Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

realitykeeper · 21-06-2019 02:24AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

RK has already decided a whitewash is imminent no matter the findings.

It would be a pointless waste of time to wait the outcome of a self commissioned inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives when this time could be being used to conduct a proper inquiry conducted by a judge for example.

amcalester · 21-06-2019 07:54AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Again the investigation should not be being commissioned by the party being investigated. The fact that it is, necessitates the need for legal representatives for the parents of the deceased unborn child. Only they are being frozen out of the process by the NMH which is going ahead with their self commissioned inquiry to the exclusion of the parents and their legal team. By the way they are behaving, one wonders the NMH has something to hide?

Or maybe the NMH are concerned that anyone put forward by the parents will have the same levels of integrity that you attribute to NMH's choices?

I agree that the parents should be consulted on the composition of the inquiry but I don't agree with your assertion that the outcome is a foregone conclusion just because they were not.

Cabaal · 21-06-2019 08:43AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

It would be a pointless waste of time to wait the outcome of a self commissioned inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives when this time could be being used to conduct a proper inquiry conducted by a judge for example.

Honestly your "concern" is laughable,
You don't have concern about the parents...the only thing you want to do along with all other pro-lifers is use them as pawns to get things reversed in anyway you can,

This is all just whatabouttery from you and your end game is you just want the legislation put in place that people voted for changed. You want to go back to pre-repeal the 8th

This make believe concern about the investigation process is laughable coming from you.

smacl · 21-06-2019 10:04AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Honestly your "concern" is laughable,
You don't have concern about the parents...the only thing you want to do along with all other pro-lifers is use them as pawns to get things reversed in anyway you can,

This is all just whatabouttery from you and your end game is you just want the legislation put in place that people voted for changed. You want to go back to pre-repeal the 8th

This make believe concern about the investigation process is laughable coming from you.

Mod warning: While I've no problem with the broad thrust of this post, as per the charter please limit your attacks to the pro-life / pro-choice movement rather than the individual poster. Thanks

smacl · 21-06-2019 10:27AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

It is an investigation into the unwarranted abortion of their child. I think they are right to involve their lawyers and by representing them, their lawyers agree.

It is an investigation into an abortion carried out at the request of a couple based on incomplete information in relation to a potential FFA. While clearly a tragedy for the couple involved, so far as I'm aware it is not currently a criminal matter before the courts.

aloyisious · 21-06-2019 11:30AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

It would be a pointless waste of time to wait the outcome of a self commissioned inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives when this time could be being used to conduct a proper inquiry conducted by a judge for example.

That's interesting. Do you have a source - say maybe a statement from the couples legal rep - for your "inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives" quote?

lazygal · 21-06-2019 12:04PM

If its a criminal matter the couple should report it to the Gardaí. And a Garda inquiry could take place. In which they'd have no say, they couldn't request or demand their own representation into the inquiry.
The couple chose a course of action based on information. There's no whitewash.

Cabaal · 22-06-2019 09:02AM

There's always an pro-life agenda behind everything.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kilkenny-hospital-unsuited-to-abortions-say-medics-932314.html

Kilkenny hospital unsuited to abortions, say medics

Four consultant obstetricians at St Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny, among them an anti-abortion campaigner, have written to GPs in the region to advise that termination services are not available in the hospital.

The doctors have also informed the CEO of the Ireland East Hospital Group, Mary Day.

The letter, signed by Ray O’Sullivan, Raouf Salam, Yuddandi Nagaveni, and Trevor Hayes, said that, following discussions between the four, it was “decided unanimously that the hospital is not an appropriate location for medical or surgical terminations”.

The letter also says it was “also adjudged that, in the event of professional and values training of staff willing to participate in such procedures, the hospital remains an unsuitable location for these services”.

The medics said that, while hospital staff were committed to the safe delivery of care for women, “the provision of a termination service is not possible for a multitude of very challenging reasons”.

