Ireland- Minimumwage Land

Ronaldinho

Auguste Comte wrote: »

We all don't have the ability to be Bill Gates or an engineer or a technician.

Not with an attitude like that. You would if you put in the work/effort.

leonffrench

Ronaldinho wrote:

Not with an attitude like that. You would if you put in the work/effort.

Bingo

kneemos

Paying more makes goods more expensive. Also raises all other pay grades as there will need to an appreciable gap between them.

Mrs OBumble

Auguste Comte wrote: »

What about those people for whom a minium wage job is where their ability peaks, should they not be able to have a reasonable life on what they can earn.

No.

Their key worker should be helping them access disability support services, which will include subsidised accommodation. That is how they will have a reasonable life.

fash

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree here. Wages are relatively high in this country, compared internationally, and the amount of people on low wages is small. Our only real problem is that there are no homes for the population to live in. If you could rent a small one bed apartment in Dublin for €600 p/m, the issue of 'low wages' wouldn't be a thing. The fact that such an aprtment costs €1600 p/m is where the problem lies, and the only way for that to be fixed is for the government to build thousands of social and affordable homes, stop putting families in hotels and paying millions in HAP to landlords. Alas, this government is ideologically opposed to the population having affordable housing, they think that goldman sachs profits are more important.

Exactly - you can rent a decent 1 or even 2 bed apartment in reasonably Central Vienna for €600 (or certainly €700) - plus have a great public transport so you don't need a car, have a bunch of cafes and shops within 500m of your apartment. Given that even a minimum wage (which is similar to Ireland) job actually allows you to live.
It is the lack of supply of apartments (followed by poor infrastructure) that makes minimum wage in Ireland a problem.

Yurt2

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Not with an attitude like that. You would if you put in the work/effort.

Have you ever thought about being an economist?

Title: The Persistence of Low-Wage Labour in Ireland: The Productivity Apologia.

Poor people are lazy. The end.

Nobel prize coming your way.

hatrickpatrick

I totally agree that the housing situation is a complete disaster, but to be fair that's not the only problem - the cost of living in general, not just accommodation, is absurdly high in Ireland. Everything from basic groceries to pints down the pub costs far more here than in most European countries, particularly in Dublin. Unfortunately, the government has abdicated its responsibility to do anything about this because "muh free markets" so I really doubt there'll be any improvement any time soon. Hell, public transport is criminally expensive here, and the government has never restored the subsidy for it to anywhere near what it should be since they decimated it during the recession. That's one of many examples - quite simply, it's not that wages are too low, it's that everything costs too damn much. And this is not the case in most European countries.

I have a huge suspicion that one of the main driving forces behind the cost of living in terms of goods, services and hospitality is the same as that which plagues accomodation - many businesses don't own their premises but instead have to pay ungodly amounts of money to some faceless f*cker who doesn't give a bollocks about the knock on effects for society. Most places I know which manage to undercut the general cost of living are able to do so in part because they own their own buildings and don't have to deal with this.

El_Duderino 09

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I totally agree that the housing situation is a complete disaster, but to be fair that's not the only problem - the cost of living in general, not just accommodation, is absurdly high in Ireland. Everything from basic groceries to pints down the pub costs far more here than in most European countries, particularly in Dublin. Unfortunately, the government has abdicated its responsibility to do anything about this because "muh free markets" so I really doubt there'll be any improvement any time soon. Hell, public transport is criminally expensive here, and the government has never restored the subsidy for it to anywhere near what it should be since they decimated it during the recession. That's one of many examples - quite simply, it's not that wages are too low, it's that everything costs too damn much. And this is not the case in most European countries.

I take your point but The wages are relative to cost of living.

I think it comes back to the age old point of taxing wages on labour but not taxing wealth. So cost of living is high if you're spending money warned from work because it's taxed at about the right level. But if you're spending money earned from wealth then you're laugh because it's not taxed nearly enough.

So wealth is a massive untapped resource. That's where the money should be coming from to subsidise public transport and public services.

Wealth is accumulating at the top around the world at the moment. The reason is obvious.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I take your point but The wages are relative to cost of living.

