Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

AngryHippie · 22-05-2019 10:35pm

recedite wrote: »

I don't like to see Folau being sacked.

It was breach of contract and negligence.
That was always going to happen.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 8:03am

troyzer wrote: »

Well by tolerate I mean allow someone to have a platform absolutely free of any consequence for what they say.

And by intolerance, in this case, I mean somebody who has an innate homophobia.

Thanks, I think that's a helpful place to start from.

When you say consequences, do you mean legal consequences? Or any consequences? I think people should expect disagreement, rebuttal, ridicule, or legal sanction, depending what they say.

A dictionary definition of tolerance is something like this: "The ability, or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behaviour that one does not necessarily agree with" Does that sound reasonable? If not, why not?

One thing I'd pick out is that tolerance presupposes disagreement. If we don't disagree then we're not tolerating one another, we're simply agreeing. Christians are not homophobic, because we do not hate or fear homosexuals. We just disagree with them. Similarly, we don't hate atheists, we just disagree.

Words have real meanings, and homophobe, bigot, intolerant, hateful all describe characteristics that are both real and ugly. You can't just throw them out and use them to silence debate just because we disagree. Doing that is, well, intolerant.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 8:14am

AngryHippie wrote: »

Another way to look at "confronting realities" that people of faith cannot contemplate is that their savior is imagined and that people have been abusing each other for millennia and hiding behind a sacred book of fairytales to exonerate themselves from their own guilt and shame.

If it all turned out to be true, religious organization itself would run contrary (particularly in it's current gilted patriarchal form) to any commonsense interpretation of Jesus' words in the gospels and we would be forgiven for shunning organized religion and keep our spirituality as a private matter between the individual and their maker.

The rest is just greed and mind control.

Thats where I've gotten to with my faith.
There is too much corruption in organizations to have any truck with them. Its just another shakedown.

When you get to that point, it's quite easy to see preachers in learjets, parish priests being sustained from the fearful elderly's meagre pensions, Rabbi's in Rolls Royces and lump it all together in a big basket of BS and carry on with your own life obeying the basic rules and knowing full well your soul is safe either way.
When that door opened in my head, there was no way back and I don't accept what I will call "Preachery" about doom or duality from anyone as they are suffering from the vanity of their own self-righteousness to tell others how to live.

Homosexuals are living their lives, they have a right to feel love, to feel loved and to enjoy both of these things without being made to feel bad or dirty or shame for it. Anyone saying otherwise really must be suffering from some deep seated delusions or a lack of intelligence or empathy.

Thanks, and I think that "religion is all just a delusion" and "spirituality is genuine, but is a private matter between the individual and their God" are both valid positions and things that we can have productive conversations about. We can disagree, and disagree sharply, but still recognise that these are important questions that are worth talking about. Name calling, or trite dismissal, is going to get us exactly nowhere.

On organised religion and wealth, I have a lot of sympathy for what you say. In fact, Jesus himself has a lot to say about those who have a veneer of religion but are really interested in serving themselves. The Christian ethic, at it's most basic, is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbour as ourselves. We are also to expect that Christians will "bear fruit in keeping with salvation." So if someone claims the name of Christian we should look at them and see if their claim stacks up, and to call out hypocrisy.

When talking about human sexuality, or any other subject for that matter, we need to ask questions like "Who are we, what are we for, and who has the right to tell us what to do?" Christians have one answer, atheists have another. Again, if we can talk about in a mutually respectful way without branding one another bigots, heretics or anything else then we will be in a much better place.

On your last comment, I agree that homosexuals and everyone else should have the right to live their lives as they wish, and I don't want to make anyone feel dirty or ashamed. That's not what Christianity is about, but the only way to explore these things and understand each other is if we can do it without name calling and trying to shout each other down.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 8:26am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well by tolerate I mean allow someone to have a platform absolutely free of any consequence for what they say.

And by intolerance, in this case, I mean somebody who has an innate homophobia.

Thanks, I think that's a helpful place to start from.

