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Going solar without grant

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    #32
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    phester28 wrote: »
    OK Can you tell me where you purchase for that price as online solartricity.ie is the cheapest retailer stocking the solis range.

    Its a little different if your compaing a large install to a small install as obviously things scale different.

    I'm trying to spec a 1kw (most I can fit on my flat roof)SE facing for a self install. I will loose production at 3.30pm as the house overshadows the roof. UNless I face East. At some point in the future I can then justify going for the grant for my main roof east west and getting a professional install done.

    Dunno where unkle bought his, but I got my Solis 700 (BNIB) on eBay for around 140 delivered.

    If you've a shadow at 3.30pm you should really consider relocating the panels. Almost half a day's sunshine will be lost. I've a shadow starting around 6.30pm and it bugs the crap out of me that when our demand is highest (6.30pm till 10.30pm) I've literally nothing. Panels are on the shed roof at the back of the house and it's the shadow from the house that's the problem.


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    #33
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Just a reminder that Sun is not guaranteed 6am to 10pm.
    You can have a full coverage and harvest in the morning and then nothing in the afternoon...or...exactly the opposite way .

    My solar takes nicely from 6:30am until 6:30pm (based on current urban estate location and summer months).
    It will be a serious issue if the shadow will overcast earlier in the day.
    Winter time,after 3pm,forget it...mostly when you need it.


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    #34
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    my issue is flat roof is east facing. so house is going to over shadow. My shed could fit two panels (south) but then a telegraph pole comes into play which would kill it. The only "normal" setup I could install is main roof east and west. But not sure how many panels could go there (hopefully 4 east and 4 west) so not ready to go that far yet.

    I would have thought that production from an east or west would only be productive for each for half of the day. so I was not concerned about the 3pm shut down. Of course if I had a south facing roof then I would be looking for an all day sun.

    Flat roof I'm trying to find out if Renusol ConSole+ (expensive plastic bucket) 48GBP is worth it or ValkBox 3 - flat roof - kit - 20° tilt 25GBP. But you need to purchase ballast for which would be more expensive for the valkbox. Paving slabs vs just sand for the former

    Ebay at the moment is just mad. so no value there.

    If you started small did you install all the required fireman switch etc. or did you just go with the min DC/AC isolator and tell no one? :)


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    #35
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    @phester

    I do feel the pain and hear the confusion… been there myself.
    Took me couple of months to analyse and decide which way and how.
    Actually took me a while to find my old thread H E R E.

    You are the only one that can decide and weigh plus and minuses... do your home work properly and then go for it. Take in consideration coverage, shadow, angles for Sun radiation, day and times for harvesting across year, months, days and hours.
    Shadows and installation is a big killer. Could compromise output and jeopardise the performance.

    Enjoy the adventure... ;)


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    #36
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    phester28 wrote: »
    The only "normal" setup I could install is main roof east and west. But not sure how many panels could go there (hopefully 4 east and 4 west) so not ready to go that far yet.

    If I were you I would reconsider. Your shadowed smaller setups are severely compromised. You'll just be wasting your money. That 4E 4W setup is ideal for production spread throughout the day, pity you can't go any bigger, but it's a very decent setup.

    I got my Solis from a reputable UK based eBay seller. Brand spanking new it was, but it took me a while to find this good a deal. If money is tight, you could go for an older second hand high quality SMA sunny boy dual MPPT inverter, some of them (not the really old ones) have the Irish EN50438 cert


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    #37
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    unkel wrote: »
    I got my Solis from a reputable UK based eBay seller. Brand spanking new it was, but it took me a while to find this good a deal. If money is tight, you could go for an older second hand high quality SMA sunny boy dual MPPT inverter, some of them (not the really old ones) have the Irish EN50438 cert

    When you installed yourself did you just fill in the ESB form and send it in to inform them you were generating or does an electrician need to do any of this?


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    #38
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    An electrician installed my inverter. Not sure if he sent in any forms.


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    #39
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Mr Q wrote: »
    When you installed yourself did you just fill in the ESB form and send it in to inform them you were generating or does an electrician need to do any of this?

    Y O U are the owner of the MPRN so you have to do it...
    Form attached.

