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Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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Comments

  • #602
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Cabaal wrote:
    If he said black people should go to hell would you still defend him?
    That's not even closer see to the same thing. You are born black, no action is involved.
    It's the sexual acts of homosexuality that he was saying will send you to hell not the fact that a person is gay.


  • #603
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    eagle eye wrote: »
    That's not even closer see to the same thing. You are born black, no action is involved.
    It's the sexual acts of homosexuality that he was saying will send you to hell not the fact that a person is gay.

    That really isn't what he said in the slightest.


  • #604
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    robinph wrote:
    That really isn't what he said in the slightest.
    Really, what did he say then?


  • #605
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Really, what did he say then?

    https://scontent-lhr3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/8e7c839a8d49d5794af6e80b77c60acc/5D9E33DB/t51.2885-15/e35/55736850_413307239403376_7823342407742317428_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.cdninstagram.com

    No mention of a difference between being gay or participating in gay sex.


  • #606
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    robinph wrote:
    No mention of a difference between being gay or participating in gay sex.
    It's clear to me that's it about people committing acts from that.


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  • #607
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    eagle eye wrote: »
    It's clear to me that's it about people committing acts from that.

    Why so? Reason I ask is a good friend of my daughter's is gay and identifies as such but being quite young is less likely to be sexually active. She also plays rugby and is a Christian FWIW.

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  • #608
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    smacl wrote:
    Why so? Reason I ask is a good friend of my daughter's is gay and identifies as such but being quite young is less likely to be sexually active. She also plays rugby and is a Christian FWIW.
    Fornicators, adulterers, those are sinful acts according to his religious beliefs. He is asking them all to repent for their sins.
    I'm not religious, I don't agree with him either but imo hey s entitled to his opinion and beliefs.
    He is being prevented from playing for his country because of his religious beliefs.


  • #609
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Fornicators, adulterers, those are sinful acts according to his religious beliefs. He is asking them all to repent for their sins.
    I'm not religious, I don't agree with him either but imo hey s entitled to his opinion and beliefs.
    He is being prevented from playing for his country because of his religious beliefs.

    I've zero sympathy for him. While I'm not gay, I am an atheist which actually involves doing nothing other than not subscribing to his religion. So by not doing anything, he is telling me that I will be damned for all eternity? Now that's a belief he's entitled to hold, but even though it is entirely specious from my point of view, it is also clearly insulting. I can fully understand why his employer, who actively promote inclusivity, would not want him broadcasting this guff over public media as a member of the national team.

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  • #610
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,006 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    eagle eye wrote: »
    He is being prevented from playing for his country because of his religious beliefs.

    no he is not.

    he broke his contract because of his broadcasting of his discriminatory views..... after been warned previously.

    he could have still held his religious beliefs and played on with no problem.

    Therefore he himself is the reason he cannot play for his country, so if he wants to point a finger at who is preventing him from playing all he has to do is find a mirror.


  • #611
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    I've zero sympathy for him. While I'm not gay, I am an atheist which actually involves doing nothing other than not subscribing to his religion. So by not doing anything, he is telling me that I will be damned for all eternity? Now that's a belief he's entitled to hold, but even though it is entirely specious from my point of view, it is also clearly insulting. I can fully understand why his employer, who actively promote inclusivity, would not want him broadcasting this guff over public media as a member of the national team.

    Why exactly is it insulting for you as an atheist that someone believes you will be damned for all eternity in a place you don't believe in?


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  • #612
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    no he is not.

    he broke his contract because of his broadcasting of his discriminatory views..... after been warned previously.

    he could have still held his religious beliefs and played on with no problem.

    Therefore he himself is the reason he cannot play for his country, so if he wants to point a finger at who is preventing him from playing all he has to do is find a mirror.

    Exactement. Amazing and ironic how people persist in seeing this as discriminatory. If it's the man serving you a pint in the local who is spouting this nonsense, then no problem. If it's a world renowned rugby star, it's a completely different matter. I think some people are wilfully blind to this simple fact.


  • #613
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    sydthebeat wrote:
    he could have still held his religious beliefs and played on with no problem.
    I don't know what age you are but 30 years ago if you were gay in this country you were told to keep your mouth shut and don't tell anybody.
    Do you think that was fair?
    Do you think it's fair to tell anybody to do that?
    Regardless of his contract he should still be allowed play for his country. Preventing him because of his religious beliefs is wrong.
    If he went on social media and said godl loves all gay people would he lose his job? I don't think so.


  • #614
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I don't know what age you are but 30 years ago if you were gay in this country you were told to keep your mouth shut and don't tell anybody.
    Do you think that was fair?
    Do you think it's fair to tell anybody to do that?
    Regardless of his contract he should still be allowed play for his country. Preventing him because of his religious beliefs is wrong.
    If he went on social media and said godl loves all gay people would he lose his job? I don't think so.

    In actual fact, 30 years ago homosexuality was illegal in this country.


  • #615
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,006 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I don't know what age you are but 30 years ago if you were gay in this country you were told to keep your mouth shut and don't tell anybody.
    Do you think that was fair?
    Do you think it's fair to tell anybody to do that?
    Regardless of his contract he should still be allowed play for his country. Preventing him because of his religious beliefs is wrong.
    If he went on social media and said godl loves all gay people would he lose his job? I don't think so.

    i really dont know what point your trying to make here??

    you just keep repeating the same factually incorrect stuff in order to do what?? hope it sticks?