When you say consequences, do you mean legal consequences? Or any consequences? I think people should expect disagreement, rebuttal, ridicule, or legal sanction, depending what they say.

A dictionary definition of tolerance is something like this: "The ability, or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behaviour that one does not necessarily agree with" Does that sound reasonable? If not, why not?

One thing I'd pick out is that tolerance presupposes disagreement. If we don't disagree then we're not tolerating one another, we're simply agreeing. Christians are not homophobic, because we do not hate or fear homosexuals. We just disagree with them. Similarly, we don't hate atheists, we just disagree.

Words have real meanings, and homophobe, bigot, intolerant, hateful all describe characteristics that are both real and ugly. You can't just throw them out and use them to silence debate just because we disagree. Doing that is, well, intolerant.

I've said already I don't think there should be any legal consequences for what he says. I do honestly believe in free speech.

You might disagree that he's a homophobe but he is.

He and other Christians who agree with him are fundamentally starting from the position that there is something wrong with gay people, this is homophobia. It just is. Saying you don't agree with their lifestyle is just airbrushing the fact that there is something about them that you don't like which is not their fault.

It's like if you don't agree with menstruation or you disapprove of it, this is fundamentally sexist because it's a biological fact of being born a woman which isn't their fault.

You can rag on atheists all you want. Even threaten that they'll go to hell etc. It might be offensive to some people but ultimately you are only criticising their thoughts and lifestyle and I think that's fair game even if it makes you an unpleasant person.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 9:39am

troyzer wrote: »

I've said already I don't think there should be any legal consequences for what he says. I do honestly believe in free speech.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

troyzer wrote: »

You might disagree that he's a homophobe but he is.

This is an important impasse. We can keep shouting "No he isn't!" "Yes he is!" at one another, or we can try and have a conversation about why we disagree on this point.

troyzer wrote: »

He and other Christians who agree with him are fundamentally starting from the position that there is something wrong with gay people, this is homophobia. It just is. Saying you don't agree with their lifestyle is just airbrushing the fact that there is something about them that you don't like which is not their fault.

It's like if you don't agree with menstruation or you disapprove of it, this is fundamentally sexist because it's a biological fact of being born a woman which isn't their fault.

Not exactly. We are starting from the position that there is something wrong with everyone, including gay people. That is a very different thing. Gay, straight, bi, trans, black, white, male, female or anything else, Christianity clearly states that we are all broken, to the same degree. No one is better or worse than anyone else. You can disagree, you can laugh me out of it as a fool, but labeling me a homophobe and refusing to listen to anything I say is a waste of everyone's time.

troyzer wrote: »

You can rag on atheists all you want. Even threaten that they'll go to hell etc. It might be offensive to some people but ultimately you are only criticising their thoughts and lifestyle and I think that's fair game even if it makes you an unpleasant person.

Whether I am unpleasant or not is beside the point. What is important is if these things are true. If we can't talk about that without calling each other names then we're wasting our time.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 9:45am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I've said already I don't think there should be any legal consequences for what he says. I do honestly believe in free speech.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

troyzer wrote: »

You might disagree that he's a homophobe but he is.

This is an important impasse. We can keep shouting "No he isn't!" "Yes he is!" at one another, or we can try and have a conversation about why we disagree on this point.

troyzer wrote: »

He and other Christians who agree with him are fundamentally starting from the position that there is something wrong with gay people, this is homophobia. It just is. Saying you don't agree with their lifestyle is just airbrushing the fact that there is something about them that you don't like which is not their fault.

It's like if you don't agree with menstruation or you disapprove of it, this is fundamentally sexist because it's a biological fact of being born a woman which isn't their fault.

Not exactly. We are starting from the position that there is something wrong with everyone, including gay people. That is a very different thing. Gay, straight, bi, trans, black, white, male, female or anything else, Christianity clearly states that we are all broken, to the same degree. No one is better or worse than anyone else. You can disagree, you can laugh me out of it as a fool, but labeling me a homophobe and refusing to listen to anything I say is a waste of everyone's time.

troyzer wrote: »

You can rag on atheists all you want. Even threaten that they'll go to hell etc. It might be offensive to some people but ultimately you are only criticising their thoughts and lifestyle and I think that's fair game even if it makes you an unpleasant person.

