Going solar without grant

thos

Hi all,
I've a new build house in 2014 and looking to retro fit solar now, so unfortunately not eligible for the grant, but it's something we want to do anyway. Is there any other benefit of not going the grant route - ie; less paperwork, different kit or suppliers that can help make this more cost effective?
I'm not in a position to do a full DIY. I'm going to check in with my old builder to see if he's interested in taking it on, seeing as they know the place.
Any other tips or advice for a non-grant solar installation?

Thanks,
Tom

rolion

Hi,

If not capable of doing in DIY, forget it.
It will make your hair grey as the "know-how" is a major lack.
Going on third party hands, that knows nothing, it will just increase costs, reduce or minimise satisfaction and / or system performance.

Approach few suppliers and installers and get quote.
Very important is the location and the consumption , of your house and their inhabitants…

Have fun

Calahonda52

thos wrote: »

Hi all,
I've a new build house in 2014 and looking to retro fit solar now, so unfortunately not eligible for the grant, but it's something we want to do anyway. Is there any other benefit of not going the grant route - ie; less paperwork, different kit or suppliers that can help make this more cost effective?
I'm not in a position to do a full DIY. I'm going to check in with my old builder to see if he's interested in taking it on, seeing as they know the place.
Any other tips or advice for a non-grant solar installation?

Thanks,
Tom

Which solar?
Whats the rationale?

quentingargan

People were installing solar before there ever was a grant. There are savings. The grant requires a BER cert to be done, as well as a firefighter safety switch fitted (which may not be necessary if the inverter is going in the loft area). Also, yes, there is a lot of paperwork to be completed.

A good roofer should be quite capable of mounting the hooks and flashings and putting up the panels, and the rest is within the ability of many electricians.

It will, perhaps, cost a bit more than a grant aided system, but if you want to reduce your carbon emissions, return on investment may not be as important.

unkel

A roofer putting up 10 panels in a straight forward configuration should cost you no more than €250 in labour. An electrician mounting your inverter and connecting it to the grid should cost no more than €200 in labour. Get all the parts needed at good prices and you are up and running for less money than a subsidised (grant) system with overinflated prices, BER certs, other unnecessary bits, etc.

If you are going to stay in your home for the next 15+ years, you will save money with this. Possibly quite a lot of money if prices of electricity go up, if we will get a feed in tariff, if prices of batteries that you might add will come down, etc. All these ifs are quite likely to happen. And then there is of course the feeling good about having zero emissions renewables. The opposite of having a cancer causing diesel car.

thos

Ok thanks folks, time to start making some calls.

midship

unkel wrote: »

A roofer putting up 10 panels in a straight forward configuration should cost you no more than €250 in labour. An electrician mounting your inverter and connecting it to the grid should cost no more than €200 in labour. Get all the parts needed at good prices and you are up and running for less money than a subsidised (grant) system with overinflated prices, BER certs, other unnecessary bits, etc.

If you are going to stay in your home for the next 15+ years, you will save money with this. Possibly quite a lot of money if prices of electricity go up, if we will get a feed in tariff, if prices of batteries that you might add will come down, etc. All these ifs are quite likely to happen. And then there is of course the feeling good about having zero emissions renewables. The opposite of having a cancer causing diesel car.

Sorry to hijack the thread but is it possible to get the grant going the Self project manage route, 1, source & purchase equipment, 2, roofer install panels, 3, electrician connects up and certifies, 4, Get BER assessment done.. am I missing anything?

Evd-Burner

midship wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

A roofer putting up 10 panels in a straight forward configuration should cost you no more than €250 in labour. An electrician mounting your inverter and connecting it to the grid should cost no more than €200 in labour. Get all the parts needed at good prices and you are up and running for less money than a subsidised (grant) system with overinflated prices, BER certs, other unnecessary bits, etc.

If you are going to stay in your home for the next 15+ years, you will save money with this. Possibly quite a lot of money if prices of electricity go up, if we will get a feed in tariff, if prices of batteries that you might add will come down, etc. All these ifs are quite likely to happen. And then there is of course the feeling good about having zero emissions renewables. The opposite of having a cancer causing diesel car.

Sorry to hijack the thread but is it possible to get the grant going the Self project manage route, 1, source & purchase equipment, 2, roofer install panels, 3, electrician connects up and certifies, 4, Get BER assessment done.. am I missing anything?