I think it comes back to the age old point of taxing wages on labour but not taxing wealth. So cost of living is high if you're spending money warned from work because it's taxed at about the right level. But if you're spending money earned from wealth then you're laugh because it's not taxed nearly enough.

So wealth is a massive untapped resource. That's where the money should be coming from to subsidise public transport and public services.

Wealth is accumulating at the top around the world at the moment. The reason is obvious.

Yet, when a wealth tax is introduced, Household Charge/LPT, the Lefties are up in arms!

Auguste Comte

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yet, when a wealth tax is introduced, Household Charge/LPT, the Lefties are up in arms!

Why do you blame "the lefties" when they haven't made a public policy decision in decades.?

Auguste Comte

Noah Smith wrote: »

I think it would be better for society and create more wealth if the minimum wage were removed. Let the market decide what a fair wage is.

Have you any examples of where this has worked?

kneemos

Noah Smith wrote: »

I think it would be better for society and create more wealth if the minimum wage were removed. Let the market decide what a fair wage is.

The minimum wage was introduced so employers couldn't pay with a bag of apples.

Yurt2

Noah Smith wrote: »

In order to create a prosperous economy capital should be allocated efficiently.

That's about as useful as if Paul Murphy logged in and posted 'workers must own the means of production.'

Efficiently allocated capital would have meant the state wouldn't bother it's ar*se educating you and left to you to be a street urchin/chimneysweep.

It's facile.

kneemos

Noah Smith wrote: »

I think it would be better for society and create more wealth if the minimum wage were removed. Let the market decide what a fair wage is.

Hope you don't think employers would pay more.

cgcsb

leonffrench wrote: »

The system is such that anyone can succeed with hard work and climb the ladder all the way up to owning your own corporation.

That just isn't true though. You have to have large amounts of capital already or be very very lucky to accomplish that.

Pkiernan

LuasSimon wrote: »

...How are any of our sons and daughters going to have a reasonable existence going forward ??

By improving themselves and getting good jobs perhaps?

Why do people think minimum wage jobs should be all they aspire to?

kneemos

Noah Smith wrote: »

They'll pay what employees are worth, unless the employees are poor negotiators.

They will if there is a shortage of workers,otherwise they'll take what they're given.

Yurt2

Noah Smith wrote: »

It's better for the economy to invest in the economy through education. Paying for an labour or an asset than it's worth reduces wealth.

It's better for the economy for some to be educated. Young children are essentially economically useless, and many stay economically useless into adulthood. It's not clear to me or other posters were you worth the investment then or now. Childrens' immediate economic utility lies in having them work with their nimble fingers as chimneysweeps and making toys for more productive, promising children.

How are you with a soldering iron? I pay, thrupence and two, and a satchelful lemon sours for a weeks labour.

Austrian school economists (a mode of thought I presume you discovered the other week) live in as big a dreamland as any dyed-in-the-wool Marxist-Leninist.

cgcsb

leonffrench wrote: »

What we have is far from unregulated capitalism. The less government involvement in the market the better. At the moment we have too much which is the cause of the problems you mentioned.

We have regulation, but the regulation is anti poor and middle class. The government position is not to build new social housing and instead compete with the middle class renter by handing large sums to private lords to house people who should otherwise be in social homes.

cgcsb

Auguste Comte wrote: »

What about those people for whom a minium wage job is where their ability peaks, should they not be able to have a reasonable life on what they can earn. We all don't have the ability to be Bill Gates or an engineer or a technician.

We should have a well stocked social housing system that takes no more than 15% of your income. Problem solved.

cgcsb

leonffrench wrote: »

You don't have to be Bill Gates or an engineer or a technician to earn more than minimum wage. A good work ethic goes further than you think.

Incidentally, Engineers pay is brutal.

Yurt2

Pkiernan wrote: »

By improving themselves and getting good jobs perhaps?

Why do people think minimum wage jobs should be all they aspire to?

I'm not from a wealthy family, minimum wage jobs kept me in food and rent during university. Without them I likely wouldn't have been able to complete my education and go on to be a net contributor to this society.