Whether I am unpleasant or not is beside the point. What is important is if these things are true. If we can't talk about that without calling each other names then we're wasting our time.

You are not saying a black person is broken because they're black. That's the difference.

Or what you'd say is they're broken because they act black I suppose? That's the analogy.

I am listening to what you're saying. And it's homophobic.

Being unpleasant doesn't matter to me. I have thick skin.

robinph · 23-05-2019 9:49am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Not exactly. We are starting from the position that there is something wrong with everyone, including gay people. That is a very different thing. Gay, straight, bi, trans, black, white, male, female or anything else, Christianity clearly states that we are all broken, to the same degree. No one is better or worse than anyone else. You can disagree, you can laugh me out of it as a fool, but labeling me a homophobe and refusing to listen to anything I say is a waste of everyone's time.

If your reason for classing gay people as having something wrong with them is because they are gay then you are a homophobe.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 9:57am

robinph wrote: »

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Not exactly. We are starting from the position that there is something wrong with everyone, including gay people. That is a very different thing. Gay, straight, bi, trans, black, white, male, female or anything else, Christianity clearly states that we are all broken, to the same degree. No one is better or worse than anyone else. You can disagree, you can laugh me out of it as a fool, but labeling me a homophobe and refusing to listen to anything I say is a waste of everyone's time.

If your reason for classing gay people as having something wrong with them is because they are gay then you are a homophobe.

Exactly. It really couldn't be more obvious.

Strip the religion away and they'd see this.

If an atheist says he thinks there's something wrong with gay people because they're gay, he's a homophobe. Christians keep going back to the theology of it as if it's a get out of jail card.

It doesn't matter WHY you think gay people are broken. It's that you think it

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 10:04am

troyzer wrote: »

I am listening to what you're saying. And it's homophobic.

Thus saith the Lord.

troyzer wrote: »

You are not saying a black person is broken because they're black. That's the difference.

Or what you'd say is they're broken because they act black I suppose? That's the analogy.

No. Everyone is broken by virtue of what they are, creatures in rebellion against their creator. I don't know how else I can make myself any clearer. Everyone. All people. Including and especially me.

I've tried to engage repeatedly with you on this by asking important and relevant questions. Who decides what is right and wrong? What does it mean to be human? Why does any of this even matter?

If all you want to say in return is that Christians are homophobic bigots then that's fine. It's your right, and I gladly endorse your right to say it, and to believe whatever you want.

I'm not sure if there is any point in continuing our conversation, but I would close by saying that I honestly and sincerely do not hate atheists, and I most certainly do not hate homosexuals. My faith means that I see the world in a certain way, and means that I am obligated to believe and sometimes say hard things. Primarily, I need to say them to myself: "Remove the log from your own eye before you try and remove the speck from your brothers eye." The Apostle Paul (remember that horrible bloke?) described himself as the chief of sinners, and that is echoed by every Christian. I know myself better than I know anyone else, so I know how how deeply I am in need of a saviour. That is the context from which I speak about, comment on or criticise anyone else. If you see that as a message of hate, then so be it and I wish you all the best.

Blueshoe · 23-05-2019 10:06am

Is this 1 minute clip relevant to the conversation?
I think so

https://youtu.be/ooOELrGMn14

troyzer · 23-05-2019 10:10am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I am listening to what you're saying. And it's homophobic.

Thus saith the Lord.

troyzer wrote: »

You are not saying a black person is broken because they're black. That's the difference.

Or what you'd say is they're broken because they act black I suppose? That's the analogy.

No. Everyone is broken by virtue of what they are, creatures in rebellion against their creator. I don't know how else I can make myself any clearer. Everyone. All people. Including and especially me.