No it's not. It has to be a registered installer and because they are registered they put the price up!

unkel

+1

You won't get the grant, but it is likely to still be a lot cheaper than with the grant using an official SEAI approved installer (provided you buy your parts well)

Gumbo

Evd-Burner wrote: »

No it's not. It has to be a registered installer and because they are registered they put the price up!

To cover costs, install, warranty, overheads, insurances etc

SteM

Haven't looked into this for years, is the direction the panels are facing still very important? Our back garden faces north west so I'm guessing there'd be little point in installing solar panels?

rolion

kceire wrote: »

To cover costs, install, warranty, overheads, insurances etc

Very much agree with you in that aspect, a business is there to make a profit,a living, at someone else's expense.

Let's try a challenge: how much was a "complete system" before the grant and AFTER the grant being introduced !?

Evd-Burner

kceire wrote: »

Evd-Burner wrote: »

No it's not. It has to be a registered installer and because they are registered they put the price up!

To cover costs, install, warranty, overheads, insurances etc

Yeah sure they have to cover costs and make a profit but that imo still doesn't justify just how high a price some are charging to install.

uck51js9zml2yt

unkel wrote: »

+1

You won't get the grant, but it is likely to still be a lot cheaper than with the grant using an official SEAI approved installer (provided you buy your parts well)

Has anyone any links to relaible parts suppliers at reasonable prices?

Can those who've gone DIY start naming some suppliers please?

phester28

https://solartricity.ie
https://www.cclcomponents.com/
http://www.rexelenergysolutions.ie

The first is the best one stop shop.

I should qualify that I have not yet purchased gear from any of the above

Uncle or some of the other frequent posters might be able to steer you better

unkel

SteM wrote: »

Haven't looked into this for years, is the direction the panels are facing still very important? Our back garden faces north west so I'm guessing there'd be little point in installing solar panels?

It depends. If your roof is steep, I wouldn't bother. But to give you an idea, on a not so steep (about 30 degree angle) pure north facing roof, the solar production is still about half of what it would be on a perfect angle pure south facing roof.

Solar panels are very cheap these days. If I was allowed (from a planning permission and from a maximum production point of view), I would plaster my street facing (north facing) roof with about 5-6kwp of solar :cool:

Jakey Rolling

In a similar position wrt grant. Would do the electrics between myself and neighbour (qualified electrician).

Have a 35degree south facing garage roof, usable area around 10m x 3.5m. The top third is fully illuminated year round, the bottom 2/3rds are in shadow for part of the day from October to March.

Trying to get my head round what max kWp it is worthwhile to install, especially without feed in tariff. Presumably battery storage pushes cost up considerably, though would hope to have electric car(s) to dump to soon enough. Also, are there controllers to deal with low output from some panels due to shading.

Will check out those suppliers suggested to get some ball park figures, thanks for the info.

rolion

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

In a similar position wrt grant. Would do the electrics between myself and neighbour (qualified electrician).

Have a 35degree south facing garage roof, usable area around 10m x 3.5m. The top third is fully illuminated year round, the bottom 2/3rds are in shadow for part of the day from October to March.

Trying to get my head round what max kWp it is worthwhile to install, especially without feed in tariff. Presumably battery storage pushes cost up considerably, though would hope to have electric car(s) to dump to soon enough. Also, are there controllers to deal with low output from some panels due to shading.

Will check out those suppliers suggested to get some ball park figures, thanks for the info.

That part in there is going to limit your options !
The shadow on the panels array will massively reduce the output deteriorating overall performance !

Jakey Rolling

In which case I have about 10m2 if fully illuminated area I can use. Presumably still worthwhile.

Also note on the lower sections, shade is only for part of the day during winter months.

KCross

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

In a similar position wrt grant. Would do the electrics between myself and neighbour (qualified electrician).

Have a 35degree south facing garage roof, usable area around 10m x 3.5m. The top third is fully illuminated year round, the bottom 2/3rds are in shadow for part of the day from October to March.

Trying to get my head round what max kWp it is worthwhile to install, especially without feed in tariff. Presumably battery storage pushes cost up considerably, though would hope to have electric car(s) to dump to soon enough. Also, are there controllers to deal with low output from some panels due to shading.