    481064.jpg


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    #40
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    rolion wrote: »
    Y O U are the owner of the MPRN so you have to do it...
    Form attached.

    481064.jpg

    Thanks for that rolion. You don't have to pay for the import/export meter I assume if you don't want to. The form looks very simple.


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    #41
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Just so I have it right

    Buy the hardware, get a roofer for the panels and a competentspark for the wiring.


    Has anyone a breakdown on installation costs (roughly) for say a 16 panel set up.


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    #42
    jimmyging
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭jimmyging


    Having looked at the options for my set up its 6kw roof mounted array ,5 kw hybrid inverter and 5.6 kw battery I could do as you say and self manage it without the grant .But I do think it will cost the same by going with a contractor to do the lot with the grant and with less hassle ,AND you can blame someone other than yourself it goes wrong .
    I do think a lot of the installers are just taking the grant as their profit on this .


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    #43
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    jimmyging wrote: »
    Having looked at the options for my set up its 6kw roof mounted array ,5 kw hybrid inverter and 5.6 kw battery I could do as you say and self manage it without the grant .But I do think it will cost the same by going with a contractor

    Maybe so, I guess above would cost about €8k after grant?

    You could go without the grant and install a 6kwp system without a battery for not a lot more than €3k though after paying a roofer to install the panels and an electrician to hook it up.
    tatranska wrote: »
    Has anyone a breakdown on installation costs (roughly) for say a 16 panel set up.

    Depends how good you are at buying stuff. I would have targets:

    inverter €250
    panels 16*€105 = €1680
    roofer €350
    electrician €200
    other materials €300

    total €2780


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    #44
    jimmyging
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭jimmyging


    unkel wrote: »
    Maybe so, I guess above would cost about €8k after grant?

    You could go without the grant and install a 6kwp system without a battery for not a lot more than €3k though after paying a roofer to install the panels and an electrician to hook it up.



    Depends how good you are at buying stuff. I would have targets:

    inverter €250
    panels 16*€105 = €1680
    roofer €350
    electrician €200
    other materials €300

    total €2780

    Thanks unkel
    I think your targets are over optimistic in reality . A quick search for a 5 kw hybrid inverter on eBay is around €1000 delivered . I don’t know what type of roofer you would realistically get for €350 especially if they have to mount scaffolding etc . Electricians are about €35 / hour so maybe you could do it for €200 .
    But your own time in all this is another thing altogether. It’s all very well to say you could pull it all together but it’s a lot of project management etc .
    Going solo is not for the faint hearted . I think being more realistic it would cost around 5 k going solo so yes there would be big savings to be made even at that .


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    #45
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    For self consumption of the units generated people are recommending an East/West setup. If possible would having the panels flat be the best way to spread the generation throughout the day?

    I'm basing the above on some figures from the EU PVGIS calculator. If you enter your panels are facing East or West on this it will recommended a zero degree slope.


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    #46
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    jimmyging wrote: »
    Thanks unkel
    I think your targets are over optimistic in reality

    Nope. The prices I paid were actually those targets or less. All brand new. Good quality products. Industry standard as fitted by most SEAI installers. And I didn't pay an electrician, a friend did it for free. No hybrid inverter though, they are still very expensive and you only need one if you want to have battery storage on the DC side (I'm going AC side)

    But I do pride myself in getting good value for money. It's a sport to me. A challenge. And I'm rather good at it :D


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    #47
    randombar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭randombar


    1.4 MWh generated since installed at the start of the year. Didn't go grant.

    If I was doing it again I might go with the ac side battery install.

    Have issues with the car taking battery charge during the day.

    Couple of years I might put a few more up.

    Would love to do something with wind to balance the system more but no way that makes financial sense at the minute.


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    #48
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    If I was doing it again I might go with the ac side battery install.

    You have a DC side battery install, right?

    Why would you go AC? Because of issues with the Zappi EV charger not working well with DC side battery install (hybrid inverter)?


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    #49
    randombar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭randombar


    unkel wrote: »
    You have a DC side battery install, right?

    Why would you go AC? Because of issues with the Zappi EV charger not working well with DC side battery install (hybrid inverter)?

    Yes. 3.3 kw install split se and sw. 3.6 Solis hybrid inverter tied to a 2.4 kwh battery.