    He broke his contract.

    HE DID.

    no one else.

    is that really hard to fathom?


  • #616
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If he went on social media and said godl loves all gay people would he lose his job? I don't think so.

    How would saying "god loves gay people" be taken as hate speech?

    However, if he had said "christians are all homophobes" then I'd equally expect him to have been sacked and out of a job.


  • #617
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robinph wrote: »
    How would saying "god loves gay people" be taken as hate speech?

    However, if he had said "christians are all homophobes" then I'd equally expect him to have been sacked and out of a job.
    We have had posters on this thread saying the contents of the Catechism of the Catholic church is homophobic hate speech.
    Is there a penalty for that?
    Its a fine line between saying that the doctrine is homophobic hate speech, and saying people who subscribe to the doctrine are homophobes.
    I'm not sure that line in the sand even exists, in reality.


  • #618
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why exactly is it insulting for you as an atheist that someone believes you will be damned for all eternity in a place you don't believe in?

    Intent. Say I said to you in all seriousness that I don't like your behaviour, and unless you did as I asked you were going to suffer terribly for it. That is a still a threat and an insult even if it you don't believe what I'm saying. It is also deeply disrespectful, in that I'm entitled to my freedom of religious belief and this is a threat that attempts to deny that. As Nobelium commented earlier, Christians should be, and in my opinion for the most are, concerned about their own sins first and foremost and be less concerned about trampling on the beliefs of others.

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  • #619
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Folau's whole problem, is that he failed to grasp one of the most basic concepts of Christianity.

    Christianity is not about what other people are doing and not doing, it's about what you yourself, are doing and not doing.

    I agree with this for the most part, but note that Christianity has a strong tradition of evangelizing and proselytizing through the likes of missions. Those involved in such activity show a clear lack of respect for other people's beliefs and as such do not have my respect.

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  • #620
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Intent.
    The intent is Repent. They mean well.
    Christians have been going around for the last two thousand years trying to "save" other people.
    We know this. Its nothing new.


  • #621
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    I agree with this for the most part, but note that Christianity has a strong tradition of evangelizing and proselytizing through the likes of missions. Those involved in such activity show a clear lack of respect for other people's beliefs and as such do not have my respect.
    This is nonsense. You might as well say Coca Cola and Pepsi show a lack of respect for each other, by not respecting each others established markets.


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  • #622
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    The intent is Repent. They mean well.
    Christians have been going around for the last two thousand years trying to "save" other people.
    We know this. Its nothing new.

    That they've been doing it for years is no excuse. Saying repent is saying that their belief system is right and every contradictory belief is wrong. Saying repent or go to hell is adding a threat to give weight to that argument. Yes, to you or me it is an empty threat, but it is a threat nonetheless.

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  • #623
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    That they've been doing it for years is no excuse. Saying repent is saying that their belief system is right...
    And all of a sudden this has become hate speech?


  • #624
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    This is nonsense. You might as well say Coca Cola and Pepsi show a lack of respect for each other, by not respecting each others established markets.

    Indeed, and while their marketing is pushy, I don't remember Coke or Pepsi suggesting I'd suffer for all eternity if I didn't buy their product. As a civilised society we don't allow that kind of nonsense, yet Christianity and Islam are allowed do this with impunity.

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  • #625
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,105 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    And all of a sudden this has become hate speech?

    It has always been hateful. The difference is that as society has progressed we now call it out as such and have become intolerant of it.

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  • #626
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    smacl wrote: »
    Indeed, and while their marketing is pushy, I don't remember Coke or Pepsi suggesting I'd suffer for all eternity if I didn't buy their product. As a civilised society we don't allow that kind of nonsense, yet Christianity and Islam are allowed do this with impunity.

    Well, companies are pulled up on their advertising when they go a step too far with their claims and what their product can do for you, or what will happen to you if you don't use their product.


  • #627
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    recedite wrote: »
    We have had posters on this thread saying the contents of the Catechism of the Catholic church is homophobic hate speech.
    Is there a penalty for that?
    Its a fine line between saying that the doctrine is homophobic hate speech, and saying people who subscribe to the doctrine are homophobes.
    I'm not sure that line in the sand even exists, in reality.

    It is hate speech. To suggest that a cohort of people should be burnt for eternity just because they were born with a certain sexual orientation isn't exactly very 'Christian'. Sounds like hate to me.


  • #628
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,865 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    sydthebeat wrote:
    He broke his contract.
    What line exactly in his contract did he break?


  • #629
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,006 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    eagle eye wrote: »
    What line exactly in his contract did he break?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ISRAEL+FOLAU+FIRED+FOR+BREACH+OF+CONTRACT&rlz=1C1AZAA_enIE750IE750&oq=ISRAEL+FOLAU+FIRED+FOR+BREACH+OF+CONTRACT&aqs=chrome..69i57.6935j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    go find out for yourself :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #630
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    eagle eye wrote: »
    What line exactly in his contract did he break?
    Its the question nobody seems to be able to answer.


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  • #631
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,006 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    recedite wrote: »
    Its the question nobody seems to be able to answer.

    do you honestly think someone random on the internet would have access to the wording of a private employment document??

    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    god bless but your naivety is boundless :P


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