Will check out those suppliers suggested to get some ball park figures, thanks for the info.

Assuming you're not installing a battery (because yes it does push up cost alot) you should consider splitting your panels across multiple orientations.

If you put the whole lot south facing you will have huge excess at the times you dont need it.

Put some of it west facing (if you can) and then you will have power when you get home and can consume it. Without a battery its all about self consumption, not about getting the max kWp from your panels.

i.e. If you have, say 6kWp of panels... its better to split that across two orientations... say 3kWp south and 3kWp west and then consume as much of that as you can than to have 6kW being generated at noon when you are at work!... its a balancing act and it depends very much on your lifestyle and circumstances and what appliances etc you plan to use to consume the energy

rolion

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

In which case I have about 10m2 if fully illuminated area I can use. Presumably still worthwhile.

Also note on the lower sections, shade is only for part of the day during winter months.

I suggest do some homework before comitting.
More H E R E

Nice pictures and refrences H E R E

Out of the total installed power AND due to shading AND in winter months when Sun is lower in the sky... you could be disappointed.
Don't shoot the messenger...

rolion

unkel wrote: »

It depends. If your roof is steep, I wouldn't bother. But to give you an idea, on a not so steep (about 30 degree angle) pure north facing roof, the solar production is still about half of what it would be on a perfect angle pure south facing roof.

Solar panels are very cheap these days. If I was allowed (from a planning permission and from a maximum production point of view), I would plaster my street facing (north facing) roof with about 5-6kwp of solar :cool:

Tought that myself,north facing is my back of the house.
It just didnt passed the maths test figures,very long return and needs a dedicated inverter so that my existing two arrays will work efficient.
With a single inverter and two arrays (South good and North bad) i can assume that MPPT work will be hard and results not so good (for your pocket).

Planning permission, let's be serios,who is going to lodge an appeal for solar panels size or coverage !? Unless you stretch to your lovely neighbour roof boundary,i see no issues here.

Any figures,toughts ,i can be wrong ?

unkel

It doesn't pass the maths test if you can't use enough of the production. Same as with any solar PV install. Things would change if you have access to a very large battery (like an EV or the grid with a FIT). I'd happily install another 5kwp north facing if my roof wasn't so steep and if I got a FIT of 9c/kWh - revenue €225 per year, cost of materials of the install about €2,500

rolion wrote: »

Planning permission, let's be serios,who is going to lodge an appeal for solar panels size or coverage !? Unless you stretch to your lovely neighbour roof boundary,i see no issues here.

You would be wrong there. Did you not follow the case last year when a lady who had (neatly) plastered the full road facing side of her roof with PV? She was forced to take it down (after appeal)

Linky

Alkers

KCross wrote:

Assuming you're not installing a battery (because yes it does push up cost alot) you should consider splitting your panels across multiple orientations.

What's the situation in terms of distance between the two arrays?
I.e. I have a South facing house roof which I could fit about ten panels on but then I have a (slightly sloped - almost flat) north facing garage roof which might be able to mount some panels in easterly or westerly (or both) orientations. Would this be viable? The garage is maybe 15m from the back of the house

unkel

Yes perfectly viable. You will need an inverter that can take dual strings. This is far more efficient than connecting the lot of in one big string. You need to carefully look at the data sheet before you buy an inverter though, there will be a minimum voltage per string, under which the inverter simply won't work (for that string)

I.e. the very popular Solis dual MPPT have a minimum voltage of 90V for every string. If you connect just 2 (36V) panels in a string, that string will not produce anything. But with 3 panels you'll be fine. How many panels can you fit on your garage?

The distance isn't that important within reason. 15m-20m from the panels to the inverter is fine.

Alkers

unkel wrote:

How many panels can you fit on your garage?

Could definitely fit three anyway. I'd say I'd fit 8 if they faced north but it would make more sense to face them east and west if that's possible on a slightly sloped roof.

phester28

I think from looking at the data sheet for solis the smaller inverters (up to 1kw) have a startup of 60 volts. In which case it might be better for Simona to get one string up and running and get a second string at a later date with its own inverter too?

