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Ireland- Minimumwage Land

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    #32
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Our current government is not left wing, they are extreme rightist Goldman Sachs employees who have broken the middle and working classes through housing.

    There’s a conspiracy theory forum somewhere. You live in a mature social democracy, not Somalia.


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    #33
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    kneemos wrote: »
    What do people want for an unskilled job?

    A living wage where they can have all the basics of life.


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    #34
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    There’s a conspiracy theory forum somewhere. You live in a mature social democracy, not Somalia.

    Yet, people think this government is part of a left-wing cable up to nefarious things. When quite the opposite is observable :rolleyes:


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    #35
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    There’s a conspiracy theory forum somewhere. You live in a mature social democracy, not Somalia.

    You think keeping up the same policies whlie we break records on child homelessness year on year is a good reason to keep on with the same policies? Some folk are doing grand.

    My favourite is that PBP/Paul Murphy, Gino and the lads force FG to do anything their supporters don't like.


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    #36
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    amadangomor wrote: »
    A living wage where they can have all the basics of life.

    bring in affordable housing so.


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    #37
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    amadangomor wrote: »
    A living wage where they can have all the basics of life.

    You can arguably work on minimum wage in rural Ireland, and some of the small urban areas like Sligo or Athlone or whatever and live relatively well. Rent in those places is low and so is cost of living compared to many parts of the country. over there minimum wage, which is high in Ireland, would do you fine.

    The problem is Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork and Galway, I've no idea how anyone survives on minimum wage here, seems nigh on impossible to me, but Dublin isn't the only city with these issues, most European and western capitals have the exact same problems, it's very hard to fix. When times are good people flock to where wages and highest (the capital, usually) which means a shortage of housing and the lower earner's being f*cked over.

    So what's the solution? Keep building endlessly? That didn't exactly work out well during the last boom. It's a complex issue that no government almost anywhere has managed to solve and despite our Government being a bunch of incompetent f*ckwits I'm not exactly sure how they solve it either beyond measures like rent caps etc.


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    #38
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    amadangomor wrote: »
    A living wage where they can have all the basics of life.

    They can everywhere except the Dublin area. That's a temporary housing problem.


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    #39
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Cina wrote: »
    You can arguably work on minimum wage in rural Ireland, and some of the small urban areas like Sligo or Athlone or whatever and live relatively well. Rent in those places is low and so is cost of living compared to many parts of the country. over there minimum wage, which is high in Ireland, would do you fine.

    The problem is Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork and Galway, I've no idea how anyone survives on minimum wage here, seems nigh on impossible to me, but Dublin isn't the only city with these issues, most European and western capitals have the exact same problems, it's very hard to fix. When times are good people flock to where wages and highest (the capital, usually) which means a shortage of housing and the lower earner's being f*cked over.

    So what's the solution? Keep building endlessly? That didn't exactly work out well during the last boom. It's a complex issue that no government almost anywhere has managed to solve and despite our Government being a bunch of incompetent f*ckwits I'm not exactly sure how they solve it either beyond measures like rent caps etc.

    Because nobody could afford them.
    I don't think they are trying quite frankly.
    kneemos wrote: »
    They can everywhere except the Dublin area. That's a temporary housing problem.

    We've a generation growing up in it (and an older one remembers the last). Temporary by who's count?


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    #40
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Because nobody could afford them.
    I don't think they are trying quite frankly.

    So what's your solution to Dublin?


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    #41
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I don't think anyone leaves school hoping to get the bare minimum legal wage for their adult life.

    Maybe not, but how many are willing to put the effort in to make sure they don't?

    Hoping to earn more than minimum isn't going to be enough, people need to take actual steps to increase earnings.


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    #42
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Cina wrote: »
    So what's your solution to Dublin?

    Build state owned Social housing and affordable housing.

    Buying at market from companies to use as social housing and renting off companies to use as social housing, while using hotels to pick up the slack is a terrible waste of money for the tax payer.


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    #43
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    Cina wrote: »
    So what's your solution to Dublin?

