Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk · 06-06-2019 12:48PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Trump seems so easily influenced by what others say it is frightening.
Or does he just say what people want to hear?

I think he just says whatever he thinks will make people like him, that is very close to what people want to hear but for him it is about him and not about pleasing others. If he wanted to say what people wanted to hear he would have said the NHS is off the table from the start.

VinLieger · 06-06-2019 12:51PM

Theres the classic example of the eejit on question time saying they got through world war 1 and 2 would brexit really be that bad?

https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/1063212015504818178?lang=en

He is at most 60 years of age so i don't know who this "we" he's talking about is, but he hasn't a clue like most of the other people of his age who use the wars as justification for brexit how bad things actually were during the wars and why its not something any sane nation would willingly commit itself too.

Patser · 06-06-2019 12:53PM

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Watching all the D-Day commemorations and how grateful the British people are to the men who sacrificed their lives during the landings.
Yet they want to leave the very organisation set up to ensure it need never happen again in Europe.

There is a clip on Twitter gone viral, of a D Day veteran being interviewed by a news channel at the commemorations in France yesterday, saying how Brexit worried him, and after the war he was delighted when all the countries started working together. Now that clip is being met by absolute silence by pro Brexit commentators, especially Mr 'My Daddy fought the huns, and I was in the (territorial) Army 'Francois

Edit: here's one link to it

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1136290925368500227

Tell me how · 06-06-2019 12:56PM

Patser wrote: »

There is a clip on Twitter gone viral, of a D Day veteran being interviewed by a news channel at the commemorations in France yesterday, saying how Brexit worried him, and after the war he was delighted when all the countries started working together. Now that clip is being met by absolute silence by pro Brexit commentators, especially Mr 'My Daddy fought the huns, and I was in the (territorial) Army 'Francois

Well, that's hardly surprising. Plus, if they wanted to they'd find some D-Day participant who they'd be able to get on camera saying the EU reminds them of war time Germany.

The irony is not lost though, I'd love if someone showed it to Mark Francois on a chat show and asked him to comment.

The hypcrisoy of so many things around this time is amazing. Like we saw with Donald and his comments on supportive crowds in London this week (the only crowds were the protestors), if you are brazen enough to just lie flat out, you can literally call black white and your supporters will still support you.

Imagine if the EU commented that they were looking forward to trade negotiations with the UK and that the NHS would be on the table. There would be uproar. Donald says it and the comments are accepted by Brexiteers. As always, its not surprising that Farage accepts such comments, it is astounding that John in Macclesfield thinks they are acceptable just to be free of the EU.

06-06-2019 01:17PM

Headshot wrote: »

Watching Newsnight and they are having debate on the next possible Tory leader/PM and my god the choices are awful.

Imagine Boris as a leader, it's embarrassing for the Tories. The man would lie through his teeth to get what he wants and would stab anyone to get there as well.

I suspect people like his charisma but you scratch your head when you see what he's done in politics e.g his gaffs as foreign secretary and his lies a upon lies in Brexit campaign

Johnson is precisely who anti-Brexit people should want. The sooner all these shysters and charlatans are exposed for the frauds that they are the better. The worst thing would be for him to wiggle his way our of this into an eternal "I told you so" higher moral ground. Likewise with Farage. Give them power and let them discredit themselves and the populism they stand for. The sooner all this happens the better.

06-06-2019 01:17PM

Why, by the way, is there such a massive delay between May's resignation tomorrow, 7 June, and her replacement "before 24 July"? Surely they could have done their campaigning so that somebody could take over tomorrow? So much for certainty being important.

Walter Bishop · 06-06-2019 01:58PM

They have to have the selection process to narrow it down to 2 candidates, and then a postal vote of the 124,000 geriatrics, sorry 'Conservative Party members' who will actually select the next PM.

Enzokk · 06-06-2019 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why, by the way, is there such a massive delay between May's resignation tomorrow, 7 June, and her replacement "before 24 July"? Surely they could have done their campaigning so that somebody could take over tomorrow? So much for certainty being important.

