosecution and would have been used in court.

tuxy · 21-06-2019 08:17PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We know he said he lost two phones

No, we know his dad said he previously lost two phones. Boy B did not talk about losing phones. The only phone he talks about is Ana's, which he used to check the time while they were in the park.

Lucuma · 21-06-2019 08:25PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

There has been many accounts referring to the fact Boy 'A' did not like Ana, it is possible that he did in fact like her very much from a sexual point of view but couldn't handle her unwillingness to engage with him sexually & what he saw as her rejection of him fulled his rage to the point where he decided he was getting what he wanted and then killed her.

No.

A girl testified in the court case that Ana had told her via Snapchat that Ana fancied Boy A. So he was taking advantage of that fact.

iamwhoiam · 21-06-2019 08:27PM

tuxy wrote: »

No, we know his dad said he previously lost two phones. Boy B did not talk about losing phones. The only phone he talks about is Ana's, which he used to check the time while they were in the park.

Yes , we know he told his dad he lost two phones
You said we know Boy B lost two phones . We don’t we only know his father said he lost two phones

wiggle16 · 21-06-2019 08:29PM

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Again, agree with most of what you’re saying but I don’t have to explain why he enticed her out of the house up to the abandoned warehouse. There could have been any number of reasons. It’s up to the prosecution to show that the sole purpose was to seriously harm and kill her. I don’t see how they’ve done that.

People seem to be struggling with the actual premise on which he was convicted. Had this whole thing been planned out and Boy B under the impression that Boy A was going to scare her/punch her/mug her anything else other than seriously harm/kill her - then he should not be convicted of murder. If they can illustrate that Boy B knew the intention was to seriously harm or kill her then he is guilty of murder. That’s all the case against him boils down to and the evidence to suggest he knew is almost entirely circumstantial.

It’s a very big jump from one to the other. Being a scumbag isn’t enough to be convicted for murder.

If he had called to that girl's house believing that he and Boy A were going to do anything other than kill her, he would not have lied about it in the first place. This is quite basic.

If he'd brought her to the house thinking they were going to scare her, and then Boy A attacked and killed her out of nowhere, he would almost certainly have told his parents, like any normal child, and therefore would have been the one to report it to the guards. He wouldn't have covered for him, he wouldn't have lied every step of the way and told at least nine different versions of the story.

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. He lied about being there. It is unreasonable to doubt that he knew what was about to happen when he knocked on her door.

abff · 21-06-2019 08:31PM

tuxy wrote: »

Are you talking about washing of some clothes that had blood on them when Ana was still considered a missing person?
Now you are inferring that Boy A's mother knew about the murder before the body was found. If there was any evidence of that it would have been of great help to the prosecution and would have been used in court.

I'm suggesting that this is something that might be implied from what I've read about the case. I don't know enough about the case to know whether this is something that could be proved in a court of law. Nor do I even know for sure that this is correct, or assuming it is correct, for what reasons the prosecution might have decided not to use it. If I was asked to speculate, my guess would be that it would not be considered proof of a cover up as it was not Boy A himself who washed the clothes.

But the reality is, I just don't know and it is probably unfair of me to imply any sinister motive.

tuxy · 21-06-2019 08:35PM

abff wrote: »

If I was asked to speculate, my guess would be that it would not be considered proof of a cover up as it was not Boy A himself who washed the clothes.

But the reality is, I just don't know and it is probably unfair of me to imply any sinister motive.

If there was any evidence of this the mother would have been up for accessory after the fact. This would not only strengthen the case but also be the correct thing for the DPP to do.

It was announced during the trial that the clothes being washed was an innocent mistake and this went unchallenged by the prosecution.

tayto lover · 21-06-2019 08:41PM

I don’t believe the washing of the clothes is a big issue.
The natural thing for a mother to do with stained clothes is to wash them ASAP before the stain is near impossible to get out. I seriously doubt either boys told their parents what happened in the days immediately after the murder and before Ana’s body was found. They were still meeting and I doubt either parents would have allowed that if they knew Ana they murdered Ana.

Strazdas · 21-06-2019 08:44PM

wiggle16 wrote: »

If he had called to that girl's house believing that he and Boy A were going to do anything other than kill her, he would not have lied about it in the first place. This is quite basic.

If he'd brought her to the house thinking they were going to scare her, and then Boy A attacked and killed her out of nowhere, he would almost certainly have told his parents, like any normal child, and therefore would have been the one to report it to the guards. He wouldn't have covered for him, he wouldn't have lied every step of the way and told at least nine different versions of the story.

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. He lied about being there. It is unreasonable to doubt that he knew what was about to happen when he knocked on her door.

