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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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Comments

  • #3602
    Smithwicks Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,377 ✭✭✭Smithwicks Man


    AngeloArgue wrote: »
    As I have inferred in my earlier post

    Criminal Justice Act, 1964 Malice.

    4.—(1) Where a person kills another unlawfully the killing shall not be murder unless the accused person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, some person, whether the person actually killed or not.

    (2) The accused person shall be presumed to have intended the natural and probable consequences of his conduct; but this presumption may be rebutted.

    The jury can make presumptions of intent on actions alone.

    If we went by your demands for proof of intent nobody could be convicted of murder without a confession.
    We can not forensically know the absolute truth of what goes on in anothers mind.

    Well that’s not true now is it. The proof of intent only applies in the circumstances of joint enterprise. Boy B never actually physically touched Ana (according to what we know) yet he was convicted for the principal crime. This is why it’s such a complex conviction and why intent or knowledge or potential serious harm is pivotal to the conviction.


  • #3603
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,416 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    forumdedum wrote: »
    I have read most of this thread and lots of articles, listened to radio etc.

    Did the Garda only get DNA from Boy A's clothing because he claimed he was attacked? Is it possible that Boy B (or his parents) destroyed his clothing that may have contained blood on shoes etc?

    Did Boy B's phone(s) disappear after or close to the murder?

    Rest in Peace Ana.

    Boy A boots were taken for forensics in relation to the alleged assault on him


  • #3604
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Smithwicks Man wrote: »
    We know this because he’s the one who openly admitted it and, of his own volition, he brushed it off completely and didn’t think it was serious.

    I guess the jury read more into this comment than I would have, understandably

    Well yes. Normally you wouldn’t. A teenager saying he would kill someone? Joking no doubt. Until he does it.

    Of course B said he laughed it off but can we not reasonably assume that he didn’t?


  • #3605
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I’m going to remind posters on one of the main Boards rules - do not debate mod actions in thread. You can send a PM to forum mods or raise it through other channels but do not argue on thread.

    Thank you
    dudara


  • #3606
    Smithwicks Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,377 ✭✭✭Smithwicks Man


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Well yes. Normally you wouldn’t. A teenager saying he would kill someone? Joking no doubt. Until he does it.

    Of course B said he laughed it off but can we not reasonably assume that he didn’t?

    You can I suppose but it’s a very grey area. Would you be happy to put a seal of approval on a murder conviction on this?

    I know I’m playing devils advocate at this stage. I’m just surprised it was such a landslide decision, although it’s probably safe to assume that 90% of the deliberation time was spent on Boy B’s case.


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  • #3607
    forumdedum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭forumdedum


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Boy A boots were taken for forensics in relation to the alleged assault on him

    Yes I read that thank you. I was wondering if Boy B destroyed his clothing before it could be checked.


  • #3608
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,697 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Well yes. Normally you wouldn’t. A teenager saying he would kill someone? Joking no doubt. Until he does it.

    Of course B said he laughed it off but can we not reasonably assume that he didn’t?

    What if Boy A said “ I’m going to kill Ana” and Boy B said “I’ll help you. I’ll give you tape to subdue her and better than that I’ll bring her to you”?

    Because that’s what actually happened. He supplied the tape and brought Ana to her death. This is more likely because it happened and the jury believed that this happened.


  • #3609
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,416 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    forumdedum wrote: »
    Yes I read that thank you. I was wondering if Boy B destroyed his clothing before it could be checked.

    I don’t think Boy B clothes were mentioned in that respect . Its an interesting question


  • #3610
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    tayto lover wrote: »
    What if Boy A said “ I’m going to kill Ana” and Boy B said “I’ll help you. I’ll give you tape to subdue her and better than that I’ll bring her to you”?

    Because that’s what actually happened. He supplied the tape and brought Ana to her death. This is more likely because it happened and the jury believed that this happened.

    If that's what the Jury believes then they made the wrong decision.
    However if they believe he was guilty based on what they saw in the videos then they made the correct decision.


  • #3611
    forumdedum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭forumdedum


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I don’t think Boy B clothes were mentioned in that respect . Its an interesting question

    I recall reading parents washing blood from clothes twice. I think that was Boy A.


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  • #3612
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Gadgetman496 wrote: »
    Since when do you need a PHD in order to have an opinion?

    It’s fine if you just express an opinion,
    Not fine when you state as a fact that boy a is a psychopath.