Mr Hayes was a prominent anti-abortion campaigner during the referendum to repeal the Eighth Amendment in May 2018.

In a letter to GPs, Mr Hayes said: “Obviously, if a patient is moribund or with haemorrhage or sepsis, she will be dealt with in an appropriate manner.”

Mr Hayes said the hospital did not have a referral pathway and he had written to Holles St, in the same hospital group, about this.

“My understanding is that Wexford is also not providing the service,” he said.

Mike Thompson, a GP and spokesman for Start, a group of doctors supportive of reproductive rights, expressed worry that their attitude would “embolden other hospitals” to issue similar diktats.

Dr Thompson said it was “effectively institutional obstruction”, and that while they were trying to “conflate it with resources”, St Luke’s was no less resourced than any other hospital.

So even though the hospital is suitable my guess is even if it got additional funding and resources he'd still be fully against the medical services being provided in Kilkenny.
Nice he thinks the women of Kilkenny should be denied perfectly legal medical services.

So,
Who is Trevor Hayes?

Well, he's come out with previous nonsense like this
https://www.irishcatholic.com/muslim-doctors-may-upset-government-abortion-plans/

Ireland’s reliance on Muslim doctors in hospitals around the country may derail Government plans to roll out a national abortion service, a leading obstetrician has said.

Large numbers of non-consultant hospital doctors (NCHDs) working in maternity units outside Dublin are Muslims from abroad, according to Dr Trevor Hayes of Kilkenny’s St Luke’s Hospital, who says he had been personally told that they have serious religious qualms about performing abortions.

Oh and this

Dr Hayes, who was named Obstetrician of the Year in 2009 and 2013 by Maternity and Infant Magazine

But there's also this

https://kfmradio.com/news/07122018-1659/medical-council-inquiry-finds-doctor-guilty-poor-professional-performance

A fitness to practice inquiry has found a doctor guilty of poor professional performance in relation to several allegations made against him.

A case was taken against Kilkenny-based Consultant Obstetrician and Gynaecologist Dr. Trevor Hayes regarding the treatment of his patient Mary Bridget Minogue between 2009 and 2014.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:28AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Honestly your "concern" is laughable,
You don't have concern about the parents...the only thing you want to do along with all other pro-lifers is use them as pawns to get things reversed in anyway you can,
.

Wrong on both counts. My concern is more to do with matters pertaining to consistency and natural justice. I see the parents as pro choice people whereas I would be pro life. So you see, it is more about a principle, i.e. corrupt processes are morally wrong.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:30AM

smacl wrote: »

Mod warning: While I've no problem with the broad thrust of this post,

Well you should. The accusation was wrong.

Mod: realitykeeper has received a yellow card for questioning a mod instruction on-thread. Time and time again the mods have warned that discussion of warnings/cards are to be done via PM and not in-thread.

Cabaal · 22-06-2019 11:34AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Wrong on both counts. My concern is more to do with matters pertaining to consistency and natural justice. I see the parents as pro choice people whereas I would be pro life. So you see, it is more about a principle, i.e. corrupt processes are morally wrong.

You've not shown anything to be corrupt, this is speculation.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:34AM

smacl wrote: »

It is an investigation into an abortion carried out at the request of a couple based on incomplete information in relation to a potential FFA. While clearly a tragedy for the couple involved, so far as I'm aware it is not currently a criminal matter before the courts.

Lawyers perform many functions in our society, not all have to do with crime. Nobody has suggested a crime was committed nor are they likely to when the NMH`s self commissioned inquiry is complete.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:39AM

aloyisious wrote: »

That's interesting. Do you have a source - say maybe a statement from the couples legal rep - for your "inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives" quote?

I doubt such a thing exists, why do you ask?

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:42AM

lazygal wrote: »

If its a criminal matter the couple should report it to the Gardaí....

I`m sure they would. What has that to do with anything?