    Zappi issues and I like the idea of different hardware doing different things.

    Spreads the risk of failure and gives more control.


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    #50
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yes, I'm going AC side battery setup myself. It's cheaper too (a bit). Hybrid inverters are just outrageously expensive still. AC is less efficient though as to get electrons into the battery the DC from your solar was initially inverted to AC. Then the AC battery inverter has to rectify it to DC.

    One problem with AC side is that the max power output of the inverter is added to the max power output of your solar panels and the sum of the two is not allowed to exceed 6kW. It's ridiculous really, but an SEAI installer will have to stick to that rule if you're going for an install with a grant


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    #51
    kellxor.1337
    Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭kellxor.1337


    Jakey Rolling wrote: »
    especially without feed in tariff. .

    Will this ever change in Ireland realistically ?


    My wife and I just received planning permission ( that we didn't think we would get ) but the house is kinda on hold now as we are expecting our 1st child in October.

    I still need to do some homework on the renewable's and the heating etc as instructed by the wife.

    Will be building a north facing house ( 160 Sq M )
    Roof will be an East/West slope so was hoping to install solar PV and use this to power the Heat Pump ( Air to water ) and the rest of electrical needs ( that i can scrounge out of the panels ). In my foolishness, I assumed batteries to store what it generated would be cheap if purchased with the panels and any additional equipment needed. I have heard of some crazy prices from installers so i was looking at a UK website to purchase from that offer what appears to be great prices

    e.g -
    1 row of 4 – Portrait

    4 x Perlight PLM 320M-60 – 320w Mono (Black Frame/White Backsheet) – 1640 x 992 x 35mm

    1 x Growatt 1500S Mini – Single Tracker – Single Phase Inverter

    2 x AC Isolators

    2 x DC Isolators

    1 x Single Phase Generation Meter

    50m x 4mm Black PV Cable

    2 x Pairs – MC4 Connectors

    1 x Set – Solar Warning Labels

    4 x Rail – 2.1m – Black

    10 x Roof Hook – Concrete Tiles (please specify if different roof hooks are required)

    2 x Rail Splice

    6 x Mid Clamp (35mm – Black)

    4 x End Clamp (35mm – Black)

    4 x Rail End Cap – Black

    Perlight Solar PV modules comply with: IEC61730 and ISO09001 and ISO14000 certified factory
    Twenty five year warranty on power output. Twelve year manufacturing guarantee.

    Twenty year warranty on mounting system

    Ten year warranty on Growatt Inverters


    Approx €1,150 + vat
    Assuming i will need 2 sets, €2,300 + Vat seems like a bargain ( Naive i know ) I'd say i could probably get somebody reputable near where i live to install for 1000-1500


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    #52
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    Based on the news this morning it looks like the FIT is coming. Is there any chance this will be for new connections of solar only? Don't want to connect and then be refused this.


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    #53
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    kellxor.1337 wrote: »
    Will this ever change in Ireland realistically ?


    My wife and I just received planning permission ( that we didn't think we would get ) but the house is kinda on hold now as we are expecting our 1st child in October.

    I still need to do some homework on the renewable's and the heating etc as instructed by the wife.

    Will be building a north facing house ( 160 Sq M )
    Roof will be an East/West slope so was hoping to install solar PV and use this to power the Heat Pump ( Air to water ) and the rest of electrical needs ( that i can scrounge out of the panels ). In my foolishness, I assumed batteries to store what it generated would be cheap if purchased with the panels and any additional equipment needed. I have heard of some crazy prices from installers so i was looking at a UK website to purchase from that offer what appears to be great prices

    e.g -
    1 row of 4 – Portrait

    4 x Perlight PLM 320M-60 – 320w Mono (Black Frame/White Backsheet) – 1640 x 992 x 35mm

    1 x Growatt 1500S Mini – Single Tracker – Single Phase Inverter

    2 x AC Isolators

    2 x DC Isolators

    1 x Single Phase Generation Meter

    50m x 4mm Black PV Cable

    2 x Pairs – MC4 Connectors

    1 x Set – Solar Warning Labels

    4 x Rail – 2.1m – Black

    10 x Roof Hook – Concrete Tiles (please specify if different roof hooks are required)

    2 x Rail Splice

    6 x Mid Clamp (35mm – Black)

    4 x End Clamp (35mm – Black)

    4 x Rail End Cap – Black

    Perlight Solar PV modules comply with: IEC61730 and ISO09001 and ISO14000 certified factory
    Twenty five year warranty on power output. Twelve year manufacturing guarantee.

