Getting into Forestry

Hi One More Toy,

I was intrigued with your proposal to take out a loan for some agri land and cover some of the payment with the premium. The loans in these examples are BofI's investor loan for 75% of the cost for 10 years. Planting scheme is GPC5 (broadleaf at €605.00 per ha for <10ha). For simplicity sake, I've reduced this down to costs for a single acre. At a purchase price of €5000 per acre (€1250 down payment), you'd have to put up €19.35 a month to make up the difference. At €7000 per acre (€1750 down payment), it would rise to €35.25 per month to make up the difference. At the lower end of the scale it might be worth it on a small holding.
On the other hand, the existing forestry can go for less than €2000 an acre. At the moment, a seller in Mayo has 14 acres on offer for €1785 per acre. This is on DoneDeal. There are several other bits of forestry on DoneDeal at the moment although none of the others have prices. If you're thinking of going down the existing plantation route, I would suggest you have a registered forester evaluate it before making any move. For a couple hundred Euro you'll get the yield class info, a rough value compared to other plantation sales in the area, recommendations as to thinning, roads, felling licenses, etc.. We found this invaluable as we were serious newbies to the world of commercial forestry.
As Accidentally mentions, the amount of work can be overwhelming. Fortunately we first saw our plantation in good condition. Then Darwin struck. If we had seen that level of destruction, we would have run a mile. Now we just shrug our shoulders and add any new damage to the list which we now know we will never get to the end of. We had 90% of the Darwin damage cleaned up when Ophelia hit. Half a year on, I'm maybe through about 10% of that hit. It will take me over a year (I do have to actually "work" sometime) to clear the one area I'm working on and there are several more after it.
Having said all that, I'm never happier than a good day in the woods with a couple of chainsaws, winches and all the other stuff untangling a mass of Sitka.

dto001 wrote: »

Excuse for rehashing this post.
Can anyone tell me how exactly you can make money from buying existing forestry?
Is it just the thinning’s and clear fell or is there other means?
And what about replanting after clear felling?

Thanks in advance

A Forest has a lot of outputs.
Some are obvious
Some less so.
If you just sell roundwood from thinning and clearfell and use a contractor then you will not make much (unless you have a large area and a GOOD crop)
Money is generated in forestry when work is done on the trees.
nurseries, planters, grass clearing, fencing, site preparation, these folk all get paid.

the guy/gal who cuts them and moves them to roadside gets paid
the haulier gets paid
the sawmills make a profit too on roundwood they convert to lumber.


Other outputs like amenity use and wild food may make less money but generate significant goodwill.


For Example I regularly host Scout troops who wish to cut pioneering poles in my forest, I get paid for this and generally enjoy my day with the scouts in the woods.


hope this helps
tim

dto001 wrote: »

Sorry again im still a bit confused.

If i buy say 20 acres of 20 year old forestry mainly conifers how do i get a return on my money?
As there is no grant on it and If i have to contract in people and not make any money on it whats the point? And there are people buying it all the time, I just dont understand why and how they make money?

I would love to have some for my own use but i cant justify just having it for fun.

Thanks again

Well, lets imagine its a plot of Sitka spruce and its been thinned once and roads have been made.

There will be a few pound from subsequent thins even if contractors are used as the produce will have higher value with a higher proportion of pallet wood and sawlog.
At clear fell say about year 35, there will be a big chunk of change and replanting costs are not excessive.
after replanting at year 15-18 you'll be first thinning again very little money this time, but subsequent thins will make more money and

after another 35 yrs or so you've another clearfell on your hands.
So by buying forest at 20 yrs old, you have received the benefit of two 35 year rotations and clearfells over the next 50 years.
tim


A forester will be able to help you quantify these financial yields on any particular plot you may want to look at.
It is my understanding that high yield class sitka plantations can be very profitable if managed properly.

One More Toy wrote: »

Hello,

I'm back again with buying a forest in mind in the next 5 years or so. In the meantime I'd like to learn all I can about it.

Could anyone point me towards any resources to learn more?

Thank you in advance

How'r'ya again one more toy, How about a "
Reading List" to get you started.
Farm Woodland Management by John Blyth, Julian Evans, William E. S. Mutch, Caroline Sidwell ISBN 0-85236-173-4 Published 1987

Plantation Silviculture in Europe by Peter Savill, Julian Evans, Daniel Auclair, Jan Falck ISBN 0-19-854908-3 Oxford University Press

Growing Broadleaves by Padraic M. Joyce ISBN 0-9523938-9-1 COFORD

The Silviculture of trees used in British Forestry by Peter S Savill ISBN 0-85198-739-7 CABI Publishing
The Woodland Way by Ben Law ISBN 978-1-85623-009-4 Published by Permanent Publications

You should be able to find these online easily enough, indeed most are probably available through the public library system. The first covers the practical aspects nicely.
The second "Plantation Silviculture" goes considerably deeper into the subject.

The third Growing Broadleaves gives specific guidelines for individual broadleaf species and has useful information on timber properties which helps a great deal when sourcing markets for your produce.

The Fourth book whilst similar in scope to the third covers more species and will be useful in helping you decide whether a particular species is desirable for you in any plantation you might buy.

The last is a permaculture approach to small woodland management, and useful in identifying all the potential outputs of your forest. hope this helps tim Of course you are welcome to contact me by pm I'll give you my number if you'd like a chat.