    Affordable social housing that so many of us grew up in.


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    #44
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    amcalester wrote: »
    Maybe not, but how many are willing to put the effort in to make sure they don't?

    Hoping to earn more than minimum isn't going to be enough, people need to take actual steps to increase earnings.

    Yes, if you leave school at 16 to get a minimum wage job, (the only one available) to support the family where do you suggest they go from there? Take 3 years off to go to college full time? Who will contribute to food and rent?


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    #45
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Our current government is not left wing, they are extreme rightist Goldman Sachs employees who have broken the middle and working classes through housing.

    Wasn't one of the three or so that went over for the annual Bilderberg thingy a GoldSachs chap, hopefully all these unelected lads in suits formulated a plan for world peace and an end to income inequality.


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    #46
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Cina wrote: »
    most European and western capitals have the exact same problems, it's very hard to fix.

    It's actually easy enough to fix, we had housing issues before, the early Irish state was bankrupt, paying reparations to the UK and the British left us with the worst slums in Europe, a program of delivering planned suburbs, Marino, Crumlin and Cabra ended that crisis. We had another crisis in the 60s again due to the need for slum clearance and an economic boom that brought in more workers from the countryside. Both these were solved in a short time through state intervention. The present crisis is a product of right wing ideology that has crept in with Americanisation. FF sold off the social housing stock in the 90s, Thatcher style, built nothing new since, DCC passed planning rules in the recession that banned affordable apartments being built, the only apartments allowed between 2010 and 2018 were luxury dual aspect units with underground parking and their own utility room. Also the cost of a new apartment is about 50-60% tax.

    The present government's solution is, well nothing really, they'll allow foreign investors set up build-to-rent and 'communal living' units for obscene profits. They don't think that the state has an interest in a comfortably housed population, they believe 'the market' should decide. They'll find out how incorrect that is at the next election though.


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    #47
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,211 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/article/2019/minimum-wages-in-2019-first-findings


    Here are the official European statistics on the matter - Ireland had the second-highest minimum wage in the EU. Why do you think that every second job on a building site is filled by someone from Eastern Europe? The minimum wage in places life Estonia and Latvia is around €3-4. You would be mad not to want to come to Ireland.


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    #48
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    blanch152 wrote: »
    https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/article/2019/minimum-wages-in-2019-first-findings


    Here are the official European statistics on the matter - Ireland had the second-highest minimum wage in the EU. Why do you think that every second job on a building site is filled by someone from Eastern Europe? The minimum wage in places life Estonia and Latvia is around €3-4. You would be mad not to want to come to Ireland.


    Severe shortage of building site workers. Eighty thousand or something immigrants needed to fill the gap.
    Eastern Europeans actually aren't coming in the numbers they did during the last boom due to stuff happening in Poland and other parts of Europe.


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    #49
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Minimum wage is only an arbitrarily amount which businesses have to pay workers. It has nothing to do with the money needed to live. So the state makes up the difference through benefits.

    We either need to pay people enough to live or we need to be prepared to make up the difference through social welfare.

    As far as I'm concerned, if someone works a normal working week, they should be paid enough to live a normal decent life (buy a house, raise a family).

    There will always be a difference between high paid and low paid jobs. But I think we should be prepared to pay people enough to live. It's a matter of respect.

    I don't really mind whether we pay at the point of service or pay through tax and social welfare. Tax wealth, not just earnings.


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    #50
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned, if someone works a normal working week, they should be paid enough to live a normal decent life (buy a house, raise a family).

    Unless you're talking about cheap small houses in the country, I don't see how a minimum wage worker can be given a mortgage in any country? maybe with 2 wages?


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    #51
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Yes, if you leave school at 16 to get a minimum wage job, (the only one available) to support the family where do you suggest they go from there? Take 3 years off to go to college full time? Who will contribute to food and rent?


    The government.

    No council estate family are living soley off a single minimum wage income.


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    #52
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Unless you're talking about cheap small houses in the country, I don't see how a minimum wage worker can be given a mortgage in any country? maybe with 2 wages?