I've tried to engage repeatedly with you on this by asking important and relevant questions. Who decides what is right and wrong? What does it mean to be human? Why does any of this even matter?

If all you want to say in return is that Christians are homophobic bigots then that's fine. It's your right, and I gladly endorse your right to say it, and to believe whatever you want.

I'm not sure if there is any point in continuing our conversation, but I would close by saying that I honestly and sincerely do not hate atheists, and I most certainly do not hate homosexuals. My faith means that I see the world in a certain way, and means that I am obligated to believe and sometimes say hard things. Primarily, I need to say them to myself: "Remove the log from your own eye before you try and remove the speck from your brothers eye." The Apostle Paul (remember that horrible bloke?) described himself as the chief of sinners, and that is echoed by every Christian. I know myself better than I know anyone else, so I know how how deeply I am in need of a saviour. That is the context from which I speak about, comment on or criticise anyone else. If you see that as a message of hate, then so be it and I wish you all the best.

Are you broken because of something intrinsic to your nature that isn't your fault? Are you broken because of the colour of your skin or your height?

How can you be rebelling against your creator because of the way he created you? It's sadism at its finest.

I don't mind you saying I'm rebelling against my creator because I'm an atheist. And you can try to encourage me to find Jesus. That's fine.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about thinking something is wrong with someone because of the way they're born. And you have to own the consequences of that which include huge prejudice against LGBT people, psychologically damaging conversion therapy and an astronomical suicide rate.

The solution is to accept that everyone is different and not to think they're filthy because of it. You choose to adhere to a really hard doctrinal line and that's what makes it homophobic. I get that your religion is too important to discard because of what you perceive as societal and secular norms being against your faith. You may even have a bit of a martyrdom complex because of it.

But as long as you keep thinking this way, you are homophobic. I don't care about the intricacies of why your faith compels you to feel that way.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 10:10am

robinph wrote: »

If your reason for classing gay people as having something wrong with them is because they are gay then you are a homophobe.

Quite simply, this is not what Christians believe. It is not about being gay or straight, or any other label by which we understand ourselves or our place in the world. If a gay person magically becomes straight, it doesn't mean that they are "fixed". I don't know what else I can say that hasn't already been said. I hope I've made my understanding of the Christian position on these things clear. If you still see that as a message of hate, then so be it.

robinph · 23-05-2019 10:23am

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Quite simply, this is not what Christians believe. It is not about being gay or straight, or any other label by which we understand ourselves or our place in the world. If a gay person magically becomes straight, it doesn't mean that they are "fixed". I don't know what else I can say that hasn't already been said. I hope I've made my understanding of the Christian position on these things clear. If you still see that as a message of hate, then so be it.

But it is exactly what you've been stating through the thread. If everything else about them, other than that they are gay, is "fixed" then are they still going to hell for being gay?

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 12:12pm

troyzer wrote: »

Are you broken because of something intrinsic to your nature that isn't your fault? Are you broken because of the colour of your skin or your height?

How can you be rebelling against your creator because of the way he created you? It's sadism at its finest.

I don't mind you saying I'm rebelling against my creator because I'm an atheist. And you can try to encourage me to find Jesus. That's fine.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about thinking something is wrong with someone because of the way they're born. And you have to own the consequences of that which include huge prejudice against LGBT people, psychologically damaging conversion therapy and an astronomical suicide rate.

The solution is to accept that everyone is different and not to think they're filthy because of it. You choose to adhere to a really hard doctrinal line and that's what makes it homophobic. I get that your religion is too important to discard because of what you perceive as societal and secular norms being against your faith. You may even have a bit of a martyrdom complex because of it.

But as long as you keep thinking this way, you are homophobic. I don't care about the intricacies of why your faith compels you to feel that way.

robinph wrote: »

But it is exactly what you've been stating through the thread. If everything else about them, other than that they are gay, is "fixed" then are they still going to hell for being gay?

I've answered these questions repeatedly throughout the thread. If you've sincerely read everything I've posted, engaged with the questions I've asked and are still convinced that Christianity is homophobic, then so be it.