That is the Conservative Party rules for selecting a new leader of the party. They will open the nominations tomorrow and it will close on Monday. Then they will check how many nominations there are and go through the process of eliminating those nominees with a ballot from the MPs until 2 are left standing. This will be around the 20th June and then those 2 will have their time in front of the Conservative Party members to try and win their vote.

Seems like this will take a month or so, probably to check who is still alive and to let the telegrams reach those that are. They will also give them time to post their ballots back I think, with the majority of the membership still stuck in the 1970s technology hasn't reached them yet to speed up this process.

An Ciarraioch · 06-06-2019 02:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why, by the way, is there such a massive delay between May's resignation tomorrow, 7 June, and her replacement "before 24 July"? Surely they could have done their campaigning so that somebody could take over tomorrow? So much for certainty being important.

The procedure is that the Tories hold rounds of voting on Tuesdays and Thursdays, starting next week, with the lowest contender eliminated each time - granted, the rule changes concerning the gradually increasing level of support that each candidate requires are designed to accelerate proceedings, but will still take until at least the end of this month to conclude.

10000maniacs · 06-06-2019 02:09PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres the classic example of the eejit on question time saying they got through world war 1 and 2 would brexit really be that bad?

https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/1063212015504818178?lang=en

He is at most 60 years of age so i don't know who this "we" he's talking about is, but he hasn't a clue like most of the other people of his age who use the wars as justification for brexit how bad things actually were during the wars and why its not something any sane nation would willingly commit itself too.

He is right, A no deal Brexit is not as bad as London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Leeds getting bombed to smithereens every night and their entire navy getting blown out of the water. Not as bad as half a million people getting slaughtered.
Its not as bad as having to eat powdered eggs and tripe for 8 years.
but its not a good enough reason to do it.
This Brexit cult in the UK never ceases to amaze me.:)

Leroy42 · 06-06-2019 02:25PM

It is also quite amazing that the Brexiteers went mad that Obama said anything prior to the vote but now are happy to let Trump trash the Lord Mayor of London, call out the princess and then claim that the NHS is in play. This after he had previously said that the PM was not doing a good job. Surely people like Johnson and JRM should be telling Trump be wind his neck in and stay in his lane?

Tell me how · 06-06-2019 02:51PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is also quite amazing that the Brexiteers went mad that Obama said anything prior to the vote but now are happy to let Trump trash the Lord Mayor of London, call out the princess and then claim that the NHS is in play. This after he had previously said that the PM was not doing a good job. Surely people like Johnson and JRM should be telling Trump be wind his neck in and stay in his lane?

They want to live in a world where the UK is at the table of Global strategic conversation with America, China, Russia, the EU, etc. Not that the UK is a strong member of the EU but sitting there under the EU flag.

It is simply because they can afford to have take this position knowing that they and their immediate generation will not suffer adversely should this be the case.

If you had enough income to guarantee your standard of living, if you had been raised on a narrative that your country ruled the world, it is understandable that you might want to return to the perception of that.

It is the childhood playground game 'King of the Castle' played out in adulthood with global implications.

El Weirdo · 06-06-2019 03:04PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is also quite amazing that the Brexiteers went mad that Obama said anything prior to the vote but now are happy to let Trump trash the Lord Mayor of London...

Just on a point of order, Sadiq Khan is the Mayor of London. The Lord Mayor of London is something different.

Sorry for being a pedant.

Capt'n Midnight · 06-06-2019 07:33PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Ford factory in Wales could be closing in 2020. Again Brexiters will be straight on their keyboards saying it's nothing to do with them.

Regardless this means that UK cars will have fewer options for using UK parts.

It means cars made in the UK will rely more on EU imports, and that means under strict trade rules they may not qualify as UK cars anymore.

Engines to be made in Mexico now.