    Maybe 30, 40 yrs ago in Ireland. Not anymore with the obscene price of property in this country.


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    #53
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Unless you're talking about cheap small houses in the country, I don't see how a minimum wage worker can be given a mortgage in any country? maybe with 2 wages?

    Yeah it would take a lot of changes. It would require wages/benefits to rise and social housing to increase the supply and drive down the price of houses.

    It would require ambition


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    #54
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah it would take a lot of changes. It would require wages/benefits to rise and social housing to increase the supply and drive down the price of houses.

    It would require ambition

    Such a structural change would be made redundant by the solution though. If min wage workers had easy access to plentiful social housing, then what would be the point of them getting a mortgage?

    I think structurally, economies can't function that way, not everyone can afford to actually own a home, for them housing should be still easily accessible through the local authority. I don't think any country has a set up where the bottom 7% of earners buy their own homes. The country would have to strike oil, and import a large amount of slave labour to make that work.


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    #55
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    For Forks Sake wrote: »
    €9.44 p/h in Holland, 9.49 p/h in Belgium. Italy doesn't have a minimum wage.

    Ireland is 2nd highest in the EU (after Luxembourg, which doesn't really count)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_minimum_wage

    Irish cost of living is also the third highest in the EU (behind Lux and Denmark)


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    #56
    jarvis
    Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭jarvis


    After doing a stint of work experience my nephew took a job in retail. As he was under 18 the minimum wage which he was paid was €6.86ph

    My sister was adamant he wasn’t taking it. He did take it.
    After a while she realized that he was taking home €200 a week net.
    At 16 that’s a lot of disposable income. She didn’t take anything off him but she stopped buying his clothes etc so it was a help to her. She also knew he wasn’t on the street corners each evening.

    I know it’s not strictly related to the original post but at first what sounded shocking bad turned out to be a very good thing for him and her. He got great experience too.

    In terms of adult minimum wage I think theses jobs are aimed at students etc and not necessarily a family leader/ bread winner. Unfortunately I think people will have to train harder and prepare themselves for higher paying jobs and use minimum wage jobs as a stepping stone. I remember always being told it’s easier to find a job when you’re in a job.


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    #57
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Maybe 30, 40 yrs ago in Ireland. Not anymore with the obscene price of property in this country.

    Back then people backed the government borrowing and building housing. Now people are too unambitious to back a government to do something as useful as that.


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    #58
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Back then people backed the government borrowing and building housing. Now people are too unambitious to back a government to do something as useful as that.

    The government ran a budget surplus of €100m in 2018, that could be about 1,000 social housing units. New social homes delivered in 4 years: -1,300

    https://www.dublininquirer.com/2019/03/20/council-owns-1-300-fewer-social-homes-than-four-years-ago

    I think most people would be very happy for the state to build new homes out of it's existing wealth or through borrowing.


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    #59
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    cgcsb wrote: »
    This is also completely untrue. The amount of people who are underemployed, i.e. those who are working less hours than they'd like to, has dropped to an all time low of 4.4% of the labour fource:

    https://www.cso.ie/indicators/default.aspx?id=2MUM01

    I don't understand the point you are making. I was referencing hours being generally cut from 39 to 35ish per week. I have never questioned the official unemployment rates.


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    #60
    Harvey Weinstein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Harvey Weinstein


    The cost of living in Ireland is astronomical, rent, car Insurance, bin collection, broadband, electricity, food, the list goes on and on

    Nobody seems to make the connection between the 200+ billion debt and counting and the insane cost of everything here

    And obviously very few people are willing to make the connection between the astronomical cost of housing and rent and mass immigration


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    #61
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I don't understand the point you are making. I was referencing hours being generally cut from 39 to 35ish per week. I have never questioned the official unemployment rates.

    It isn't unemployment, it's underemployment, i.e. having reduced hours, an all time low of 4.4% was recorded in Q4 2018, as art of a 5 year long downward trend


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