Indeed : also, in his earlier Garda interviews he was trying to clear A's name and knock the investigation off track by saying neither person was with Ana when she was killed. Quite bizarre testimony from a supposedly innocent person who knew at this point his friend had murdered Ana.

tuxy · 21-06-2019 08:46PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t believe the washing of the clothes is a big issue.
The natural thing for a mother to do with stained clothes is to wash them ASAP before the stain is near impossible to get out. I seriously doubt either boys told their parents what happened in the days immediately after the murder and before Ana’s body was found. They were still meeting and I doubt either parents would have allowed that if they knew Ana they murdered Ana.

Yeah good points. Some of the reports are a little confusing but I believe it was Garda testimony in court that claimed the clothes being washed was an innocent act. So it was the Guada that wanted to make it clear the mother was innocent, the same Garda that did a very professional job of the whole investigation.

wiggle16 · 21-06-2019 08:49PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed : also, in his earlier Garda interviews he was trying to clear A's name and knock the investigation off track by saying neither person was with Ana when she was killed. Quite bizarre testimony from a supposedly innocent person who knew at this point his friend had murdered Ana.

And said that he met her "afterwards" and she seemed upset, and that he knew her phone was switched on because she told him the time.

He was trying to make them believe that she was still alive at a particular time when he knew she had just been killed.

From his statement:
When I saw Ana this time I said “hey” but she didn’t really say anything, she looked really down, she seemed upset and she had her head down. I walked on in front of her but we did not really talk. I did not see her or speak to her after that. I am not sure where she went but it looked as if she went back towards [where they had come from].
This was about 5.30pm or 5.40pm. I know Ana had her phone on her and it was switched on because I saw her checking it once or twice and she also told me the time at one stage. I did not see Ana or Boy A after that. I went straight home and did my homework. My father was home when I got back. The first I heard there was a problem with Ana was when the gardaí called to our house asking about her. I have no clue what happened to her.

Strazdas · 21-06-2019 08:51PM

tuxy wrote: »

Yeah good points. Some of the reports are a little confusing but I believe it was Garda testimony in court that claimed the clothes being washed was an innocent act. So it was the Guada that wanted to make it clear the mother was innocent, the same Garda that did a very professional job of the whole investigation.

If Ana's blood had shown up on B's clothes, it would merely have strengthened the case against him - however the jury were satisfied he was indeed present for the murder and did not run away.

Strazdas · 21-06-2019 08:57PM

wiggle16 wrote: »

And said that he met her "afterwards" and she seemed upset, and that he knew her phone was switched on because she told him the time.

He was trying to make them believe that she was still alive at a particular time when he knew she had just been killed.

From his statement:
When I saw Ana this time I said “hey” but she didn’t really say anything, she looked really down, she seemed upset and she had her head down. I walked on in front of her but we did not really talk. I did not see her or speak to her after that. I am not sure where she went but it looked as if she went back towards [where they had come from].
This was about 5.30pm or 5.40pm. I know Ana had her phone on her and it was switched on because I saw her checking it once or twice and she also told me the time at one stage. I did not see Ana or Boy A after that. I went straight home and did my homework. My father was home when I got back. The first I heard there was a problem with Ana was when the gardaí called to our house asking about her. I have no clue what happened to her.

And in a much later interview, he talks about how he knew A would protect Ana if she came under attack (from the made up attackers). This is a cold blooded killer he is talking about and he (B) is supposed to be completely innocent himself. No wonder the jury found against him.

Lucuma · 21-06-2019 09:01PM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Reading again about the stories Boy B told, I wonder if there's bit of truths in amongst the lies.

Like he said Boy A and Ana went into the house and he walked away and then heard a scream that got muffled towards the end.

Could it be that Boy B was there and Ana walked into Boy A and he was wearing the mask and she screamed and he attacked her.

I was initially confused by this too.

No I think what must have happened was B arrived at the location, he sent Ana on in to the house where he told her A was waiting for her (to score with her) and he hung around. Then a few minutes later he also crossed the field into the house to have a look at what was going on

tayto lover · 21-06-2019 09:05PM

Lucuma wrote: »

I was initially confused by this too.

No I think what must have happened was B arrived at the location, he sent Ana on in to the house where he told her A was waiting for her (to score with her) and he hung around. Then a few minutes later he also crossed the field into the house to have a look at what was going on

I’d say he took his overall and gloves out of his backpack, put them on and went in and joined them knowing he’d leave no trace.

Smithwicks Man · 21-06-2019 09:23PM

Won’t let me quote the previous two posts that replied to me on my phone but have to say they’re both well made and make sense.

Maybe I was overestimating how high the threshold is to prove guilt in this case.

One thing’s for sure, the country is a lot safer with both locked up than on the streets.