  • #3613
    AngeloArgue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    forumdedum wrote: »
    I have read most of this thread and lots of articles, listened to radio etc.

    Did the Garda only get DNA from Boy A's clothing because he claimed he was attacked? Is it possible that Boy B (or his parents) destroyed his clothing that may have contained blood on shoes etc?

    Did Boy B's phone(s) disappear after or close to the murder?

    Rest in Peace Ana.

    All interesting questions that I'm sure are known to investigators but were not presented as evidence. I'm sure in time a book will be written about this tragic, sickening murder.
    I found the medias reporting of the trial lacked detail. Hopefully the author of a book will honor Ana's life and give light to the full truth of what happened.
    I don't know the legalities of serving Gardai given interviews for anyone researching a book about the case and I don't know of any Irish authors who could do the story justice. In saying that Conor Gallagher's piece in the Irish Times is appropriate. I don't know if he ever wrote any books.


  • #3614
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,416 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    forumdedum wrote: »
    I recall reading parents washing blood from clothes twice. I think that was Boy A.

    Yes Boy A mother washed the bloodied clothes twice . She said her son had told her he was assaulted and hence the blood
    What was odd was Boy A was noted to have injuries and bruising by the GP but I don’t recall mention of a bleeding wound
    So where did his mother think the blood had come from is a question I would be interested in


  • #3615
    forumdedum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭forumdedum


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Yes Boy A mother washed the bloodied clothes twice . She said her son had told her he was assaulted and hence the blood
    What was odd was Boy A was noted to have injuries and bruising by the GP but I don’t recall mention of a bleeding wound
    So where did his mother think the blood had come from is a question I would be interested in

    A fine observation. I'm sure there are many questions . . .

    I would hate to think the parents knew.


  • #3616
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    He’s just a naughty boy then? If boy A isn’t a psychopath then I’d hate to see what the criteria are.



    They obviously talked at school.

    The Scottish schoolboy who was recently sentenced to a minimum of 27 years for the abduction rape and murder of a 6 year old girl was examined by 4 psychiatrists and found to have no mental illness and only a minor personality disorder.Some people just decide to be evil.
    There’s no evidence of Ana being groomed at school otherwise we’d have heard about it.


  • #3617
    AngeloArgue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 293 ✭✭AngeloArgue


    Smithwicks Man wrote: »
    Well that’s not true now is it. The proof of intent only applies in the circumstances of joint enterprise. Boy B never actually physically touched Ana (according to what we know) yet he was convicted for the principal crime. This is why it’s such a complex conviction and why intent or knowledge or potential serious harm is pivotal to the conviction.

    You are not taken on what I am saying

    It is here In Irish Law, Section 4(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1964
    The accused person shall be presumed to have intended the natural and probable consequences of his conduct

    The jury can draw inferences about intent from actions.

    You're interpretation of Mens Rea would mean that nobody could be convicted of murder without a confession


  • #3618
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Yes Boy A mother washed the bloodied clothes twice . She said her son had told her he was assaulted and hence the blood
    What was odd was Boy A was noted to have injuries and bruising by the GP but I don’t recall mention of a bleeding wound
    So where did his mother think the blood had come from is a question I would be interested in

    Perhaps he said it was a nosebleed.


  • #3619
    forumdedum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭forumdedum


    strandroad wrote: »
    Perhaps he said it was a nosebleed.

    good point


  • #3620
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    All,

    I read every single post of the first 200 pages of this thread. The more I read the more despondent, angry, frustrated, and croi-briste I am getting.

    So no more from me.

    Today, and thanks to this post - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110474502&postcount=1764

    I contacted RIAG and asked how I could make a contribution to their work.

    They have replied with their IBAN <snip> and I have made a small donation.

    I am not connected to them in any way whatsoever.


    RIP Ana Kriegel


  • #3621
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It’s fine if you just express an opinion,
    Not fine when you state as a fact that boy a is a psychopath.

    The test for psychopathy is just a series of questions. It doesn’t need a phd to actually work it out. You can do it online.

    2-5-% of the population are psychopaths. Which is common enough.


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  • #3622
    Lucuma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Lucuma


    BloodBath wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with porn. Most likely not the parents either. People looking to demonise and punish them are sickening. This is the usual looking for external factors to blame this on.

    The reality is around 1% of boys/men the world over are psychopaths. A smaller number of these go on to become dangerous killers but most of them are horrible bastards.