The same Mexico that Trump is imposing 5% tariffs on. Good margins in the volume car industry are between 4% - 6%. This may give a clue on how Ford who have good US connections view the likelihood of the UK getting the greatest ever trade deal with the US.

volchitsa · 06-06-2019 07:44PM

Had to laugh at Trump telling Ireland how good Brexit is going to be for us!

For one thing it shows how ill-informed he is (and that's without mentioning our "wall"!) but also how much spoofing he's doing, telling people whatever he thinks they'll be happiest to hear, regardless of reality - if I were the British I'd be quite worried.

Only a couple of days ago we were told how much pressure he was going to put on Varadkar to give in so Brexit could happen. Well now we know how sincere his concern for the UK and Brexit was!

Leroy42 · 06-06-2019 09:11PM

What appears to have been lost during the opening salvos of the Tory election is that despite much noise and grandstanding not one of the candidates have any new ideas.

At best they are rehashing previously debunked ideas with the only real 'idea' being No Deal.

It is clear that despite all the complaining about TM not one of them has any better ideas

Tell me how · 06-06-2019 09:19PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

What appears to have been lost during the opening salvos of the Tory election is that despite much noise and grandstanding not one of the candidates have any new ideas.

At best they are rehashing previously debunked ideas with the only real 'idea' being No Deal.

It is clear that despite all the complaining about TM not one of them has any better ideas

The only new idea there is for a Tory relates to taking a step back, either to support a peoples vote or to revoke A50.

Maybe if things had turned out differently, Anna Soubry might have been considered a contender and if so, would have likely forwarded such ideas, but in the current climate, that is a sure fire way to not only rule yourself out of the leadership party but also to face alienation from the party ala Dominic Grieve.

BluePlanet · 06-06-2019 09:27PM

Haven't seen this posted yet:

The British official who was in charge of Brexit border preparations, Karen Wheeler, has left her job, a UK official said on Thursday.

Wheeler's job was to ensure that the UK's borders remained efficient and secure as it exits the EU. She was the lead coordinator across the British government on ensuring a "frictionless" border after Brexit.

Wheeler said earlier this year that there was no magic technological solution for preventing a hard border in Ireland after Brexit.

She said the UK would need a customs union with the EU, plus something that looks like a single market, to have completely free movement of goods across the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

Her parting shot: I believe the context is that at the next brexit date:

"They are likely to inherit a set of plans for No Deal that are not much more developed than they were in March."

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/british-official-karen-wheeler-who-was-in-charge-of-uks-brexit-border-preparations-has-left-her-job-38189418.html

06-06-2019 09:55PM

Regarding that Ford factory, which it has been confirmed is closing: Ford set to close Bridgend engine plant in 2020.

Here's the result of Bridgend's Brexit vote: Stay in the EU: 45.4%. Leave the EU: 54.6%

Well. They reap what they sow. Maybe Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson will replace those jobs?

Like Hell it has nothing to do with Brexit. There was a change in car demand and they decided where they'd invest to facilitate new manufacturing and they decided to not invest in that British plant and instead shut it and invest elsewhere. And this is just the start of it. All the firms which depended upon that massive Ford plant. What's going to happen to them? It will be like Cork in the early 1980s. It wasn't just Ford which shut down; Dunlop (which in 1972 employed 1800 people in Cork) also closed down as did loads of other similar companies.

Leroy42 · 06-06-2019 10:06PM

Again, even if people try to claim it has nothing to do with Brexit, there is a complete lack of any sort of plan of how the UK are planning to deal with these changes.

Even if Brexit could somehow end up being a success, there is no doubt that it will involve some industries losing out. Transport companies that deliver in the EU being a simple example. What is the plan to deal with that? Nobody even seems to be talking about it.

UK has a bright future is all they say. Are they implementing new educational targets, apprenticeships, investment funds.

That's the glaring hole, well one of them, in all of this. No future plans at all. Apparently everything is going to stay exactly the same except much better.