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 11:48AM

Cabaal wrote: »

There's always an pro-life agenda behind everything.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kilkenny-hospital-unsuited-to-abortions-say-medics-932314.html

Kilkenny hospital unsuited to abortions, say medics

So even though the hospital is suitable my guess is even if it got additional funding and resources he'd still be fully against the medical services being provided in Kilkenny.
Nice he thinks the women of Kilkenny should be denied perfectly legal medical services.

So,
Who is Trevor Hayes?

Well, he's come out with previous nonsense like this
https://www.irishcatholic.com/muslim-doctors-may-upset-government-abortion-plans/

Oh and this

But there's also this

https://kfmradio.com/news/07122018-1659/medical-council-inquiry-finds-doctor-guilty-poor-professional-performance

Quite a lengthy post there Cabaal. Sorry to inform you it was much ado about nothing. Like I say, this is about principle, justice and proper procedures, everything that self commissioned inquiries are not. It has nothing to do with abortion. After all, from what I understand, the parents consented to abortion so that is not the issue.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 12:00PM

On a separate mater (one which has nothing to do with self commissioned inquiries) I would like to raise a point. This new topic I refer to is abortion. If a loved and healthy baby can be aborted based on incorrect information, then this sort of thing can happen again. The abortion referendum was not that long ago and legislation is still being drafted so over the months and years ahead, many more such tragedies can be expected. Therefore, I contend the past was better than the future.

Igotadose · 22-06-2019 12:28PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Therefore, I contend the past was better than the future.

The Dail can legislate now. It's much better
today. Also, Savita would disagree with your "contention"

aloyisious · 22-06-2019 12:52PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I doubt such a thing exists, why do you ask?

Given that you wrote "inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives" I think it is only fair to ask you for a source for your quote seeing as a such a denial would be against natural justice, something the legal rep would rightfully be up in arms against [should it exist].

I see you write that you doubt such a thing exists. That response by you raises [unsurprisingly] more questions than answers. Which is it you doubt does exist? A. a source for your quote or B. an exclusion of the parents and their legal rep as you claimed in your [It would be a pointless waste of time to wait the outcome of a self commissioned inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives when this time could be being used to conduct a proper inquiry conducted by a judge for example].

As to the inquiring 2nd part of your sentence in your post after your apostrophe, I see that as tending to lead us in a never-ending circle. If a source for your quote does not exist, and you posted here that what you wrote was merely an opinion of yours, that would mean the circle of questions about it would end, full stop.

Re your last post above at mid-day today ???, we are on an abortion debate page.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 01:03PM

Igotadose wrote: »

The Dail can legislate now. It's much better
today. Also, Savita would disagree with your "contention"

For every Savita, the future is likely to throw up many more tragedies, as bad and worse than what happened at the NMH or indeed to Savita.

Cabaal · 22-06-2019 01:04PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Quite a lengthy post there Cabaal. Sorry to inform you it was much ado about nothing. Like I say, this is about principle, justice and proper procedures, everything that self commissioned inquiries are not. It has nothing to do with abortion. After all, from what I understand, the parents consented to abortion so that is not the issue.

Looks like you didn't read my post at all, it was 100% about abortion medical services being denied in St Lukes in Kilkenny and the involvement of a pro life doctor.

Perhaps try reading it again.
:rolleyes:

My post that you quoted had everything to do with abortion and nothing to do with your unfounded posts about corruptions about one specific situation and the parents that are being used as pawns by pro life groups (Renua 2.0 for example).

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 01:09PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Given that you wrote "inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives" I think it is only fair to ask you for a source for your quote seeing as a such a denial would be against natural justice, something the legal rep would rightfully be up in arms against [should it exist].

I see you write that you doubt such a thing exists. That response by you raises [unsurprisingly] more questions than answers. Which is it you doubt does exist? A. a source for your quote or B. an exclusion of the parents and their legal rep as you claimed in your [It would be a pointless waste of time to wait the outcome of a self commissioned inquiry which excludes the parents and their legal representatives when this time could be being used to conduct a proper inquiry conducted by a judge for example].