There are many would seek to rob people of their rights to earn a dignified wage before they are ready for higher-order employment. The argument is that it's for the sake of 'economic efficiency'. What's economically efficient about trapping people in low-wage labour whereas otherwise, they could become contributors in terms of both tax and wealth generally?

The answer is they're talking out of their hoop.

cgcsb

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I totally agree that the housing situation is a complete disaster, but to be fair that's not the only problem - the cost of living in general, not just accommodation, is absurdly high in Ireland. Everything from basic groceries to pints down the pub costs far more here than in most European countries, particularly in Dublin. Unfortunately, the government has abdicated its responsibility to do anything about this because "muh free markets" so I really doubt there'll be any improvement any time soon. Hell, public transport is criminally expensive here, and the government has never restored the subsidy for it to anywhere near what it should be since they decimated it during the recession. That's one of many examples - quite simply, it's not that wages are too low, it's that everything costs too damn much. And this is not the case in most European countries.

I have a huge suspicion that one of the main driving forces behind the cost of living in terms of goods, services and hospitality is the same as that which plagues accomodation - many businesses don't own their premises but instead have to pay ungodly amounts of money to some faceless f*cker who doesn't give a bollocks about the knock on effects for society. Most places I know which manage to undercut the general cost of living are able to do so in part because they own their own buildings and don't have to deal with this.

While I agree with most of what you say, the cost of groceries in Ireland isn't expensive at all. Meats in Ireland are especially cheap. For example most of Austria you can't even buy beef in most supermarkets and where it exists, it costs a bomb. Similar in Germany, Holland etc. and let's not even look at further North. The UK has cheaper food, but....they're filthy.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet, when a wealth tax is introduced, Household Charge/LPT, the Lefties are up in arms!

SF was out last night CELEBRATING a new 9 storey apartment development being blocked by ABP because of 'residents concerns'. Basically there are no left wing principles in this country, just lip service.

cgcsb

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Why do you blame "the lefties" when they haven't made a public policy decision in decades.?

eh, in DCC they sure have, they've been blocking housing for the poor for years.

Yurt2

Noah Smith wrote: »

Exactly, they'll pay what the employee is worth.

Sometimes what the employee is 'worth' according to crude and very very basic market mechanisms doesn't afford a dignified life. And there are very expensive social costs on the other end, which libertarians don't price-in or like to think about.

There is always someone more desperate than you, willing to work for less than you, always. We have all sorts of legal mechanisms built up over the years to ensure you don't get tossed out on your backside from wherever you get your paycheck. It doesn't matter what your skill set is or how smart you think you are, unless you've squirrelled away the cure for cancer in your breast pocket - you're as replaceable as someone working on a widget assembly line.

suicide_circus

cgcsb wrote: »

eh, in DCC they sure have, they've been blocking housing for the poor for years.

the less housing there is the more social dissatisfaction there will be and the more people will vote left...imagine if that was their strategy

Geuze

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Why do you blame "the lefties" when they haven't made a public policy decision in decades.?

SF in DCC cut the LPT by 15% each year.

kneemos

Noah Smith wrote: »

Exactly, they'll pay what the employee is worth.

They'll pay what they'll get away with.

Lackadaisical

I’d have thought the growth or the so called gig economy is far more of a problem than minimum wage. The number of people I know, and I would include myself in this, who are being expected to work as self employed contractors is getting worrying.

It’s all fine and well if it suits you, but when it doesn’t, it means having limited ability to plan ahead, difficulty getting access to credit and usually no pension provisions or sick pay.

Gig economy workers are often in far more precarious situations than anyone else in the country and when they try to get social welfare if it all goes wrong e.g. work dries up or they’re sick, they’re often faced with huge hurdles because of how PRSI works in Ireland.

They’re often some of the hardest working people in the country but they have some of the worst protections and more and more of this is happening.

I remember being at a conference in France for businesses and one of the positives about Ireland was our “hyper flexibility” which basically meant you could hire staff through agencies and drop them at will.

For all the talk further up the thread about Ireland doing whatever it is Europe says, it’s absolutely not true. We are usually dragged kicking and screaming into providing the bare minimum of workers rights, much like our neighbors in Britain who are a couple of degrees worse.