I am still trying to find out if a panel micro inverter is a cheaper way to go. As I think it needs less cabling and Isolators, Firemans switch etc.

unkel

Micro inverters are more expensive and when one dies, you need to get onto the roof to replace it. Also I wouldn't recommend two inverters for two strings. Far cheaper and more efficient to go with a dual MPPT inverter like the Solis range. According to the spec sheet, you need a minimum 100V per string, but in practice this threshold is a lot lower. My second string is 3 west facing panels. And nominally they would be a bit over 100V, but in practice this regularly dips below 90V and the panels are still producing (there are amps showing)

phester28

my reasearch to date says otherwise.

BPE-MI-1300-EU-IR BPE 4 Port Microinverter €234.00 is a 1300w inverter. for a flat roof install it handles 4 panels so its not exactly a micro inverter but is panel mounted.


the solis 1kw string inverter is 288+vat. now you will at least be able to get some production data from the display and the wifi is not alot. I have not got a price for the comms mod for the BPE above but I have seen elsewhere that it is a silly cost.

from the datasheet:
https://static.solartricity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Solis-Mini-1000W-4G.pdf

satartup voltage for the smaller ranges is 60V and then it can fall to 50V. Above 1.5Kwh the startup voltage goes to 90V and can drop to 80V

I am going to see if the panel inverter (supplier says no need) actually can do without the fireman isolation switch and then see if a DC isolator is necessary, using 4 panels 2 x 2 in parallel to keep voltages to an "almost" safe DC level.

unkel

phester28 wrote: »

my reasearch to date says otherwise.

BPE-MI-1300-EU-IR BPE 4 Port Microinverter €234.00 is a 1300w inverter. for a flat roof install it handles 4 panels

That's €59 per panel

I paid €250 for my brand new Solis dual MPPT 3.6kW including VAT and shipping. Using it with two strings, total of 13 panels

That's €19 per panel...

phester28

OK Can you tell me where you purchase for that price as online solartricity.ie is the cheapest retailer stocking the solis range.

Its a little different if your compaing a large install to a small install as obviously things scale different.

I'm trying to spec a 1kw (most I can fit on my flat roof)SE facing for a self install. I will loose production at 3.30pm as the house overshadows the roof. UNless I face East. At some point in the future I can then justify going for the grant for my main roof east west and getting a professional install done.

n97 mini

phester28 wrote: »

OK Can you tell me where you purchase for that price as online solartricity.ie is the cheapest retailer stocking the solis range.

Its a little different if your compaing a large install to a small install as obviously things scale different.

I'm trying to spec a 1kw (most I can fit on my flat roof)SE facing for a self install. I will loose production at 3.30pm as the house overshadows the roof. UNless I face East. At some point in the future I can then justify going for the grant for my main roof east west and getting a professional install done.

Dunno where unkle bought his, but I got my Solis 700 (BNIB) on eBay for around 140 delivered.

If you've a shadow at 3.30pm you should really consider relocating the panels. Almost half a day's sunshine will be lost. I've a shadow starting around 6.30pm and it bugs the crap out of me that when our demand is highest (6.30pm till 10.30pm) I've literally nothing. Panels are on the shed roof at the back of the house and it's the shadow from the house that's the problem.

rolion

Just a reminder that Sun is not guaranteed 6am to 10pm.
You can have a full coverage and harvest in the morning and then nothing in the afternoon...or...exactly the opposite way .

My solar takes nicely from 6:30am until 6:30pm (based on current urban estate location and summer months).
It will be a serious issue if the shadow will overcast earlier in the day.
Winter time,after 3pm,forget it...mostly when you need it.

phester28

my issue is flat roof is east facing. so house is going to over shadow. My shed could fit two panels (south) but then a telegraph pole comes into play which would kill it. The only "normal" setup I could install is main roof east and west. But not sure how many panels could go there (hopefully 4 east and 4 west) so not ready to go that far yet.

I would have thought that production from an east or west would only be productive for each for half of the day. so I was not concerned about the 3pm shut down. Of course if I had a south facing roof then I would be looking for an all day sun.

Flat roof I'm trying to find out if Renusol ConSole+ (expensive plastic bucket) 48GBP is worth it or ValkBox 3 - flat roof - kit - 20° tilt 25GBP. But you need to purchase ballast for which would be more expensive for the valkbox. Paving slabs vs just sand for the former

Ebay at the moment is just mad. so no value there.