Clearly, capitulation is my only option. Submit or be steamrollered. You can call it a martyr complex or anything else you please, but that does seem to be what you're saying. Thanks for helping me understand where you're coming from, I can only hope that I've done the same.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 12:18pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Are you broken because of something intrinsic to your nature that isn't your fault? Are you broken because of the colour of your skin or your height?

How can you be rebelling against your creator because of the way he created you? It's sadism at its finest.

I don't mind you saying I'm rebelling against my creator because I'm an atheist. And you can try to encourage me to find Jesus. That's fine.

We're not talking about that. We're talking about thinking something is wrong with someone because of the way they're born. And you have to own the consequences of that which include huge prejudice against LGBT people, psychologically damaging conversion therapy and an astronomical suicide rate.

The solution is to accept that everyone is different and not to think they're filthy because of it. You choose to adhere to a really hard doctrinal line and that's what makes it homophobic. I get that your religion is too important to discard because of what you perceive as societal and secular norms being against your faith. You may even have a bit of a martyrdom complex because of it.

But as long as you keep thinking this way, you are homophobic. I don't care about the intricacies of why your faith compels you to feel that way.

robinph wrote: »

But it is exactly what you've been stating through the thread. If everything else about them, other than that they are gay, is "fixed" then are they still going to hell for being gay?

I've answered these questions repeatedly throughout the thread. If you've sincerely read everything I've posted, engaged with the questions I've asked and are still convinced that Christianity is homophobic, then so be it.

Clearly, capitulation is my only option. Submit or be steamrollered. You can call it a martyr complex or anything else you please, but that does seem to be what you're saying. Thanks for helping me understand where you're coming from, I can only hope that I've done the same.

Your option isn't capitulation. It's to accept that your views are inherently homophobic in western society and that while you're allowed to have them, it doesn't mean they should be respected or given a platform.

I'm not demanding that you change. I'm just trying to explain to you why your views are homophobic.

Nothing of what you said has explained how thinking something is wrong with the way someone is born isn't racism/homophobia/sexism or whatever applies in that case.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 12:39pm

troyzer wrote: »

Your option isn't capitulation. It's to accept that your views are inherently homophobic in western society and that while you're allowed to have them, it doesn't mean they should be respected or given a platform.

I'm not demanding that you change. I'm just trying to explain to you why your views are homophobic.

Nothing of what you said has explained how thinking something is wrong with the way someone is born isn't racism/homophobia/sexism or whatever applies in that case.

Ok, If that's your definition of homophobic then I guess we are. By the same measure, we must hate not just homosexuals but everyone (including ourselves) because we think there is something wrong with the way everyone is born.

robinph · 23-05-2019 12:43pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I've answered these questions repeatedly throughout the thread. If you've sincerely read everything I've posted, engaged with the questions I've asked and are still convinced that Christianity is homophobic, then so be it.

Clearly, capitulation is my only option. Submit or be steamrollered. You can call it a martyr complex or anything else you please, but that does seem to be what you're saying. Thanks for helping me understand where you're coming from, I can only hope that I've done the same.

I don't think christians are homophobic. It does appear that your version of christianity is though, which is a shame.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 12:45pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Your option isn't capitulation. It's to accept that your views are inherently homophobic in western society and that while you're allowed to have them, it doesn't mean they should be respected or given a platform.

I'm not demanding that you change. I'm just trying to explain to you why your views are homophobic.

Nothing of what you said has explained how thinking something is wrong with the way someone is born isn't racism/homophobia/sexism or whatever applies in that case.

Ok, If that's your definition of homophobic then I guess we are. By the same measure, we must hate not just homosexuals but everyone (including ourselves) because we think there is something wrong with the way everyone is born.

No, it's not the same thing. There is a protected class of person who gets abuse for how they're born in society.

This includes race, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities etc. Criticism on any of these grounds is bigotry. It just is, own it.

You are not born with a religion, taste in music, politics, palette or hobbies. You can criticise these all you want. My sister likes One Direction and I think less of her for it. I don't think less of her for being born female.