As to the inquiring 2nd part of your sentence in your post after your apostrophe, I see that as tending to lead us in a never-ending circle. If a source for your quote does not exist, and you posted here that what you wrote was merely an opinion of yours, that would mean the circle of questions about it would end, full stop.

Re your last post above at mid-day today ???, we are on an abortion debate page.

Sorry, this is all a bit nebulous. I am sure you are a lovely person and all that put when posting, could you qoute then comment for each point you are addressing rather than referring back to something I supposedly said about something. Much obliged.

realitykeeper · 22-06-2019 01:12PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Looks like you didn't read my post at all, it was 100% about abortion ...

Exactly. Unlike what we were talking about which was self commissioned inquiries. Focus Cabaal.

Calina · 22-06-2019 01:17PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Exactly. Unlike what we were talking about which was self commissioned inquiries. Focus Cabaal.

Do you know what thread this is?

aloyisious · 22-06-2019 01:25PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Sorry, this is all a bit nebulous. I am sure you are a lovely person and all that put when posting, could you qoute then comment for each point you are addressing rather than referring back to something I supposedly said about something. Much obliged.

I have no doubt that you are a lovely person as well but there is nothing nebulous or supposed about what you wrote in your previous posts. As my opinion about circles is being proven by you, I'll only respond to yours when it is worth my while from now on. TTFN.

smacl · 22-06-2019 01:39PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Sorry, this is all a bit nebulous. I am sure you are a lovely person and all that put when posting, could you qoute then comment for each point you are addressing rather than referring back to something I supposedly said about something. Much obliged.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Exactly. Unlike what we were talking about which was self commissioned inquiries. Focus Cabaal.

Mod warning: As per the forum charter, please restrict your comments to the topic in hand and not the poster. You have already received a yellow card today so the next warning will be accompanied by a ban. Thanks for your attention.

Cabaal · 22-06-2019 01:47PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Exactly. Unlike what we were talking about which was self commissioned inquiries. Focus Cabaal.

Just a nice reminder for you,

This thread title is Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

My post is 100% relevant, do you think you get to dictate what abortion related posts people make in this thread?

Igotadose · 22-06-2019 02:24PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

For every Savita, the future is likely to throw up many more tragedies, as bad and worse than what happened at the NMH or indeed to Savita.

Actually, the future won't. Because I say so. There. I've matched your methodology. It's all coming up roses.

Bredabe · 22-06-2019 03:10PM

Local paper has an ad for the bus to the Pro Life rally,
bus is free but a 5/10e is appreciated and will be donated to someone or other.

Other side of that page is an ad for the yearly holy parade of some sort starting with mass and ending in a convent with benediction, which im told will be very popular on a find Sunday.

Those combined with the anti choice news coming out of kilkenny today, makes me feel its still 1988 in a lot of places.

uptherebels · 22-06-2019 05:06PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

On a separate mater (one which has nothing to do with self commissioned inquiries) I would like to raise a point. This new topic I refer to is abortion. If a loved and healthy baby can be aborted based on incorrect information, then this sort of thing can happen again. The abortion referendum was not that long ago and legislation is still being drafted so over the months and years ahead, many more such tragedies can be expected. Therefore, I contend the past was better than the future.

Did medical misdiagnosis not happen in the past?

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-06-2019 05:12PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

On a separate mater (one which has nothing to do with self commissioned inquiries) I would like to raise a point. This new topic I refer to is abortion. If a loved and healthy baby can be aborted based on incorrect information, then this sort of thing can happen again. The abortion referendum was not that long ago and legislation is still being drafted so over the months and years ahead, many more such tragedies can be expected. Therefore, I contend the past was better than the future.

You want to raise a "new topic" called abortion, in a thread entitled Abortion Discussion, part the fourth

What did you think the subject was before you crashed in claiming whitwashes of inquiries?

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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