    Twenty year warranty on mounting system

    Ten year warranty on Growatt Inverters


    Approx €1,150 + vat
    Assuming i will need 2 sets, €2,300 + Vat seems like a bargain ( Naive i know ) I'd say i could probably get somebody reputable near where i live to install for 1000-1500

    I think you'll find better value from a kit perspective on a wholesale basis on one of the main wholesale solar companies in Ireland. This wholesaler supplies uses mainly solis inverters and prices are online


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    #54
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Mr Q wrote: »
    Based on the news this morning it looks like the FIT is coming. Is there any chance this will be for new connections of solar only? Don't want to connect and then be refused this.
    I don't see how they could refuse this to existing connections. As far as I know, it is due to become mandatory under the EU RE Directive anyhow.


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    #55
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    quentingargan wrote: »
    I don't see how they could refuse this to existing connections. As far as I know, it is due to become mandatory under the EU RE Directive anyhow.

    I hope you're right but I wouldn't rule it out. If they could get away with it they will consider it.


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    #56
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭threeball


    unkel wrote: »
    A roofer putting up 10 panels in a straight forward configuration should cost you no more than €250 in labour. An electrician mounting your inverter and connecting it to the grid should cost no more than €200 in labour. Get all the parts needed at good prices and you are up and running for less money than a subsidised (grant) system with overinflated prices, BER certs, other unnecessary bits, etc.

    If you are going to stay in your home for the next 15+ years, you will save money with this. Possibly quite a lot of money if prices of electricity go up, if we will get a feed in tariff, if prices of batteries that you might add will come down, etc. All these ifs are quite likely to happen. And then there is of course the feeling good about having zero emissions renewables. The opposite of having a cancer causing diesel car.

    I'd have an issue with your pricing if I'm honest.
    Who's going to work for the rates you quote there. I don't think you'd get anyone but the local bodger. €250 for a days work for 2 roofers because it's a two man job or else it's one man for two days. That's €125 per day each to a self employed person paying insurance, van, tax to government, no social safety net and no holiday pay. I think people in this country have a very unrealistic view of what the cost of doing something is. Most including myself would just about be happy with €125 take home for a day yet expect someone self employed to work for the same? I know plenty of lads who work for themselves who reckon if they don't get closer to €400 per day they'd be better off on the dole and I can see why.


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    #57
    randombar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭randombar


    Mr Q wrote: »
    Based on the news this morning it looks like the FIT is coming. Is there any chance this will be for new connections of solar only? Don't want to connect and then be refused this.

    Any link to that news?


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    #58
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 989 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    Any link to that news?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/green-light-to-sell-solar-electricity-back-to-grid-dvwf0jbt7


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    #59
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,825 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    threeball wrote: »
    I'd have an issue with your pricing if I'm honest.
    Who's going to work for the rates you quote there. I don't think you'd get anyone but the local bodger. €250 for a days work for 2 roofers

    I might have been confusing you with my numbers, apologies for that. I paid €350 for a roofer and his apprentice for not much more than half a days work. My install was complex

    For a straight fit of a 10 panel system a roofer and his apprentice should take about 2.5-3 hours. I think it is reasonable to expect to pay no more than €250 for that


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    #60
    funnyname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭funnyname


    Mr Q wrote: »
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/green-light-to-sell-solar-electricity-back-to-grid-dvwf0jbt7

    So will the grant stay when the FIT is introduced?


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    #61
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    funnyname wrote: »
    So will the grant stay when the FIT is introduced?
    The grant is up for review every 6 months. That may mean that if other factors come into play to improve viability, it might be reduced.

    If you are thinking of doing this, I think the early adopters might win out here- subsidised installation and an export tariff.

    That said, with batteries etc., the scheme is mainly geared to maximise self-consumption. A household with 4kw PV and batteries and someone at home all day long will probably only export 1/4 of their production. The income at SEM-O prices would be €60 to €80 a year.


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