Do you see the difference?

You seem to think everyone is born with all of these characteristics innate. Which somewhat contradicts what you said earlier about how it's not God's fault we're born with flaws that he made us to act on.

So somehow we're all born broken through no fault of our own and criticism is fair but somehow it's our fault if we don't change despite some of our brokenness often being a lack of willpower or ability to change.

This is an aside obviously, I'm just listening to everything say and the more you speak the more nonsensical the entire premise of Christianity becomes. And that's without me going for the typical low hanging fruit.

robinph · 23-05-2019 12:47pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Ok, If that's your definition of homophobic then I guess we are. By the same measure, we must hate not just homosexuals but everyone (including ourselves) because we think there is something wrong with the way everyone is born.

If your basis for thinking that there is something wrong with a particular person is because of their skin colour, gender, sexuality, etc then yes the 'ism applies to you.

Cabaal · 23-05-2019 1:48pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Ok, If that's your definition of homophobic then I guess we are. By the same measure, we must hate not just homosexuals but everyone (including ourselves) because we think there is something wrong with the way everyone is born.

Honestly, I feel nothing but pity for anyone that thinks there's something wrong with the way everyone is born.

To look at everyone in such a way is just so sad, it appears your faith is a form of torture and self hatred rather then celebration of your existence and life.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 1:50pm

Cabaal wrote: »

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Ok, If that's your definition of homophobic then I guess we are. By the same measure, we must hate not just homosexuals but everyone (including ourselves) because we think there is something wrong with the way everyone is born.

Honestly, I feel nothing but pity for anyone that thinks there's something wrong with the way everyone is born.

To look at everyone in such a way is just so sad, it appears your faith is a form of torture and self hatred rather then celebration of your existence and life.

There's something wrong with the way everyone is born and it's their fault if they go to hell because there's something wrong with them.

You can't make this up. Except someone did

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 1:57pm

https://adam4d.com/intolerant/

https://adam4d.com/whos-the-bigot/

troyzer · 23-05-2019 2:07pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

https://adam4d.com/intolerant/

https://adam4d.com/whos-the-bigot/

I don't believe in silencing people with these views. I am tolerant of their ability to speak, I fail to see how this translates into actively enabling you to do so and paying a fortune for it. Which is effectively Rugby Australia's position.

However, your side of the argument advocates gay conversion therapy which is a denial of who someone is. An intolerance of their existence.

If you're against gay marriage, you are a bigot. It is a denial that the love two people share isn't real because they're different and don't subscribe to your standard of acceptable behaviour. You're allowed to be a bigot and I wouldn't shout you down which seems to be a common trend in these cartoons. They're a straw man argument.

Nobody is trying to silence you, they're just not giving your platform the respect you think it deserves.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 2:32pm

troyzer wrote: »

However, your side of the argument advocates gay conversion therapy which is a denial of who someone is. An intolerance of their existence.

For the record, I do not in any way advocate gay conversion therapy. I think it is a misguided, damaging and cruel practice, and that is not mitigated in the slightest by the fact that it may be well intentioned.

I know that some Christians do, but I think it falls well short of the call to love our neighbour.

troyzer · 23-05-2019 2:39pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

However, your side of the argument advocates gay conversion therapy which is a denial of who someone is. An intolerance of their existence.

For the record, I do not in any way advocate gay conversion therapy. I think it is a misguided, damaging and cruel practice, and that is not mitigated in the slightest by the fact that it may be well intentioned.

I know that some Christians do, but I think it falls well short of the call to love our neighbour.

Gay conversion therapy is an inevitable expression of the belief that gay people need to be saved or changed. That there's something wrong with them.

robinph · 23-05-2019 2:53pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

https://adam4d.com/intolerant/

https://adam4d.com/whos-the-bigot/

You got us, we are not tolerant of christians intolerance of gay people.

That still doesn't make you not homophobic if you are being homophobic though.