If you started small did you install all the required fireman switch etc. or did you just go with the min DC/AC isolator and tell no one?

rolion

@phester

I do feel the pain and hear the confusion… been there myself.
Took me couple of months to analyse and decide which way and how.
Actually took me a while to find my old thread H E R E.

You are the only one that can decide and weigh plus and minuses... do your home work properly and then go for it. Take in consideration coverage, shadow, angles for Sun radiation, day and times for harvesting across year, months, days and hours.
Shadows and installation is a big killer. Could compromise output and jeopardise the performance.

Enjoy the adventure...

unkel

phester28 wrote: »

The only "normal" setup I could install is main roof east and west. But not sure how many panels could go there (hopefully 4 east and 4 west) so not ready to go that far yet.

If I were you I would reconsider. Your shadowed smaller setups are severely compromised. You'll just be wasting your money. That 4E 4W setup is ideal for production spread throughout the day, pity you can't go any bigger, but it's a very decent setup.

I got my Solis from a reputable UK based eBay seller. Brand spanking new it was, but it took me a while to find this good a deal. If money is tight, you could go for an older second hand high quality SMA sunny boy dual MPPT inverter, some of them (not the really old ones) have the Irish EN50438 cert

Mr Q

unkel wrote: »

I got my Solis from a reputable UK based eBay seller. Brand spanking new it was, but it took me a while to find this good a deal. If money is tight, you could go for an older second hand high quality SMA sunny boy dual MPPT inverter, some of them (not the really old ones) have the Irish EN50438 cert

When you installed yourself did you just fill in the ESB form and send it in to inform them you were generating or does an electrician need to do any of this?

unkel

An electrician installed my inverter. Not sure if he sent in any forms.

rolion

Mr Q wrote: »

When you installed yourself did you just fill in the ESB form and send it in to inform them you were generating or does an electrician need to do any of this?

Y O U are the owner of the MPRN so you have to do it...
Form attached.

Mr Q

rolion wrote: »

Y O U are the owner of the MPRN so you have to do it...
Form attached.

Thanks for that rolion. You don't have to pay for the import/export meter I assume if you don't want to. The form looks very simple.

uck51js9zml2yt

Just so I have it right

Buy the hardware, get a roofer for the panels and a competentspark for the wiring.


Has anyone a breakdown on installation costs (roughly) for say a 16 panel set up.

jimmyging

Having looked at the options for my set up its 6kw roof mounted array ,5 kw hybrid inverter and 5.6 kw battery I could do as you say and self manage it without the grant .But I do think it will cost the same by going with a contractor to do the lot with the grant and with less hassle ,AND you can blame someone other than yourself it goes wrong .
I do think a lot of the installers are just taking the grant as their profit on this .

unkel

jimmyging wrote: »

Having looked at the options for my set up its 6kw roof mounted array ,5 kw hybrid inverter and 5.6 kw battery I could do as you say and self manage it without the grant .But I do think it will cost the same by going with a contractor

Maybe so, I guess above would cost about €8k after grant?

You could go without the grant and install a 6kwp system without a battery for not a lot more than €3k though after paying a roofer to install the panels and an electrician to hook it up.

tatranska wrote: »

Has anyone a breakdown on installation costs (roughly) for say a 16 panel set up.

Depends how good you are at buying stuff. I would have targets:

inverter €250
panels 16*€105 = €1680
roofer €350
electrician €200
other materials €300

total €2780

jimmyging

unkel wrote: »

Maybe so, I guess above would cost about €8k after grant?

You could go without the grant and install a 6kwp system without a battery for not a lot more than €3k though after paying a roofer to install the panels and an electrician to hook it up.



Depends how good you are at buying stuff. I would have targets:

inverter €250
panels 16*€105 = €1680
roofer €350
electrician €200
other materials €300

total €2780

Thanks unkel
I think your targets are over optimistic in reality . A quick search for a 5 kw hybrid inverter on eBay is around €1000 delivered . I don’t know what type of roofer you would realistically get for €350 especially if they have to mount scaffolding etc . Electricians are about €35 / hour so maybe you could do it for €200 .
But your own time in all this is another thing altogether. It’s all very well to say you could pull it all together but it’s a lot of project management etc .
Going solo is not for the faint hearted . I think being more realistic it would cost around 5 k going solo so yes there would be big savings to be made even at that .