    This has been the case before the internet, porn, movies, music, video games, possession, the parents or whatever other nonsense you want to blame it on.

    While most of the above can contribute to the behaviour of this 1% it doesn't change the fact that the majority of it is genetic and there is no cure/rehabilitation other than a bullet to the head.

    Many famous "great leaders" of the past like Alexander the great were psychopaths. Many leaders today are too.

    Serious lack of understanding of this in society. Identifying this group of people should be a top priority for everybody as we all know some. The majority of pain and suffering the world over is caused by this demographic.

    C'mon

    There has been a digital explosion in the last 20 years. In just 1 generation we've gone from porn being something young lads saw in a magazine or 1 dodgy VHS which was passed around the whole group to something that's freely available at the touch of a button in their own bedrooms.

    And now we have the youngest people ever convicted of murder in the history of the state. The murder was sexually motivated and involved extreme violence. And the main player was found to have 12,500 graphic images some of a seriously violent nature on his phone.

    And you're saying there's no link between these 2 things


  • #3623
    Loulou11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭Loulou11


    I think maybe boy B filmed it that’s why he said he lost his phone


  • #3624
    Smithwicks Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,377 ✭✭✭Smithwicks Man


    AngeloArgue wrote: »
    You are not taken on what I am saying

    It is here In Irish Law, Section 4(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1964


    The jury can draw inferences about intent from actions.

    You're interpretation of Mens Rea would mean that nobody could be convicted of murder without a confession

    I understand what you’re saying but I didn’t think the scope of those inferences could be so broad.

    I didn’t think that anybody who hadn’t physically committed the murder could be convicted unless it was proven they put the wheels in motion so to speak with the knowledge that serious harm would be done or was likely to be done.


  • #3625
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Loulou11 wrote: »
    I think maybe boy B filmed it that’s why he said he lost his phone

    Are you planning on turning your fantasies into bedtime story books?

    You know he lost the phones well before the incident and that's why his parents had given him a basic non smart phone but he usually left that at home anyway.


  • #3626
    BloodBath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,283 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Lucuma wrote: »
    C'mon

    There has been a digital explosion in the last 20 years. In just 1 generation we've gone from porn being something young lads saw in a magazine or 1 dodgy VHS which was passed around the whole group to something that's freely available at the touch of a button in their own bedrooms.

    And now we have the youngest people ever convicted of murder in the history of the state. The murder was sexually motivated and involved extreme violence. And the main player was found to have 12,500 graphic images some of a seriously violent nature on his phone.

    And you're saying there's no link between these 2 things

    The link is a little psychopath who fantasied about these things. If he played violent video games or watched a lot of violent movies you would also be blaming those. Are you suggesting the porn made him into this monster?

    The level of extreme violence combined with sexual assault and 0 empathy points to psychopathy. The fact that the defence did not try to argue any other mental illness also points to this as psychopathy is not usable as a plea of insanity unlike say paranoid schizophrenia.


  • #3627
    Loulou11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ✭Loulou11


    tuxy wrote: »
    Are you planning on turning your fantasies into bedtime story books?

    You know he lost the phones well before the incident and that's why his parents had given him a basic non smart phone but he usually left that at home anyway.

    Oh yeah and he has told the truth all throughout this case hasn’t he


  • #3628
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    BloodBath wrote: »
    The link is a little psychopath who fantasied about these things. If he played violent video games or watched a lot of violent movies you would also be blaming those. Are you suggesting the porn made him into this monster?

    This sounds about right to me. Remember when it was violent movies and before that rock bands and before that books and before that again scandalous paintings.


  • #3629
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Loulou11 wrote: »
    Oh yeah and he has told the truth all throughout this case hasn’t he

    He gave enough information for him to be found guilty of murder.


  • #3630
    Newdawn11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 ✭Newdawn11


    Smithwicks Man wrote: »
    I understand what you’re saying but I didn’t think the scope of those inferences could be so broad.

    I didn’t think that anybody who hadn’t physically committed the murder could be convicted unless it was proven they put the wheels in motion so to speak with the knowledge that serious harm would be done or was likely to be done.



    He was an accessory before the fact and he was an accessory after the fact.

    That is why he was convicted of murder.

    Fair dues to the jury for the guilty verdict.


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  • #3631
    omega man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭omega man


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I’d love to know what Boy B had in his backpack when he took Ana to the abandoned house to be murdered.

    Well it certainly wasn’t his fcuking Lego I’ll bet.


This discussion has been closed.
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