ChrisJ84 · 23-05-2019 3:54pm

robinph wrote: »

But it is exactly what you've been stating through the thread. If everything else about them, other than that they are gay, is "fixed" then are they still going to hell for being gay?

You're asking the wrong question. Christians believe that people go to hell because they are in fundamental rebellion against God. Not because they are gay, or because of any other aspect of their personality or behaviour. Anything that the Bible calls a sin is only a symptom of a more fundamental problem.

Christians see that fundamental problem as what gets "fixed" in salvation. In turn, that has consequences for every single aspect of our being - desires, thoughts, inclinations, behaviour, self identity, etc. And our sexuality. That is true of the homosexual and the heterosexual in exactly the same way and to the same degree. And has been a commonplace Christian teaching for 2000 years.

I do not think that homosexuals are disgusting, or more broken, sinful or shameful than anyone else. The very notion of taking such a position is repulsive to me.

Or to put things slightly differently, in talking about and advocating for Christianity I don't say anything different when talking to a homosexual than I do when talking to anyone else. Nor do I treat homosexuals differently than I do anyone else. Someones sexuality is irrelevant when talking about their need for salvation, and it is irrelevant as a consideration when I am seeking to love my neighbour.

As I've said already and repeatedly, if you still see me as a homophobe in spite of this then so be it, that's your right.

theological · 23-05-2019 4:09pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Honestly, I feel nothing but pity for anyone that thinks there's something wrong with the way everyone is born.

To look at everyone in such a way is just so sad, it appears your faith is a form of torture and self hatred rather then celebration of your existence and life.

If we stopped there, it would be depressing. It's where atheists would like the gospel to stop, but the gospel is much much much better than what you present. Thankfully.

The Christian gospel is a rich philosophy, which allows for a great deal of depth, consideration and nuance in negotiating life.

The Christian gospel starts with grace. Yes, we've sinned, but Jesus Christ has forgiven those who repent and believe in Him. God gives us a purpose in Him that our lives might be a light for Him in a dark world.

Matthew 5:13-16 wrote:

“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

That's thoroughly exciting and it's something that every Christian should relish in. Jesus Christ rose again so that we might be alive in Him and live not for ourselves, but to be a light for Him in His world.

That's a great privilege. He gives us His Father in heaven to pray to, a community of believers to be our family on earth.

John 15:12-17 wrote:

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

People talk about having a legacy after they die. The best legacy isn't that one of my grandchildren will remember me before I fade into nothingness. The best legacy is knowing that the gospel of Jesus will still be growing after I've died. Most of the things I work for will last for a few years at most. The work I do for the gospel will last into eternity.

We've got a Father who hears our prayers and cares for us as we seek His will first. That's exciting and radical.

Matthew 12:46-50 wrote:

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

That's a radical philosophy. Everyone in my church is my family, my mother, my father, and my brothers and sisters, and not just "my church". Also the universal family of Christians the global church.

John 16:16-24 wrote:

“A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?” So they were saying, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

The time for sorrowful Christians ended at the resurrection. Jesus Christ is alive and He has given us a relationship with Him, a task to do and a joy that the world can't take from us.

The secular materialist worldview of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and go into the ground and rot is pretty rubbish compared to this.

Cabaal · 23-05-2019 4:15pm

theological wrote: »

The Christian gospel starts with grace. Yes, we've sinned, but Jesus Christ has forgiven those who repent and believe in Him. God gives us a purpose in Him that our lives might be a light for Him in a dark world.

So you are guilty of something even though you yourself have not actually done anything wrong and by default you'll burn in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for something you yourself has not actually done wrong. In which case if you do ask for forgiveness its fantastic!

Do you not see the issue with this?

Holding an entire species guilty for something that apparently one of the species has done in the past is seriously messed up.

Something very disturbing with people accepting such a belief about themselves and others.

robinph · 23-05-2019 4:15pm

If someone is gay are they going to hell?
Is the fact that they are gay a sign of their rebellion against god?
Is it possible for them to be saved but still be gay?

Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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