Mr Q

For self consumption of the units generated people are recommending an East/West setup. If possible would having the panels flat be the best way to spread the generation throughout the day?

I'm basing the above on some figures from the EU PVGIS calculator. If you enter your panels are facing East or West on this it will recommended a zero degree slope.

unkel

jimmyging wrote: »

Thanks unkel
I think your targets are over optimistic in reality

Nope. The prices I paid were actually those targets or less. All brand new. Good quality products. Industry standard as fitted by most SEAI installers. And I didn't pay an electrician, a friend did it for free. No hybrid inverter though, they are still very expensive and you only need one if you want to have battery storage on the DC side (I'm going AC side)

But I do pride myself in getting good value for money. It's a sport to me. A challenge. And I'm rather good at it

randombar

1.4 MWh generated since installed at the start of the year. Didn't go grant.

If I was doing it again I might go with the ac side battery install.

Have issues with the car taking battery charge during the day.

Couple of years I might put a few more up.

Would love to do something with wind to balance the system more but no way that makes financial sense at the minute.

unkel

GaryCocs wrote: »

If I was doing it again I might go with the ac side battery install.

You have a DC side battery install, right?

Why would you go AC? Because of issues with the Zappi EV charger not working well with DC side battery install (hybrid inverter)?

randombar

unkel wrote: »

You have a DC side battery install, right?

Why would you go AC? Because of issues with the Zappi EV charger not working well with DC side battery install (hybrid inverter)?

Yes. 3.3 kw install split se and sw. 3.6 Solis hybrid inverter tied to a 2.4 kwh battery.

Zappi issues and I like the idea of different hardware doing different things.

Spreads the risk of failure and gives more control.

unkel

Yes, I'm going AC side battery setup myself. It's cheaper too (a bit). Hybrid inverters are just outrageously expensive still. AC is less efficient though as to get electrons into the battery the DC from your solar was initially inverted to AC. Then the AC battery inverter has to rectify it to DC.

One problem with AC side is that the max power output of the inverter is added to the max power output of your solar panels and the sum of the two is not allowed to exceed 6kW. It's ridiculous really, but an SEAI installer will have to stick to that rule if you're going for an install with a grant

kellxor.1337

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

especially without feed in tariff. .

Will this ever change in Ireland realistically ?


My wife and I just received planning permission ( that we didn't think we would get ) but the house is kinda on hold now as we are expecting our 1st child in October.

I still need to do some homework on the renewable's and the heating etc as instructed by the wife.

Will be building a north facing house ( 160 Sq M )
Roof will be an East/West slope so was hoping to install solar PV and use this to power the Heat Pump ( Air to water ) and the rest of electrical needs ( that i can scrounge out of the panels ). In my foolishness, I assumed batteries to store what it generated would be cheap if purchased with the panels and any additional equipment needed. I have heard of some crazy prices from installers so i was looking at a UK website to purchase from that offer what appears to be great prices

e.g -
1 row of 4 – Portrait

4 x Perlight PLM 320M-60 – 320w Mono (Black Frame/White Backsheet) – 1640 x 992 x 35mm

1 x Growatt 1500S Mini – Single Tracker – Single Phase Inverter

2 x AC Isolators

2 x DC Isolators

1 x Single Phase Generation Meter

50m x 4mm Black PV Cable

2 x Pairs – MC4 Connectors

1 x Set – Solar Warning Labels

4 x Rail – 2.1m – Black

10 x Roof Hook – Concrete Tiles (please specify if different roof hooks are required)

2 x Rail Splice

6 x Mid Clamp (35mm – Black)

4 x End Clamp (35mm – Black)

4 x Rail End Cap – Black

Perlight Solar PV modules comply with: IEC61730 and ISO09001 and ISO14000 certified factory
Twenty five year warranty on power output. Twelve year manufacturing guarantee.

Twenty year warranty on mounting system

Ten year warranty on Growatt Inverters


Approx €1,150 + vat
Assuming i will need 2 sets, €2,300 + Vat seems like a bargain ( Naive i know ) I'd say i could probably get somebody reputable near where i live to install for 1000-1500