Lucuma · 21-06-2019 09:28PM

rusty cole wrote: »

wind the clock say 10-12 years and they get out. They go home to a family who are 12 years older in their lives and very much changed by past events. For example have their siblings now written them off and resent their very existence having been burdened with carrying that dark stain by association!! surely the siblings friends would not go near the house as you wouldn't want to breathe the same air as the monsters. again, tough on the family to be fair.

They will have no friends and never will, lets be honest. they missed the teen and early 20's when you really grow with your friends from childhood.
They have no life to speak of or refer to, it's not like "eh mam I'm heading to lucan village to meet the old crew and catch up with my wild tales of a decade plus in sunny OZ!" they'll be moving into a spare room with the same death metal posters and everything else. They'll be freaks, all they know is where they've been.. they'll never fit in or recover ever.. and that's providing they're release is not reported and they're actually left alone..it's one thing to join the pack and throw one kick too many under the influence of drink (Annabelles)
or another choke a child in a blind rage.. but what they did before, during and after is something different, something Evil.

Wouldn't be surprised if having grown up in one, that prison is a welcome home to them, free from judgement and surrounded by like minds. A place where being them or like them is the norm or even celebrated.
I see them getting worse, re-offending or ending up dying by suicide..In fact sad as it is, I wouldn't be surprised if a family member takes a turn for the worse either and the whole family fabric tears apart.

Sadly when scum get out of prison they just associate with other scum.
Like this fella

Fall_Guy · 21-06-2019 09:28PM

Mellor wrote: »

Boy A could very well be a clinical psychopath.
I've no idea why you are making the leap from there to not being in control of their actions? A lack of guilt, empathy, and emotional attachments are traits of psychopathy. There's nothing about being a psychopath that relates to not being in control.

There's plenty of debate over the nature of psychopathy but it's not a completely out there notion that impaired impulse control is an element of psychopathy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3937069/

I suppose the leap I am making is more to do with the fact that none of us, for better or worse, are as in control of our actions as we would like to think. Everything we do / think / believe is the product of the biological / social / cultural /sensory influences that made us who we are up to this point in our life. None of us are completely the authors of our own story. And if there is, as the neurological research seems to suggests, that there is a neurological component that impinges on the behaviour of a "psychopath" who commits a horrific crime, their monstrous acts are not purely an ethical transgression in the way that they would be if a neurotypical person committed the same act. Even if we take the more accepted characterisation of psychopathy as a personality disorder, someone does not choose to have a personality disorder. I have a family member diagnosed with BPD. If I was to try and hold them to account for some of the things they have said to me when in a disregulated state I would have no relationship with them. But the fact is they didn't choose to have the problems they do, and I have no doubt that if they could click their fingers and remove that element of their personality they would, as it has ruined their life in truth.

Now I completely agree with people who have committed such horrific crimes as this one being detained indefinitely as they have proven themselves to pose an unacceptable risk to society. I just can't get behind the notion that they should be continually punished / tortured / treated inhumanely during their detention.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 09:30PM

splinter65 wrote: »

The Scottish schoolboy who was recently sentenced to a minimum of 27 years for the abduction rape and murder of a 6 year old girl was examined by 4 psychiatrists and found to have no mental illness and only a minor personality disorder.Some people just decide to be evil.
There’s no evidence of Ana being groomed at school otherwise we’d have heard about it.

That case in Scotland had commonality with the murder of Ana. In both cases (Boy A) they were acting out ghoulish characters. Boy B was very impressed at the ghoulish mask Boy A made saying it was so cool. There was appalling violence used in both cases too. Obv with Ana she was stronger and fought back harder which made the level of violence used on her so appalling. Hard to get ones head around in this case 2 13yr old & in Scotland a 15yr old A student, having a steady girlfriend.

mrjoneill · 21-06-2019 09:41PM

tuxy wrote: »

If that's what the Jury believes then they made the wrong decision.
However if they believe he was guilty based on what they saw in the videos then they made the correct decision.

Brendan Grehan SC for the prosecution said the evidence against Boy A was "overwhelming" and that the case against Boy B was made out by "lies, untruths and half-truths" he told during garda interviews.

Boy B admitted nothing that it could be considered a joint enterprise this was extrapolated by all the surrounding circumstances inc CCTV & witness evidence. Boys B interviews shows of his ability to lie, subterfuge & downright deceit.

AngeloArgue · 21-06-2019 09:41PM

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I just can't get behind the notion that they should be continually punished / tortured / treated inhumanely during their detention.

Where does that happen in Ireland?

If anything we treat criminals as the real victims

slavetothegrind · 21-06-2019 09:47PM

are you for real, this is the best country in the world for them in terms of outcome. Soft as you like....guaranteed.

slavetothegrind · 21-06-2019 09:47PM

At Fall guy

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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