06-06-2019 10:13PM

It is still far and away the most dispiriting thing to see no coordinated, united pro-Remain movement. 55 million people in England and nobody to lead them. All they have is Ken Clarke, who increasingly reminds me of the great Tony Benn (without the left-wing stuff) in the 1980s; a lone voice speaking passionately and eloquently for those who have no voice.

It is utterly shameful that young, intelligent, European-minded English people have not emerged to lead. They have surrendered their country's future to rank opportunists and populists who are screamingly obviously frauds preying on ignorant and marginalised people who want to hit out against how rising capitalism has left them behind.

We all should be brushing down our knowledge of Germany after the Wall Street Crash to see the danger of populists taking power. Anybody who thinks what the Nazis achieved was a once-off, an aberration of human history, is profoundly wrong. Profoundly. The dominant theme in Brexit is the same as the one that led to the rise of Hitler: the need for outsider scapegoats for domestic failings. Bit by bit they remove democratic safeguards and protections on work and livelihood. As Britain gets more desperate for business, watch that very space. We've seen that other crypto-fascist populist,Viktor Orban, do something very similar to workers' rights in the past year, while waving the most nationalistic of flags.

Sam Russell · 06-06-2019 11:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is still far and away the most dispiriting thing to see no coordinated, united pro-Remain movement. 55 million people in England and nobody to lead them. All they have is Ken Clarke, who increasingly reminds me of the great Tony Benn (without the left-wing stuff) in the 1980s; a lone voice speaking passionately and eloquently for those who have no voice.

It is utterly shameful that young, intelligent, European-minded English people have not emerged to lead. They have surrendered their country's future to rank opportunists and populists who are screamingly obviously frauds preying on ignorant and marginalised people who want to hit out against how rising capitalism has left them behind.

We all should be brushing down our knowledge of Germany after the Wall Street Crash to see the danger of populists taking power. Anybody who thinks what the Nazis achieved was a once-off, an aberration of human history, is profoundly wrong. Profoundly. The dominant theme in Brexit is the same as the one that led to the rise of Hitler: the need for outsider scapegoats for domestic failings. Bit by bit they remove democratic safeguards and protections on work and livelihood. As Britain gets more desperate for business, watch that very space. We've seen that other crypto-fascist populist,Viktor Orban, do something very similar to workers' rights in the past year, while waving the most nationalistic of flags.

Given the day that is in it, the rise of the Nazi party in Germany is of relevance. Look at the rise of McCarthyism in America in the 1950s, as that is another populist movement that had no real relevance to people's lives but was an escape from real problems blamed on reds under the bed.

Trump currently is blaming Mexicans for whatever. It is all a familiar pattern.

Will the UK wake up in time?

ArmaniJeanss · 06-06-2019 11:48PM

Peterborough by-election seems mighty close - talk that Labour might actually have held it from the Brexit Party who were 1/5 fav.

joeysoap · 07-06-2019 12:14AM

Nicky Morgan hinting that EU changing their stance on WA and backstop. QT tonight.

BonnieSituation · 07-06-2019 12:45AM

joeysoap wrote: »

Nicky Morgan hinting that EU changing their stance on WA and backstop. QT tonight.

Are we now?

That would seem like quite the about turn given all we've heard ad nauseum since day one.

Do they not tire themselves out of shovelling this plop?

joeysoap · 07-06-2019 01:20AM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are we now?

That would seem like quite the about turn given all we've heard ad nauseum since day one.

Do they not tire themselves out of shovelling this plop?

Nickys not the worst of them. She was endorsing Gove for leader of the party and therefore PM.

Laois_Man · 07-06-2019 02:12AM

Labour have held Peterborough by 683 votes ahead of BP - Tory vote held up well

Labour 10,484
Brexit Party 9,801
Conservative 7,243
Lib Dems 4,159
Green 1,035
UKIP 400
CPA 162
English 153
SDP 135
Looney 112
IND 101

It is worth noting by the way that this month 3 years ago, Peterborough voted 60.9% leave!
In this by-election, The Brexit Party + Tory's + UKIP = 51.6%

Anteayer · 07-06-2019 02:21AM

joeysoap wrote: »

Nicky Morgan hinting that EU changing their stance on WA and backstop. QT tonight.