How'r'ya again one more toy, How about a Reading List to get you started. Farm Woodland Management by John Blyth, Julian Evans, William E. S. Mutch, Caroline Sidwell ISBN 0-85236-173-4 Published 1987. Plantation Silviculture in Europe by Peter Savill, Julian Evans, Daniel Auclair, Jan Falck ISBN 0-19-854908-3 Oxford University Press. Growing Broadleaves by Padraic M. Joyce ISBN 0-9523938-9-1 COFORD. The Silviculture of trees used in British Forestry by Peter S Savill ISBN 0-85198-739-7 CABI Publishing. The Woodland Way by Ben Law ISBN 978-1-85623-009-4 Published by Permanent Publications You should be able to find these online easily enough, indeed most are probably available through the public library system. The first covers the practical aspects nicely. The second Plantation Silviculture goes considerably deeper into the subject. The third Growing Broadleaves gives specific guidelines for individual broadleaf species and has useful information on timber properties which helps a great deal when sourcong markets for your produce. The Fourth book whilst similar in scope to the third covers more species and will be useful in helping you decide whether a particular species is desirable for you in any plantation you might buy. The last is a permaculture approach to small woodland management, and useful in identifying all the potential outputs of your forest. hope this helps tim Of course you are welcome to contact me by pm and I'll give you my number if you'd like a chat.

Mod, feel free to move this post if it is more appropriate to elsewhere. I was at a quiz before covid when a question was asked: what percentage of Ireland is agricultural land? Whatever answer was given, somebody objected that it should be more if forestry were included. On checking it seems neither the Dept of Agriculture nor Teagasc nor the Farmer's Journal count forestry as agricultural land. Why not?

I'd like to buy a plot myself as I see the financial opportunities in it but realistically I'm not sure how sustainable a firewood business is these days, I'm guessing it would have to be very small scale or there would be investment required for kiln drying. Where did you find the woodland for sale out of interest?

Completely agree and I never said the opportunities I saw were in firewood. A lot of houses being built these days without chimneys, another 20 years will there be much demand for firewood at all?? I reckon you'd make a decent few bob selling ash etc. to saw mills, timber isn't exactly cheap at the moment.

Being a short distance is from your base is very important, only 20 minutes away will be a plus. If it's too far away, each trip there will become an major expedition. Being close by, you can pop over, do a few hours work without having to commit entire days.

Don't underestimate the equipment required to extract timber. In the beginning we were pulling out the odd smaller trees for firewood (with nothing but a pickup and a chainsaw) but were soon forced to deal with much bigger wind-thrown stems (in large numbers). Bigger timber means bigger equipment. Eventually you'll need something like a compact tractor and small trailer/crane if you plan to remove any substantial quantity of logs.

80 to 90% of what we extract goes to firewood, the rest goes to a local Woodmizer for planking. To heat a small, poorly insulated farmhouse, we go through about 20 cubic meters of seasoned Sitka and lodgepole per year. As long as it is split fresh and properly stacked it will season in 4 to 6 months (assuming some of that time is over the summer).

Working your own plantation is very satisfying and converting it over to Continuous Cover is an admirable long term goal. If you have the the time and the means, go for it!

Have you seen this article?

Thanks for the info and yeah would definitely engage a forester before proceeding. Was just trying to figure out if there is a rough way of valuing something like 10 acres of 20 year old trees that has no premiums left, the forest I was looking at has 66% sikta and 33% ash. Do you know in foresty is there is rule of thumb for trees planted per acre or is it individual to the forest and local soil conditions/other factors.

Also on walnut I thought Id read before that a black walnut tree can be mature in 30-35 years, maybe thats totally wrong though.

Saw that on the news last night, absolute disgrace.

How the hell can Pippa Hackett retain her ministership off that kind of performance?

The forest service themselves need a complete overhaul and put in people that can come up with better initiatives..they are a law onto themselves currently...no minister can seem to change their mentality.

some recent prices in that thread above. But it will vary hugely based on location, access etc as haulage is expensive. Timber is at a record high at the moment (or was at least 6-12 months ago) not sure where it’s at now.

I'ts a manageable bit,

If you take care when felling to create the right conditions, replanting may not be needed as you may get natural regeneration, with the advantage that other species may grow along with the seeds from the standing crop.

A polytunnel on site is a fast cheap way to dry timber in one season.

Consider perhaps thinning the whole area over the first few years, and then felling smaller coupes each year thereafter with a yield of firewood, post material, pallet material, and an increasing portion of sawlog each year.

since the area is small and volumes will be small a small sawmill of your own to process and add value to whatever sawlogs you have might be a sensible approach.

japanese larch makes fantastic fence posts and is superior to sitka as firewood.

feel free to pm if you'd like a chat

tim

@divillybit, That land should have been replanted by whoever profited from the clearfell. Not an uncommon occurrence however. As it is, it's a liability. The €4,500/ac you mention in your 1st post, would be reasonable for a decent piece of healthy forestry. Your best bet would be to enlist a forester to evaluate it for you. We had a plantation valued professionally and ended up bidding about half of the asking price, and got it!

As far as buying and managing your own plantation, I can't recommend it enough. Having that fuel security is number one but the amenity value for you and your family shouldn't be underestimated. I would suggest that the distance from your base should be as short as possible to get the maximum use out of it.