The Tories have been wishfully thinking that for years!

Why would the EU throw one of its own member states and a founder member of the Eurozone under the bus to facilitate a country that's leaving the EU and being openly hostile to it? It makes absolutely no sense and would undermine everything that the EU stands for.

The EU negotiators have been absolutely stedfast and unequivocal in supporting the Irish backstop position. The UK also has basically no bargaining power at all other than to threaten to destroy its own economy.

The EU has been accommodating with extensions, but it hasn't blinked and I think it's becoming increasingly unlikely that it will, particularly as the UK's position has become ever less tenable.

I find the Tories still do not understand that the UK is not seen as a EU member anymore. It's seen as an external threat! They've continuously made comments and moves that are not only just about exiting the EU, but that would seem to have been suggesting that it should be dismantled or destroyed in some cases too.

We even have had a British Government minister coming out with nonsense about starving an EU member! That's like something a Russian political figure might say about a former Eastern bloc country. The Tories really have no perspective or ability to see themselves in the mirror.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tory-mp-threatens-ireland-with-brexit-food-shortages-890762.html

Meanwhile you've had Home Office 'hostile environment' policies applied to EU citizens in the UK and so on.

It's like they are not comprehending that they've made a decision to leave, burn the bridges and go. That means the EU no longer has any reason to treat the UK as a member anymore. So, the UK's interests are no longer the EU's interests, but Ireland as a member *is* a component of the EU.

I would listen to Tories' speculation on the EU much like I would read the The Daily Express, largely for comic value only.

Laois_Man · 07-06-2019 02:36AM

joeysoap wrote: »

Nicky Morgan hinting that EU changing their stance on WA and backstop. QT tonight.

Katya Adler from the BBC was also spouting it out early this morning - some rubbish about how the EU are so scared of no-deal, they want to "de-dramatise" the backstop by setting out a backstop-ending timetable where bits of it can be shaved away gradually as post-Brexit trade talks progress, possibly via a separate legal document attached to the Withdrawal Agreement,

Alternatively there is a suggestion that the new UK PM will return to the original EU idea of a NI only backstop.

Unfortunately she has willfully chosen to ignore the fact that the first option isn't really new. The WA in its current form and with the possibility of none of it getting "shaved away" if trade-talks are not progressing, still has to pass thru parliament.

And the second option creates a UK general election with the DUP withdrawing support for the government, thus leaving no majority and the new PM possibly breaking the record as the shortest ever serving PM which currently stands at 119 days - and even that was only so short because that PM (George Canning) croaked it that soon after getting the job!

ambro25 · 07-06-2019 09:59AM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Labour have held Peterborough by 683 votes ahead of BP - Tory vote held up well

Labour 10,484
Brexit Party 9,801
Conservative 7,243
Lib Dems 4,159
Green 1,035
UKIP 400
CPA 162
English 153
SDP 135
Looney 112
IND 101

It is worth noting by the way that this month 3 years ago, Peterborough voted 60.9% leave!
In this by-election, The Brexit Party + Tory's + UKIP = 51.6%

For Remainers, there really is nothing to crow about, particularly in view of the previous MP-electing figures (Lab at 10k, down 13k from 23k; Cons at 7k, down 16k from 23k as well).

29k votes were stripped from the Lab/Con mainstays relative to the previous election, with 10k of these to the Brexit Party and only 3k of these to the LibDems, leaving 16k (ex-)votes floating about in the wind.

The Tories underperformed the brand-shiny-new Brexit Party by 30%, that's going to influence the party's policies and messages further, just like it did in view of the UKIP vote yesteryear.

The 700-odd majority by the Labour MP candidate, campaigning on local issues relative to a parachuted candidate of a months-old single-issue 'party', looks more accidental than anything in that context.

Personally, I find that worrying for the UK.

That second referendum some are pushing? Bad idea if you ask me.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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